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Good grief, is this not , ahem, cheating?

Brian

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"Lorren Emmerson" wrote in message
...
Are you searching for “thesis writing help”? Look no further, we give you
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"Brian Gaff" wrote in message ...

Good grief, is this not , ahem, cheating?

Of course it's cheating... How else would Americans get any qualifications
FFS !

On Sep 29, 7:37*am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:

Good grief, is this not , ahem, cheating?

Thesis have to be so many words long. Usually that means padding and
are therefore more boring than a Victorian classic novel.

They were the reason Michael Dell got rich.

Before IBM got going around the time of the Commodore, students would
pay to have their badly hand-written, paper saving, single spaced,
badly spelled drivel converted into typed paper, by desperate
masochists.

Weatherlawyer wrote:

Before IBM got going around the time of the Commodore,

I think you will find that IBM were going long before then.

students would pay to have their badly hand-written, paper saving, single
spaced, badly spelled drivel converted into typed paper, by desperate
masochists.

I think you will find that you are wrong. The majority that I know of
from that era "the time of Commodore" - assuming you mean the era of the
PET which was f'ing useless for typing a thesis on - were writing their
thesis using tools that are still lurking around in the guts of UNIX
systems. The ones who paid a typist to do it were incredibly wealthy and
usually some sort of art student.

On Sep 29, 4:15*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
Before IBM got going around the time of the Commodore,

I think you will find that IBM were going long before then.

students would pay to have their badly hand-written, paper saving, single
spaced, badly spelled drivel converted into typed paper, by desperate
masochists.

I think you will find that you are wrong. The majority that I know of
from that era "the time of Commodore" - assuming you mean the era of the
PET which was f'ing useless for typing a thesis on -

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine. Obviously the software
in use had more bearing on useability. I still have the 8" floppy with
my thesis on it.

MBQ

Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Obviously the software in use had more bearing on useability. I still have
the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:42:00 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Obviously the software in use had more bearing on useability. I still
have the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

I have the folder containing the paper. Typed on a typewriter (and yes, I
paid someone, and no, it didn't cost an arm and a leg).




--
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On 29 Sep 2012 19:58:57 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:42:00 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Obviously the software in use had more bearing on useability. I still
have the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

I have the folder containing the paper. Typed on a typewriter (and yes, I
paid someone, and no, it didn't cost an arm and a leg).

My wife typed mine, we bought an Imperial 66 for the task. sadly the
stencils got lost afterwards.

--
Phil Addison

On 29/09/2012 19:45, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 29, 4:15 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
Before IBM got going around the time of the Commodore,

I think you will find that IBM were going long before then.

students would pay to have their badly hand-written, paper saving, single
spaced, badly spelled drivel converted into typed paper, by desperate
masochists.

I think you will find that you are wrong. The majority that I know of
from that era "the time of Commodore" - assuming you mean the era of the
PET which was f'ing useless for typing a thesis on -

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine. Obviously the software
in use had more bearing on useability. I still have the 8" floppy with
my thesis on it.

Pretty sure there was a version of Superscript for it, which was a very
good word processor for its day. There was also a PET version of Visicalc.

(there was still a room full of modern style PETs when I was studying in
the late 80s - they used them for generating paper tapes for the CNC
machines among other jobs).



--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:17:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...

But you could play tunes on the diskette drives, since they ran at (IIRC)
five different speeds.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 30/09/2012 00:25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:17:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...

But you could play tunes on the diskette drives, since they ran at (IIRC)
five different speeds.

Five different recording speeds - but only one rotational speed.

On the commodore ones, they favoured GCR encoding for the disks instead
of the more common FM or MFM (another Chuck special!). This meant that
they could record at different densities across the disk without needing
to change the rotation speed. That allowed for more sectors per track on
the outer "longer" tracks than the inner ones. Hence how chucks 8250
double density twin drive for the PET series managed 1MB per disk long
before IBM achieved it - and their version needed new HD media.

The playing tunes on a drive trick was something most of the commodore
drives could do - typically by stepping the heads at variable
frequencies. Since the drives were "intelligent" (had their own CPU,
ROM, RAM, OS etc, they have very tight low level control without needing
any input from the main computer. Hence you could instruct the drive to
load a program from disk into its own memory and execute it).

having said that, some folks have done similar with modern drives and
dedicated controllers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJOz_y9rZE



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Weatherlawyer wrote :
Before IBM got going around the time of the Commodore, students would
pay to have their badly hand-written, paper saving, single spaced,
badly spelled drivel converted into typed paper, by desperate
masochists.

I wrote the history of my previous church on a Commodore PET and to
produce the camera copy hired a Qume daisywheel printer for a week -
this was 1982: printer would cost around £3000 to buy, about four
month's salary.

