"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

I reason that if there were not fairly hefty negative feedback systems to
regulate the atmosphere, we would have seen many violent and rapid
fluctuations of temperature associated with carbon dioxide in the past -
but the geological record does not show this.

There have been several significant extinction events in the past that could
have been rapid temperature fluctuations.
There is even evidence that most of the Earth was covered in ice some of the
time.

harry wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:41 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On Apr 16, 10:39 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 07:22:37 +0100, Dave N wrote:
I don't expect that I am the only to be disturbed by this rant of
yours.
Good, wake up and smell the coffee, yes it was a bit of a rant but
quite possibly not far from the truth. Modern society is balanced on
a razor sharp knife edge. Just look what happened the other week when
there was a merest hint of, note *hint* not that there "will be", a
fuel supply problem.
I guess most people don't realise that the supermarket shelves will
have significant empty spaces within 24 hours if the deliveries don't
arrive for what ever reason. Be that lack of fuel or lack of goods to
deliver. Once people start being restricted on what they can buy
either due to availability or restriction (1 loaf, 2 pints of milk,
indelible stamp to back of hand at checkout to stop people going
round again or simply not allowed into the store and have to queue to
get their allocated "ration"). It has the potential to get very
nasty, very quickly. Probably only last about month after that most
people will have starved to death or been killed by marauding gangs
taking what ever they can get by force.
There have been food riots, that is the populace rising up due to
lack of or cost of food, in many parts of the world recently. The
western media tend not to cover that sort of story for some reason...
Yes, I tend to agree with you. It would be worse in the USA with all the
guns too.
Have fun explaining why it wasn't with the great depression there


the great depression was an economic crisis, not a total breakdown in
civilisation.

Simple.
People had much lower expectations and many were used to having it
tough.

Also there was a lack of communication. It was hard to organise an
insurrection.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:39:47 AM UTC+1, harry wrote:

I don't often agree with TurNiP, but on this occasion he is entirely
correct.
If electricity failed for say a week, there would be rioting, murder
and mass panic in the cities.
Everywere, anywhere.

So long as it isn't raining...

The Natural Philosopher wrote
harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote
Dave Liquorice wrote
Dave N wrote

I don't expect that I am the only to be disturbed by this rant of
yours.

Good, wake up and smell the coffee, yes it was a bit of a rant but
quite possibly not far from the truth. Modern society is balanced on
a razor sharp knife edge. Just look what happened the other week when
there was a merest hint of, note *hint* not that there "will be", a
fuel supply problem.

I guess most people don't realise that the supermarket shelves will
have significant empty spaces within 24 hours if the deliveries don't
arrive for what ever reason. Be that lack of fuel or lack of goods to
deliver. Once people start being restricted on what they can buy
either due to availability or restriction (1 loaf, 2 pints of milk,
indelible stamp to back of hand at checkout to stop people going
round again or simply not allowed into the store and have to queue to
get their allocated "ration"). It has the potential to get very
nasty, very quickly. Probably only last about month after that most
people will have starved to death or been killed by marauding gangs
taking what ever they can get by force.
There have been food riots, that is the populace rising up due to
lack of or cost of food, in many parts of the world recently. The
western media tend not to cover that sort of story for some reason...

Yes, I tend to agree with you. It would be worse in the USA with all
the guns too.

Have fun explaining why it wasn't with the great depression there

the great depression was an economic crisis, not a total breakdown in
civilisation.

We never see a total breakdown in civilisation anywhere, let alone in the
first world.

We didnt even get that with the Black Death, or in countrys that lost a
world war either.

Its just another silly little fantasy.

Simple.
People had much lower expectations and many were used to having it tough.

Also there was a lack of communication. It was hard to organise an
insurrection.

On 17/04/2012 01:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:18:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So a mere 30% increase in biological photosynthesis would be enough
to sweep all the human CO2 back into the organic matrix..to make
ultimately 'more fossil fuel'

Just bubble CO2 from powerstations into et see and let blue green
algae work.

The sea is a massively better construction than anything man made
when it comes to sweeping up CO2.

If it's that good why are CO2 levels rising?

system lag.

what you will most likely see if my hypothesis is reasonably meaningful,
is a LOT of blue-green algal blooms appearing, probably followed by a
lot of things that feed off them. Then when those things die, they carry
the carbon to the sea bed.

There isn't enough dissolved iron in mid oceanic seawater for them to
get going apart from near polluted river estuaries.

But first you have to wash the CO2 out of the air with lots of rain.

Parts of the southern far ocean are at the moment approaching saturation
point for dissolved CO2.

http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/press/pr...ease.php?id=89

The oceans will reach saturation capacity before too much longer and
then most of what we emit will stay in the atmosphere.

CO2 in sea water measurements will show when that has happened. IIRC te
half life in the atmosphere 5 oyears..

