http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a combination
of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible and no
match for northern European standards.

There appears to be little in the way of facts and a lot of finger pointing.
It will be interesting to see it, in the fullness of time, a proper detailed
analysis of what went wrong is performed.

When one watches Grand Designs and sees totally passive houses being
successfully built, it's hard not to become cynical at modern home building;
the tools are there and the designs of high efficiency houses are proven but
presumably it is bad for the builders' bottom line so we're stuck with crap.

Paul DS.

On Sep 10, 1:09*pm, "Paul D Smith" wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

...









http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a combination
of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible and no
match for northern European standards.

There appears to be little in the way of facts and a lot of finger pointing.
It will be interesting to see it, in the fullness of time, a proper detailed
analysis of what went wrong is performed.

When one watches Grand Designs and sees totally passive houses being
successfully built, it's hard not to become cynical at modern home building;

Until the end of the programme when the final cost (financial and in
some cases emotional) is revealed.

MBQ

....snip...


When one watches Grand Designs and sees totally passive houses being
successfully built, it's hard not to become cynical at modern home
building;

Until the end of the programme when the final cost (financial and in
some cases emotional) is revealed.


Agreed but we're talking about very different things. These heat pumps
seems to have been installed poorly, in homes insufficiently insulated and
I'll bet someone made a tidy sum producing these "eco-homes".

But the residents have paid dearly for this and it's probably not their
fault at all. But that doesn't make it the heat pump manufacturer's fault
either necessarily (which Is how I read the original post as saying). These
sorts of pumps work fine in much colder climes than ours, but where the
homes they're fitted to are much better built.

Paul DS.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:16:17 +0100, Paul D Smith wrote:

Agreed but we're talking about very different things. These heat pumps
seems to have been installed poorly, in homes insufficiently insulated
and I'll bet someone made a tidy sum producing these "eco-homes".

Agreed, space heating isn't mentioned only hot water heated from
recovering the waste heat in exhaust air from the building. This implies
that the building occupied normally doesn't need any space heating, ie is
very well insulated.

Looks more like the housing assoc's have been sold a pup. The figures do
more or less work out. 550W 24/7 for a year is 4818 kWHr. 10p/unit near
enough their quoted £500/year running cost. Of course that doesn't
include *any* other electrical use which could easyily be another 5000
kWHr... bring the total bill to around £1000/year.

But the residents have paid dearly for this and it's probably not their
fault at all. But that doesn't make it the heat pump manufacturer's
fault either necessarily (which Is how I read the original post as
saying). These sorts of pumps work fine in much colder climes than
ours, but where the homes they're fitted to are much better built.

Aye, if a place doesn't need any extra space heating recovering the waste
heat in the exhaust air seems emminently sensible. 1kW 24/7 is enough to
keep a decent sized thermal store well hot. Yes a succession of baths
will cool it and bring in the backup (expensive) immersion heater. So
there also needs to be a change in habits, stagger bath nights through
the week for each family member. Rather than everyone having a bath on
Sunday night. Have a shower in preference to a bath.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:16:17 +0100, Paul D Smith wrote:
Agreed but we're talking about very different things. These heat pumps
seems to have been installed poorly, in homes insufficiently insulated
and I'll bet someone made a tidy sum producing these "eco-homes".
Agreed, space heating isn't mentioned only hot water heated from
recovering the waste heat in exhaust air from the building. This implies
that the building occupied normally doesn't need any space heating, ie is
very well insulated.

The unit does have radiator and underfloor heating (water) output,
according to the datasheet.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
"Paul D Smith" writes:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a combination
of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible and no
match for northern European standards.

There appears to be little in the way of facts and a lot of finger pointing.
It will be interesting to see it, in the fullness of time, a proper detailed
analysis of what went wrong is performed.

When one watches Grand Designs and sees totally passive houses being
successfully built, it's hard not to become cynical at modern home building;
the tools are there and the designs of high efficiency houses are proven but
presumably it is bad for the builders' bottom line so we're stuck with crap.