More from this era www.superbeam.co.uk/museum

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 01:25:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 30/09/2012 00:25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:17:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers
around including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...

But you could play tunes on the diskette drives, since they ran at
(IIRC)
five different speeds.

Five different recording speeds - but only one rotational speed.

My recollection is that the Sirius used different rotational speeds.
Wikipedia, at least, seems to agree!

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

John Rumm wrote:
On 30/09/2012 00:25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:17:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...

But you could play tunes on the diskette drives, since they ran at (IIRC)
five different speeds.

Five different recording speeds - but only one rotational speed.

On the commodore ones, they favoured GCR encoding for the disks instead
of the more common FM or MFM (another Chuck special!). This meant that
they could record at different densities across the disk without needing
to change the rotation speed. That allowed for more sectors per track on
the outer "longer" tracks than the inner ones. Hence how chucks 8250
double density twin drive for the PET series managed 1MB per disk long
before IBM achieved it - and their version needed new HD media.

The playing tunes on a drive trick was something most of the commodore
drives could do - typically by stepping the heads at variable
frequencies. Since the drives were "intelligent" (had their own CPU,
ROM, RAM, OS etc, they have very tight low level control without needing
any input from the main computer. Hence you could instruct the drive to
load a program from disk into its own memory and execute it).

having said that, some folks have done similar with modern drives and
dedicated controllers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJOz_y9rZE



And F1s
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...ail&FORM=VIRE1

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:11:32 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2012-09-29, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:42:00 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers
around including the ACT Sirius.

Obviously the software in use had more bearing on useability. I still
have the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

I have the folder containing the paper. Typed on a typewriter (and yes,
I paid someone, and no, it didn't cost an arm and a leg).

This one. And it didn't cost me anything; my Mum typed it.

My mum never learned to type (she was a cashier). My typist was from the
Electronics general office, and actually noticed typos of technical terms!



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 30/09/2012 08:00, Bob Eager wrote:
My recollection is that the Sirius used different rotational speeds.
Wikipedia, at least, seems to agree!

My recollection too.

Incidentally following on from John I know nothing significant about
Commodore machines. But I don't see why GCR is necessary to allow
varying bit rates.

Andy

On 30/09/2012 08:00, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 01:25:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 30/09/2012 00:25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:17:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers
around including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...

But you could play tunes on the diskette drives, since they ran at
(IIRC)
five different speeds.

Five different recording speeds - but only one rotational speed.

My recollection is that the Sirius used different rotational speeds.
Wikipedia, at least, seems to agree!

Sorry, I was not being clear, my comments were about the commodore ones
rather than the Sirrus (don't think I have ever seen one of those in the
flesh). I was making the rash assumption (given the designer and the
history with the commodore drives), that he used the same trick again.
Although thinking about it, it does make some sense they switched to MFM
since it was the standard used with MS-DOS...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/09/2012 19:37, Andy Champ wrote:
On 30/09/2012 08:00, Bob Eager wrote:
My recollection is that the Sirius used different rotational speeds.
Wikipedia, at least, seems to agree!

My recollection too.

Incidentally following on from John I know nothing significant about
Commodore machines. But I don't see why GCR is necessary to allow
varying bit rates.

Mainly I believe that they were not constrained by the limitations of
the standard MFM drive controllers used in most systems.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/09/2012 05:26, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Weatherlawyer wrote :
Before IBM got going around the time of the Commodore, students would
pay to have their badly hand-written, paper saving, single spaced,
badly spelled drivel converted into typed paper, by desperate
masochists.

I wrote the history of my previous church on a Commodore PET and to
produce the camera copy hired a Qume daisywheel printer for a week -
this was 1982: printer would cost around £3000 to buy, about four
month's salary.

More from this era www.superbeam.co.uk/museum

Let us know when you finish that history, I was just enjoying that and
it ran out ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 30/09/2012 00:25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:17:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...

But you could play tunes on the diskette drives, since they ran at (IIRC)
five different speeds.

Five different recording speeds - but only one rotational speed.

No that can't be right the Sirius 1 had more rotational speeds, nine I
think. It came close to a constant bits per inch recording format which is
whit it could cram 600k per side on a floppy that IBM could only get to
hold 360k




--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On 30/09/2012 23:07, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 30/09/2012 00:25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:17:48 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/09/2012 20:42, Steve Firth wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Another Chuck Peddle design, but it was a few years later IIRC - early
1982...

But you could play tunes on the diskette drives, since they ran at (IIRC)
five different speeds.

Five different recording speeds - but only one rotational speed.

No that can't be right the Sirius 1 had more rotational speeds, nine I
think. It came close to a constant bits per inch recording format which is
whit it could cram 600k per side on a floppy that IBM could only get to
hold 360k

Yup, see my comment to Bob


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 29, 8:45*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

Beg to differ. The 80 column PET was just fine.