Even methane doesn't decay in the atmosphere that fast!

Normal figure for CO2 is taken to be 1/e life ~ 100 years but there is a
very long tail. You have a very curious selective memory when it suits
you to pretend that there is no problem with AGW.

That will take a few years. But that COULD be improved by pumping air
through seawater. Or even CO2.

Seeding the open oceans with iron sulphate has been considered as a way
of sequestering carbon dioxide and minor trials have occurred.

http://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/prepr...08-00_0782.pdf

Without the iron as fertiliser and in the right place you can forget it.

However there is as usual a debate about what happens once its in the
water..

http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-residence-time.htm

claims that it doesn't get sequestered by marine organisms for any
length of time.

If CO2 is actually a problem at all, which seems to be open to pretty
heated debate.

You mean that you refuse point blank to look at any evidence.

My guess is that as usual we don't have more than half an answer.

I reason that if there were not fairly hefty negative feedback systems
to regulate the atmosphere, we would have seen many violent and rapid
fluctuations of temperature associated with carbon dioxide in the past -
but the geological record does not show this.

Actually the geological record shows that relatively tiny changes in
average insolation at 65N where snow can accumulate are considerably
amplified by a combination of albedo changes and CO2 feedback.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Apr 16, 9:17*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 15, 10:33 pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:
[snip]
.

He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.
I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.
As a student.
I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time at CCAT.

Or dropped out. *Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?

you are truly sad and envious.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Bingo! That's no answer. The truth at last!

On Apr 17, 8:33*am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
harry wrote





Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote
Dave Liquorice wrote
Dave N wrote
I don't expect that I am the only to be disturbed by this rant of
yours.
Good, wake up and smell the coffee, yes it was a bit of a rant but
quite possibly not far from the truth. Modern society is balanced on
a razor sharp knife edge. Just look what happened the other week when
there was a merest hint of, note *hint* not that there "will be", a
fuel supply problem.
I guess most people don't realise that the supermarket shelves will
have significant empty spaces within 24 hours if the deliveries don't
arrive for what ever reason. Be that lack of fuel or lack of goods to
deliver. Once people start being restricted on what they can buy
either due to availability or restriction (1 loaf, 2 pints of milk,
indelible stamp to back of hand at checkout to stop people going
round again or simply not allowed into the store and have to queue to
get their allocated "ration"). It has the potential to get very
nasty, very quickly. Probably only last about month after that most
people will have starved to death or been killed by marauding gangs
taking what ever they can get by force.
There have been food riots, that is the populace rising up due to
lack of or cost of food, in many parts of the world recently. The
western media tend not to cover that sort of story for some reason....
Yes, I tend to agree with you. It would be worse in the USA with all the
guns too.
Have fun explaining why it wasn't with the great depression there
Simple.

Fraid not.

People had much lower expectations and many were used to having it tough.

Like hell they did in the 20s.

Also there was a lack of communication.

Like hell there was.

It was hard to organise an insurrection.

Have fun explaining the Bonus Armyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

The reality is that no modern first world country has had an insurrection
since the frogs had one and that's hardly what you might call modern anyway.


The the truely mindless. If hasn't happened, it won't happen.

On Apr 17, 8:43*am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
harry wrote





Rod Speed wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote
Dave N wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote
Where I live on the other hand, armed with a couple of shotguns and
enough cartridges to fend off the worst of the feral chav population,
and access to farms , a vegetable garden, and livestock and even wild
bunnies and pigeons, plus a working knowledge of basic sanitation and
healthcare, I might just make it.
I don't expect that I am the only to be disturbed by this rant of
yours.
You appear to have moved beyond reason into clinical paranoia.
Not really.
Yes, really.
But its a matter of considering the logical consequences of actually
running out of energy.
Nope, its actually about you being completely off with the fairys.
Say fossil fuel.
We wont run out of fossil fuel any century soon. There is plenty
of coal to last for centurys. And we have been able to turn that
into fuel for our cars for almost a century now too.
And a government which has collapsed because no one will lend it any
money,
Govts don’t collapse because no one will lend it any money.
And even if that does happen, they just have to run a balanced budget.
so there is no one to pay the 'forces of laws and order'..
Even sillier. They are paid for by taxation if you cant borrow any money.
I invite you to analyse modern society in terms of a 'single
point of failure' - that being petroleum products.
There wont be any single point of failure, JUST an increase in price.
80% of which are imports.
But don’t have to be if the **** has hit the fan.
And even you should have noticed how that was handled during WW2 anyway.
I am sure I would have seemed just as mad if 10 years ago I had warned
you
that we faced possible total collapse of the worlds financial systems....
That didn’t happen either.
and a global recession lasting a decade or more..
That hasn’t happened either. There is no recession at all in some places.
So, consider the supply chains and the operation of infrastructure
with no coal, no nuclear, and little or no gas or oil ...
That aint gunna happen either. And didn’t happen during WW2 either.
and tell me how long the country would last.
You might as well mindlessly hyperventilate about how
long the country would last if invaded by martians etc.
And where an in what way it would fail first.
We'd just see rationing like we did in WW2.
Weeks. And in the cities, it would make 'shawn of the dead' look like a
comedy..:-)
Just another of your silly little fantasys.
I don't often agree with TurNiP, but on this occasion he is entirely
correct.