This one sounded to me like a way of fiddling some energy efficiency
figure they had to meet, so they met the figure without generating
energy effiency, and the system never stood any chance of being able
to perform.

I've just glanced at the data sheet. It seems to have a 550W compressor
(much smaller than the air sourced heat pump in my living room), which
it claims can pump 1.5kW.

1.5kW is horribly low for the heating capability of a central heating
system (which includes hot water generation). But then I got to think
I'm not even sure it's that good - it's not an air sourced heat pump
pumping 1.5kw in from outside, it's just pumping 1.5kW from the
house's exhaust air. I'm still thinking about it, but I think it's
heat generating capacity is actually only its 550W power consumption,
and not it's heat pumping capacity as it's not pumping any heat in from
outside. Add to this just the heat recovered from the typical 2 air
changes per hour. Either way, it's not surprising it doesn't work.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

As with many technologies, the idea is great and no doubt could be made to
work given careful choice of control logic and a really efficient heating
system as well.
Unfortunately the first into these new ideas often get burned and the
technology gets a bad name probably wrongly.
Brian

--
From the Bed of Brian Gaff.
The email is valid as
Blind user.
"Paul D Smith" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off
Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a combination
of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible and no
match for northern European standards.

There appears to be little in the way of facts and a lot of finger
pointing. It will be interesting to see it, in the fullness of time, a
proper detailed analysis of what went wrong is performed.

When one watches Grand Designs and sees totally passive houses being
successfully built, it's hard not to become cynical at modern home
building; the tools are there and the designs of high efficiency houses
are proven but presumably it is bad for the builders' bottom line so we're
stuck with crap.

Paul DS.

"Paul D Smith" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off
Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a combination
of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible and no
match for northern European standards.

I though that the current standards brought us pretty much up towards that.

I live in a property built in 2000 to the previous standards and my heating
uses about 2500 kWh per annum. For that usage it doesn't make sense to
spend 3K (or more) on heating equipment, when a couple of 30 quid panel
heaters cuts it (which is what I have - actually there are 6 but I never
need more than 2 turned on).

If it had the 2006 standards I would expect to only have the heater(s)
turned on for about 10 days a year!

Or perhaps, because the way that 2006 changed the measuring process a "pass"
is allowed for there to be less insulation if the actual heating system is
more "efficient". If so that seems to be a very serious error, not the
least because further down the line when the system breaks down, so owners
are not going to be able to afford the replacement costs and just go out to
buy electric heaters.

(and of course, there the perverse incentive for manufactures of expensive
kit to push their "solution" instead of the insulation)

tim

In article ,
tim..... wrote:
live in a property built in 2000 to the previous standards and my
heating uses about 2500 kWh per annum. For that usage it doesn't make
sense to spend 3K (or more) on heating equipment, when a couple of 30
quid panel heaters cuts it (which is what I have - actually there are 6
but I never need more than 2 turned on).

One estate were told their bills would be about 500 quid a year - less
than yours? But ended up at three times that. Which isn't a million miles
from mine in a large Victorian house with solid walls - and I'm retired,
so have the heating on as much as most. Of course where you are in the
country can make a difference, but something doesn't add up.

--
*"I am " is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) used his keyboard to write :
In article ,
tim..... wrote:
live in a property built in 2000 to the previous standards and my
heating uses about 2500 kWh per annum. For that usage it doesn't make
sense to spend 3K (or more) on heating equipment, when a couple of 30
quid panel heaters cuts it (which is what I have - actually there are 6
but I never need more than 2 turned on).

One estate were told their bills would be about 500 quid a year - less
than yours? But ended up at three times that. Which isn't a million miles
from mine in a large Victorian house with solid walls - and I'm retired,
so have the heating on as much as most. Of course where you are in the
country can make a difference, but something doesn't add up.

They were having to use electric, rather than the much cheaper gas
heating, to top up the inefficiencies of the system.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
. uk...
Dave Plowman (News) used his keyboard to write :
In article ,
tim..... wrote:
live in a property built in 2000 to the previous standards and my
heating uses about 2500 kWh per annum. For that usage it doesn't make
sense to spend 3K (or more) on heating equipment, when a couple of 30
quid panel heaters cuts it (which is what I have - actually there are 6
but I never need more than 2 turned on).