FSVO "fine". By the time it appeared there were better computers around
including the ACT Sirius.

Obviously the software in use had more bearing on useability. I still have
the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

yorkshireI 'ad to do mine on t'ferrite core wi' nowt t'keyboard,
just a row of t'toggle switches/yorkshire

In reality I was one of those who had to seek out a professional
typist and hand over my project, carefully written in my best
handwriting, leaving space for drawings, graphs and mathematical/
scientific symbols to be added in later.

When I went back to uni 20-odd years later I was thinking these young
kids don't know they're born with Word, Excel and Microsoft Equation
editor.

--
Halmyre


--
Halmyre

Halmyre wrote:

On Sep 29, 8:45 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:

I still have the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

yorkshireI 'ad to do mine on t'ferrite core wi' nowt t'keyboard,
just a row of t'toggle switches/yorkshire

http://xkcd.com/378

Andy Burns wrote:
Halmyre wrote:

On Sep 29, 8:45 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:

I still have the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

yorkshireI 'ad to do mine on t'ferrite core wi' nowt t'keyboard,
just a row of t'toggle switches/yorkshire

http://xkcd.com/378

emacs ?

Didn't exist, I used ed to write my thesis, and ROFF.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 22:29:04 +0100 John Rumm wrote :
More from this era www.superbeam.co.uk/museum

Let us know when you finish that history, I was just enjoying that and
it ran out ;-)

Yes, I know. Waiting for a 'quiet day' (a legal fiction, your honour)

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On Oct 1, 12:23*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,





*Huge wrote:
On 2012-10-01, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
*Huge wrote:

On 2012-10-01, Steve Firth wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Halmyre wrote:

On Sep 29, 8:45 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:

I still have the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

yorkshireI 'ad to do mine on t'ferrite core wi' nowt t'keyboard,
just a row of t'toggle switches/yorkshire

http://xkcd.com/378

emacs ?

Didn't exist, I used ed to write my thesis, and ROFF.

I expect teco was available, given that emacs started as a set of teco
macros.

So *that* *is why it's so ****e!

Ooh, a religious war!

(Actually, I've never used emacs, so have no opinion on it. I regard learning
a new text editor with the same joy as open heart surgery, so only do it
when I must, and of the half-dozen I know, I hate them all for one reason
or another. (Current top dislike; the way gedit won't open files with
what it regards as unknown characters in them)).

I've started emacs twice, in each case it took me 20 mins to figure out
how to quit it. ****e.

In 1990 we got some unix boxes and there was then some ongoing
discussion about which would be the official editor for people to be
trained on. Of course, the notion that people should need training on a
****ing text editor was already a bad sign. So the discussion was about
choosing between emacs, vi, jove, etc. Meanwhile I had work to do, so I
started using Notepad on the Sun and got on with it. It took me 5 mins
to learn it.

Six months went by, during which time the Sun morphed into a DEC Ultrix
box. I moved to using dxnotepad (DEC's version of Notepad) and carried
on coding. The discussions about editors were ongoing.

One day I suddenly realised that, in fact, I'd been using the right text
editor all along. What I'd thought of as a temporary choice until the
"official" choice was made was all nonsense. No tool like a text editor
should take more than 5 minutes to learn. If it does, then it's a PoS.
So I use TextWrangler for general editing on my Mac, and vi if I find
myself at a command line needing to edit something (quite rare, in fact,
but I still have my vi summary card from the Ultrix days). And **** to
everything else.


We used to use vi on dumb terminals to write technical documents like
test schedules and test certificates, with up to three levels of
numbering, indentations, tabbed columns, horizontal and vertical
separators - an absolute ****ing nightmare to work with. You could get
WordPerfect for Unix in those days, but would the bean-counters stump
up for it? Would they buggery...

--
Halmyre

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 09:03:46 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2012-10-01, Steve Firth wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Halmyre wrote:

On Sep 29, 8:45 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:

I still have the 8" floppy with my thesis on it.

I still have the paper tape with mine on it.

yorkshireI 'ad to do mine on t'ferrite core wi' nowt t'keyboard,
just a row of t'toggle switches/yorkshire

http://xkcd.com/378

emacs ?

Didn't exist, I used ed to write my thesis, and ROFF.

I expect teco was available, given that emacs started as a set of teco
macros.

I did actually use teco to write parts of mine...but only in upper case
on a teletype...so I still needed the typist!



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 01/10/2012 16:08, Bob Eager wrote:
I did actually use teco to write parts of mine...but only in upper case
on a teletype...so I still needed the typist!

Mine wasn't technically a thesis, as I only did Bachelor's. But Teco
feeding into Runoff printed on a daisywheel... I couldn't do bulk entry
on a teletype, the keyboard was too hard.

Things _have_ got better! (whaddya mean, coloured syntax highlighting?)

Andy