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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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The thick ****
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#2
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The thick ****
On 30/04/2012 20:44, ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards That's really funny. Tim W |
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The thick ****
Tim W wrote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards That's really funny. Even funnier when they try it across a fast moving river. |
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The thick ****
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards He was a victim of the drought! Another victim of the drought in Hampshire died when he tried to ford a local stream that was under 5ft of water. It looks like he was taking a shortcut to a small council estate. There was no need to ford the stream, there's a perfectl good, safe route around it using two main roads and a bridge. Darwin can be mildly satisfied. |
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The thick ****
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:44:09 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Dennis drives a blue VW? -- |
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The thick ****
In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue
yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... -- Tony Sayer |
#7
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The thick ****
In message , tony sayer
writes In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... If he'd driven more slowly he would probably have been OK -- hugh |
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The thick ****
"Tim Streater" wrote in message ... In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Remember that a lot of modern cars have the inlet just behind the rad at about the same height as the top of the wheels. |
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The thick ****
dennis@home wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message ... In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Remember that a lot of modern cars have the inlet just behind the rad at about the same height as the top of the wheels. yep. -- To people who know nothing, anything is possible. To people who know too much, it is a sad fact that they know how little is really possible - and how hard it is to achieve it. |
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The thick ****
In article ,
dennis@home wrote: "Tim Streater" wrote in message ... In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Remember that a lot of modern cars have the inlet just behind the rad at about the same height as the top of the wheels. In my Seat Toledo, it turned out to be just below the bumper! Luckily the engine was cold. In my Anglia (in 1971) I drove through a ford that was 21" deep - lots of WD40 on the plug leads first. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
#11
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The thick ****
charles wrote:
In article , dennis@home wrote: "Tim Streater" wrote in message ... In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Remember that a lot of modern cars have the inlet just behind the rad at about the same height as the top of the wheels. In my Seat Toledo, it turned out to be just below the bumper! Luckily the engine was cold. You were lucky - cold or not, you can still hyraulic the engine (ie snap stuff off). In my Anglia (in 1971) I drove through a ford that was 21" deep - lots of WD40 on the plug leads first. -- Tim Watts |
#12
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The thick ****
On Tue, 01 May 2012 07:16:01 +0100, charles
wrote: Remember that a lot of modern cars have the inlet just behind the rad at about the same height as the top of the wheels. In my Seat Toledo, it turned out to be just below the bumper! Luckily the engine was cold. In my Anglia (in 1971) I drove through a ford that was 21" deep - lots of WD40 on the plug leads first. Stalled an A35 Van going through a flood when they were building the M27 and a pump had stopped in a road dip,(It was ere http://g.co/maps/n28mn) Truth was with poor lights ,no heater or screenwashers I hadn't noticed it was a deep lake rather than the puddle it normally was on my early am journey. It was mechanical loading rather than wetness which stalled the engine, an observer who had stalled on the far side after leaving the puddle laughed his head off and said he was waiting for the AA. The old car had a weak battery so I went straight to the starting handle searching for the hole as the water was almost up to the headlights. Previously all ignition parts had been liberaly coated with PVC spray. Started first crank and I left the laughter man with his mouth open in amazement.Lot to said for a very simple machine. Would not attempt to go through deep water in most modern cars unless they had a lot of ground clearance. About 23 years ago when I first had a company Diesel I thought it was invincible ,engine wise it was as I ploughed through some deep flood water. The boss didn't like the bill for replacing the phone unit situated under the seat damaged as water poured in. With all the gizmos under seats like seat belt tensioners and other electronics getting water into the cabin can be now be expensive rather than dry the carpets and mats and give the cabin floor a good rinse. G.Harman |
#13
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The thick ****
"Tim Streater" wrote in message ... In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Fit water wings to the car, silly. |
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The thick ****