One estate were told their bills would be about 500 quid a year - less
than yours? But ended up at three times that. Which isn't a million miles
from mine in a large Victorian house with solid walls - and I'm retired,
so have the heating on as much as most. Of course where you are in the
country can make a difference, but something doesn't add up.

They were having to use electric, rather than the much cheaper gas
heating, to top up the inefficiencies of the system.

Whilst logically the correct explanation I don't think that gas is the base
fuel used here

tim

"Paul D Smith" wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

-- Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a combination of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible and no
match for northern European standards.

One problem identified by " Saving the Earth" on radio 4 was that current
planning regulations take no account of real world insulation performance.
Thermal loss calculations have no element of measurement of the as-built
performance.

StE found that thermal camera observation of new build Eco-homes revealed
that various trades compromised thermal performance by moving insulation or
by poor precision builds.

In several cases insulation had been forgotten during the build.

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:

[Snip]

One problem identified by " Saving the Earth" on radio 4 was that current
planning regulations take no account of real world insulation performance.
Thermal loss calculations have no element of measurement of the as-built
performance.

StE found that thermal camera observation of new build Eco-homes revealed
that various trades compromised thermal performance by moving insulation
or by poor precision builds.

In several cases insulation had been forgotten during the build.

half a dozen "eco homes" were built in our village about 5 years ago.
Thick walls, triple glazing, the lot. When it snowed heavily two winters
ago, the solar heating panels worked backwards, all the snow on their roofs
melted as heat exited the building.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"charles" wrote in message
...

half a dozen "eco homes" were built in our village about 5 years ago.
Thick walls, triple glazing, the lot. When it snowed heavily two winters
ago, the solar heating panels worked backwards, all the snow on their
roofs
melted as heat exited the building.

Are you sure it melted and didn't fall off due to slippery surfaces?

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...

half a dozen "eco homes" were built in our village about 5 years ago.
Thick walls, triple glazing, the lot. When it snowed heavily two
winters ago, the solar heating panels worked backwards, all the snow on
their roofs melted as heat exited the building.

Are you sure it melted and didn't fall off due to slippery surfaces?

perfectly certain

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 06:23:21 +0100, charles wrote:

half a dozen "eco homes" were built in our village about 5 years ago.
Thick walls, triple glazing, the lot. When it snowed heavily two
winters ago, the solar heating panels worked backwards, all the snow on
their roofs melted as heat exited the building.

Not quite sure what you mean. Solar thermal panels? The *whole* roof?

Whole roof sounds like they missed out the roof insulation. Just the
solar thermal panels; incorrect setup or installation. Most solar thermal
controllers have a frost protection setting for use in places where
frosts are rare so the cost of antifreeze in the circulating water isn't
justified. In the UK that doesn't apply and you put in antifreeze and
turn off the frost protection...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:

[Snip]

One problem identified by " Saving the Earth" on radio 4 was that current
planning regulations take no account of real world insulation
performance.
Thermal loss calculations have no element of measurement of the as-built
performance.

StE found that thermal camera observation of new build Eco-homes revealed
that various trades compromised thermal performance by moving insulation
or by poor precision builds.

In several cases insulation had been forgotten during the build.

half a dozen "eco homes" were built in our village about 5 years ago.
Thick walls, triple glazing, the lot. When it snowed heavily two winters
ago, the solar heating panels worked backwards, all the snow on their
roofs
melted as heat exited the building.

That is poor design or installation. That is easy enough to rectify.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
"Paul D Smith" wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off
Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

-- Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a combination
of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible and no
match for northern European standards.

One problem identified by " Saving the Earth" on radio 4 was that current
planning regulations take no account of real world insulation performance.
Thermal loss calculations have no element of measurement of the as-built
performance.

StE found that thermal camera observation of new build Eco-homes revealed
that various trades compromised thermal performance by moving insulation
or
by poor precision builds.

In several cases insulation had been forgotten during the build.