On 30/04/2012 23:04, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Drive slowly. It stops the bow wave getting too large and gives you a chance to stop if it looks as though the water is getting too deep. Also, know where your water intake is, or the fording depth of the vehicle, if published. I've seen engines wrecked by sucking in water and try to compress it. I've also watched an early Mini float downstream while crossing a ford - fortunately into a barrier alongside the ford. Colin Bignell |
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The thick ****
On 30/04/2012 23:04, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Drive slowly. It stops the bow wave getting too large and gives you a chance to stop if it looks as though the water is getting too deep. Also, know where your water intake is, or the fording depth of the vehicle, if published. I've seen engines wrecked by sucking in water and try to compress it. I've also watched an early Mini float downstream while crossing a ford - fortunately into a barrier alongside the ford. The rules for fording a- Lowest gear. High revs (even if this requires slipping the clutch) Forward pace fast enough to hold an un-broken bow wave. On older vehicles removing the fan belt helps. And yes, a very sound knowledge of where your air intake and any vital electronics are located. Mike |
#16
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The thick ****
On Tue, 1 May 2012 09:06:57 +0100, "Muddymike"
wrote: The rules for fording a- No 1 - Find out how deep the water is _before_ driving into it. |
#17
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The thick ****
Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 1 May 2012 09:06:57 +0100, "Muddymike" wrote: The rules for fording a- No 1 - Find out how deep the water is _before_ driving into it. These chaps initially didn't have quite enough water, but once they had sorted that... ;-) http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59b_1335633237&p=1 Chris -- Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh. |
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The thick ****
Peter Parry spake thus:
On Tue, 1 May 2012 09:06:57 +0100, "Muddymike" wrote: The rules for fording a- No 1 - Find out how deep the water is _before_ driving into it. "I don't understand it, the water only came half way up those ducks." |
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The thick ****
On May 1, 9:06*am, "Muddymike" wrote:
On 30/04/2012 23:04, Tim Streater wrote: In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Drive slowly. It stops the bow wave getting too large and gives you a chance to stop if it looks as though the water is getting too deep. Also, know where your water intake is, or the fording depth of the vehicle, if published. I've seen engines wrecked by sucking in water and try to compress it. I've also watched an early Mini float downstream while crossing a ford - fortunately into a barrier alongside the ford. The rules for fording a- Lowest gear. High revs (even if this requires slipping the clutch) Forward pace fast enough to hold an un-broken bow wave. On older vehicles removing the fan belt helps. And yes, a very sound knowledge of where your air intake and any vital electronics are located. I don;t know much about cars but with most modern cars isn;t teh eelctrics pretty vital to everything. Mike |
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The thick ****
On Tue, 1 May 2012 09:06:57 +0100, Muddymike wrote:
The rules for fording a- Lowest gear. High revs (even if this requires slipping the clutch) Forward pace fast enough to hold an un-broken bow wave. Agreed, found that out the hard way. A flood was "a bit" deeper than I expected, expected 6" found about 18". B-) I kept the small bow wave just lapping up onto the bonnet of a Mondeo. Water doesn't move out of the way like air and it took a lot of revs and clutch slipping in 1st to keep the thing from stopping and/or stalling. Car survived, though the starter motor was never quite the same afterwards. -- Cheers Dave. |
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The thick ****
On May 1, 8:31*am, Nightjar wrote:
On 30/04/2012 23:04, Tim Streater wrote: In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Drive slowly. It stops the bow wave getting too large and gives you a chance to stop if it looks as though the water is getting too deep. Wonder about that after watching a Landrover go through a swollen ford at the weekend, lannie with snorkel.. Intially thought he was being a bit keen with the bow wave going over the bonnet until midstream when need for forward impetus showed up, watching it go sideways against the flow, full Nigel Mansell style opposite lock to get across without getting washed down to the weir... Cheers Adam Also, know where your water intake is, or the fording depth of the vehicle, if published. I've seen engines wrecked by sucking in water and try to compress it. I've also watched an early Mini float downstream while crossing a ford - fortunately into a barrier alongside the ford. Colin Bignell |
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The thick ****
On 01/05/2012 12:44, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On May 1, 8:31 am, wrote: On 30/04/2012 23:04, Tim Streater wrote: .... In , tony wrote: In , ARWadsworthadamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Drive slowly. It stops the bow wave getting too large and gives you a chance to stop if it looks as though the water is getting too deep. Wonder about that after watching a Landrover go through a swollen ford at the weekend, lannie with snorkel.. Intially thought he was being a bit keen with the bow wave going over the bonnet until midstream when need for forward impetus showed up, watching it go sideways against the flow, full Nigel Mansell style opposite lock to get across without getting washed down to the weir... Vehicles equipped for deep fording do need a different approach, but it is reasonable to assume that anyone driving on of those should have had a bit of practice first. The advice I liked with the Discovery was to remove the CD player (under the front passenger seat) before tackling deep water. Colin Bignell |