Poor implementation during the build is a problem with any regulation, it's
a deficiency in the checking process that causes this

tim

In article ,
"tim....." writes:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
One problem identified by " Saving the Earth" on radio 4 was that current
planning regulations take no account of real world insulation performance.
Thermal loss calculations have no element of measurement of the as-built
performance.

StE found that thermal camera observation of new build Eco-homes revealed
that various trades compromised thermal performance by moving insulation
or
by poor precision builds.

In several cases insulation had been forgotten during the build.

Poor implementation during the build is a problem with any regulation, it's
a deficiency in the checking process that causes this

It's the fault of unskilled and uncaring workers, and building
companies which don't care. It could be picked up by later
checking, but that's not the cause, just another failure down
the line.

As I've mentioned before, in the building trade I'm amazed how
clueless one trade can be about another trade they work alongside
all their lives.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Tim Streater wrote:
In article

rg,
Steve Firth wrote:

"Paul D Smith" wrote:

Listening to "You and Yours" this lunchtime it sounded like a
combination of...

- marketing "over enthusiasm"
- possible cost cutting causing underspecification
- building homes which are still not as well insulated as possible
and no match for northern European standards.

One problem identified by " Saving the Earth" on radio 4 was that
current planning regulations take no account of real world
insulation performance. Thermal loss calculations have no element of
measurement of the as-built performance.

StE found that thermal camera observation of new build Eco-homes
revealed that various trades compromised thermal performance by
moving insulation or by poor precision builds.

In several cases insulation had been forgotten during the build.

Exactly what we discovered here had happened during the extension
build he our plumber lifted the (incorrectly laid) chipboard floor
to put some new pipes in. This was within a foot of the north-facing
wall. I found I could kneel down and put my arm under the floor to
touch the outer skin on which the tile-hung tiles were hung. Some two
feet of insulation missing under the floor.

If houses are built of SIP panels they would just need a small heating
system and probably just an electric one as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_insulated_panel

Insulation is a part of the structure of a house using SIP panels.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Are these different from the fresh air heat exchangers featured in the
passive/eco houses on Grand Designs et al?

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19511637

Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off
Britain) about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

Seemingly these are being fitted to Affordable Housing because it
means they can meet more stringent energy efficiency requirements,
but the systems are ineffective, and generating massive heating
bills as they fall back to electric heating.

Some housing associatios are now having to pay for the excessive
heating costs of their tenents, and wholescale ripping the systems
out.

I sort of heard it in the car, and it seemed to me the idea of waste heat
from a house being able to keep it at the required temperature and supply
the hot water would only work if it was very well insulated. In which case
any form of heating would also have small running costs. If it can't
supply all the needed heat, topping that up with electrical heat is stupid
given how much more that costs than gas in the UK. That it is a decent
system in other countries is neither here nor there - that depends on
their energy costs for different fuels.

I felt quite sorry for the equipment supplier spokesman. Since the major
things that make for low energy bills - like good insulation - were
beyond his control. As presumably was the specification and installation
of the systems. That all the estates fitted with it seemed to be social
housing is no surprise. They seem to be controlled by amateurs.

--
*I'm planning to be spontaneous tomorrow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andrew Gabriel brought next idea :
Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

I only watched it whilst busy with something else, so I didn't digest
the full details, but...

It seemed to me that it did work in Sweden, where insulation and
environment air sealing is probably high on the specifications list. In
the UK, where these standards are much lower, there will be much less
heat to be recovered and the installation of the equipment seemed in
part to blame.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On 10/09/2012 15:26, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Andrew Gabriel brought next idea :
Covered on BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" (and presumably on Rip Off
Britain)
about Exhaust Air Heat Pumps (which I've never heard of before).

I only watched it whilst busy with something else, so I didn't digest
the full details, but...

It seemed to me that it did work in Sweden, where insulation and
environment air sealing is probably high on the specifications list. In
the UK, where these standards are much lower, there will be much less
heat to be recovered and the installation of the equipment seemed in
part to blame.


Not the first time a design has been inappropriately applied:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Hill,_Sheffield

Rob