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The thick ****
On 01/05/2012 12:44, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On May 1, 8:31 am, wrote: On 30/04/2012 23:04, Tim Streater wrote: ... In , tony wrote: In , ARWadsworthadamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Drive slowly. It stops the bow wave getting too large and gives you a chance to stop if it looks as though the water is getting too deep. Wonder about that after watching a Landrover go through a swollen ford at the weekend, lannie with snorkel.. Intially thought he was being a bit keen with the bow wave going over the bonnet until midstream when need for forward impetus showed up, watching it go sideways against the flow, full Nigel Mansell style opposite lock to get across without getting washed down to the weir... Vehicles equipped for deep fording do need a different approach, but it is reasonable to assume that anyone driving on of those should have had a bit of practice first. The advice I liked with the Discovery was to remove the CD player (under the front passenger seat) before tackling deep water. Colin Bignell I have forded rivers in elderly Land Rovers with water over my boots. My passengers were ok they could lift their feet up, I however got wet feet as I had to keep mine on the pedals. No fancy preparation other than removing the fan belt! Before entering the water with a vehicle one of us would strip off and wade in to judge the depth, and pick the best route. Chilly at best when wading through snow melt in the Orange river. Mike |
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The thick ****
On Tue, 01 May 2012 15:12:13 +0100, Nightjar wrote:
The advice I liked with the Discovery was to remove the CD player (under the front passenger seat) before tackling deep water. The CD mechansium is under front drivers seat in a Disco II with the (extra(?) "Harmon Cardon") power amps under the front passenger seat. -- Cheers Dave. |
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The thick ****
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Trying not to dive it so deep all the electronics and the air intake go below water? -- Tim Watts |
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The thick ****
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus Tim Streater wrote: In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Trying not to dive it so deep all the electronics Well that in most all instances will be sealed. Least all the ones I've come across are, apart from the high voltage switchgear on ignition on older cars.. and the air intake go Much more important;!.. below water? I reckon the problem is that yer average *Joe these days knows sod all of what goes on under the bonnet. They can't do or don't want to do any maintenance themselves preferring to leave it all to the garage. Hence they never get to learn just how a car works and what all the bits of it do. I bet most all of them couldn't explain how the engine works let alone know where the engine air intake is even;!.. * Inc Josephine too .. and prolly worse in this aspect... -- Tony Sayer |
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The thick ****
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? I am sure that even at tickover water would not go up the exhaust. ISTR the highrevs mean there is less chance of a stall if a little water gets on the HT leads and restarting from a stall could be a problem as water would now be in the exhaust. -- Adam |
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The thick ****
In message , Tim
Streater writes In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Perhaps he thinks he's got that Lotus that James Bond had that worked underwater. Some people just haven't a clue on how to drive in a flood;(... First gear and rev it to stop water going up the exhaust. Anything else? Watch the bow wave and keep in the trough behind it. Water will not come up the exhaust as long as the engine is running. If the engine stops DO check the exhaust is not under water before you try to restart - other wise you will hydraulic the engine. Snorkels on land Rovers are not just cosmetic. -- hugh |
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The thick ****
On Tue, 1 May 2012 16:21:21 +0100, hugh ] wrote:
If the engine stops DO check the exhaust is not under water before you try to restart - other wise you will hydraulic the engine. air comes in 'suck squeeze bang blow' combustion products are then forced out of the exhaust Engines don't suck air through the exhaust. Even if the exhaust is flooded the engine will not hydraulic, it might not start but it will certainly not hydraulic. -- |
#30
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The thick ****
In message , The Other Mike
writes On Tue, 1 May 2012 16:21:21 +0100, hugh ] wrote: If the engine stops DO check the exhaust is not under water before you try to restart - other wise you will hydraulic the engine. air comes in 'suck squeeze bang blow' combustion products are then forced out of the exhaust That's when the engine is running. Engines don't suck air through the exhaust. Even if the exhaust is flooded the engine will not hydraulic, it might not start but it will certainly not hydraulic. Standard part of MOD ( and other) off-road training. Happened to my mate's Land Rover. Suggest you go and try it. -- hugh |
#31
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The thick ****
On Tue, 1 May 2012 21:59:29 +0100, hugh ] wrote:
In message , The Other Mike writes On Tue, 1 May 2012 16:21:21 +0100, hugh ] wrote: If the engine stops DO check the exhaust is not under water before you try to restart - other wise you will hydraulic the engine. air comes in 'suck squeeze bang blow' combustion products are then forced out of the exhaust That's when the engine is running. and when it's not running it's a pipe, running to lump of metal, the pipe usually exiting the engine towards the top. It isn't actively or passively sucking the flood water up and squirting it out the air filter, nor is the water filling the cylinder bores unless the head of water is higher than the exhaust ports on the head. All breathers will vent back into the inlet manifold so no chance of water in the sump, the dipstick hole is very high on the engine too. Near zero static pressure from the surrounding water, nice seals on every opening. Zero ingress of water. Engines don't suck air through the exhaust. Even if the exhaust is flooded the engine will not hydraulic, it might not start but it will certainly not hydraulic. Standard part of MOD ( and other) off-road training. Happened to my mate's Land Rover. Suggest you go and try it. I've tried it, not intentionally, back in 2000. The car was an MOT failure that was bought for spares, and had been parked up for a few months, a one in 500 year flood event produced local water levels of around 18 inches for a few days, then the floods receded. A week or two later I put the key in ignition, cranked and started it. The water had been most of the way up the cylinder block. The car was f*cked, but there was bugger all water in the engine, not even in the oil. That engine and box has since done around 150000 miles. -- |
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The thick ****
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:44:09 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Almost made it, if he hadn't been an arse and probably driving something with a low air intake too. thinks They're called the Somerset Levels for a reason, aren't they? Like, might be prone to the odd flood? |
#34
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The thick ****
On Tue, 01 May 2012 09:01:52 +0100, Moonraker wrote:
On 30/04/2012 23:59, wrote: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:44:09 +0100, "ARWadsworth" wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Almost made it, if he hadn't been an arse and probably driving something with a low air intake too. thinks They're called the Somerset Levels for a reason, aren't they? Like, might be prone to the odd flood? As a child and young man I lived on the southern slope of the Mendip Hills overlooking the Somerset levels. Every year we could see the flood water, but it did no harm. Then they started serious drainage and followed that by building property on areas that used to be prone to flooding. This is the result. Sadly property is being built all over flood plains, bound to give problems sooner or later, however well drained. Used to work in Leamington Spa, and to the left of the M40 J15 slip it was under water for January and February, 2006 and 2007 .... |
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The thick ****
On Apr 30, 11:59*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:44:09 +0100, "ARWadsworth" wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards Almost made it, if he hadn't been an arse and probably driving something with a low air intake too. thinks They're called the Somerset Levels for a reason, aren't they? Like, might be prone to the odd flood? Probbly whwy they buitt on them cheap ....... They seem to be doing that quite a bit recently..... |
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The thick ****
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards What a plonker... Very funny though. The kids in the rubebr dinghy earlier seemed to be enjoying it... -- Tim Watts |
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The thick ****
Tim Watts wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards What a plonker... Very funny though. This one is funnier. -- Adam |
#38
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The thick ****
ARWadsworth wrote:
Tim Watts wrote: ARWadsworth wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards What a plonker... Very funny though. This one is funnier. I'll add the link:-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uFm002CuA0 -- Adam |
#39
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The thick ****
In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue
yonder.co.uk scribeth thus ARWadsworth wrote: Tim Watts wrote: ARWadsworth wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards What a plonker... Very funny though. This one is funnier. I'll add the link:-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uFm002CuA0 Wonder if they teach them flood driving at Hendon?. Thats of course assuming that they do teach all bobbies to drive there?.. Can't say I found it all that amusing as who's going the have to pay for repairs to that and by the look of that water got in the engine.. You are the taxpayer;(.. -- Tony Sayer |
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The thick ****
tony sayer wrote:
In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@blue yonder.co.uk scribeth thus ARWadsworth wrote: Tim Watts wrote: ARWadsworth wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17901615 watch from 56 seconds onwards What a plonker... Very funny though. This one is funnier. I'll add the link:-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uFm002CuA0 Wonder if they teach them flood driving at Hendon?. Thats of course assuming that they do teach all bobbies to drive there?.. Can't say I found it all that amusing as who's going the have to pay for repairs to that and by the look of that water got in the engine.. You are the taxpayer;(.. I must admit to causing damage to a police vehicle. When I was at sixth form college I had a weekend job at a petrol station. The local police station had an account with us. Now when I saw the police officer filling the Landrover up with petrol and not diesel I did not bother to tell him (I had a run in with the ****** the week before and he thought it clever to knock me and my parents out of bed at 3am) -- Adam |
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