Like hell he is.

If electricity failed for say a week, there would be rioting, murder and
mass panic in the cities.

Have fun explaining why that didn’t happen in Quebec either when
a severe ice storm quite literally brought down the high voltage
power lines that supplied the entire area for much longer than that.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A..._storm_of_1998

Everywere, anywhere.

Just another of your silly little pig ignorant fantasys


Because they knew help and the police were not far away.

On Apr 17, 9:01*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 01:42:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I reason that if there were not fairly hefty negative feedback systems
to regulate the atmosphere, we would have seen many violent and rapid
fluctuations of temperature associated with carbon dioxide in the past -
but the geological record does not show this.

There have been some fairly hefty and rapid temperature swings but on
geological times scales ie a few hundred years is but a second...

I feel the system is damped but chaotic, it will very slowly alter
under the influence changes but will suddenly (geological) "flip" to
another relatively stable state. The damping means hysterisis so it
doesn't "chatter" around tipping point.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Never heard of "tipping points?"

harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote
Dave Liquorice wrote
Dave N wrote

I don't expect that I am the only to be disturbed by this rant of
yours.

Good, wake up and smell the coffee, yes it was a bit of a rant but
quite possibly not far from the truth. Modern society is balanced on
a razor sharp knife edge. Just look what happened the other week
when
there was a merest hint of, note *hint* not that there "will be", a
fuel supply problem.

I guess most people don't realise that the supermarket shelves will
have significant empty spaces within 24 hours if the deliveries
don't
arrive for what ever reason. Be that lack of fuel or lack of goods
to
deliver. Once people start being restricted on what they can buy
either due to availability or restriction (1 loaf, 2 pints of milk,
indelible stamp to back of hand at checkout to stop people going
round again or simply not allowed into the store and have to queue
to
get their allocated "ration"). It has the potential to get very
nasty, very quickly. Probably only last about month after that most
people will have starved to death or been killed by marauding gangs
taking what ever they can get by force.

There have been food riots, that is the populace rising up due to
lack of or cost of food, in many parts of the world recently. The
western media tend not to cover that sort of story for some
reason...

Yes, I tend to agree with you. It would be worse in the USA with all
the guns too.

Have fun explaining why it wasn't with the great depression there

Simple.

Fraid not.

People had much lower expectations and many were used to having it
tough.

Like hell they did in the 20s.

Also there was a lack of communication.

Like hell there was.

It was hard to organise an insurrection.

Have fun explaining the Bonus Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

The reality is that no modern first world country has had an insurrection
since the frogs had one and that's hardly what you might call modern
anyway.

The the truely mindless.

Your sig is sposed to be last with a line with just -- on it in front of it.

If hasn't happened, it won't happen.

If you are claiming that we would see anything like the complete
collapse of civilisation, as you mindlessly did, you had better be able
to come up with even a single example of that actually happening.

Particularly when even the great depression and
losing a world war didn't produce anything like that.

harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote
Dave N wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

Where I live on the other hand, armed with a couple of shotguns and
enough cartridges to fend off the worst of the feral chav
population,
and access to farms , a vegetable garden, and livestock and even
wild
bunnies and pigeons, plus a working knowledge of basic sanitation
and
healthcare, I might just make it.

I don't expect that I am the only to be disturbed by this rant of
yours.

You appear to have moved beyond reason into clinical paranoia.

Not really.

Yes, really.

But its a matter of considering the logical consequences of actually
running out of energy.

Nope, its actually about you being completely off with the fairys.

Say fossil fuel.

We wont run out of fossil fuel any century soon. There is plenty
of coal to last for centurys. And we have been able to turn that
into fuel for our cars for almost a century now too.

And a government which has collapsed because no one will lend it any
money,

Govts don’t collapse because no one will lend it any money.
And even if that does happen, they just have to run a balanced budget.

so there is no one to pay the 'forces of laws and order'..

Even sillier. They are paid for by taxation if you cant borrow any
money.

I invite you to analyse modern society in terms of a 'single
point of failure' - that being petroleum products.

There wont be any single point of failure, JUST an increase in price.

80% of which are imports.

But don’t have to be if the **** has hit the fan.
And even you should have noticed how that was handled during WW2
anyway.

I am sure I would have seemed just as mad if 10 years ago I had
warned
you that we faced possible total collapse of the worlds financial
systems...

That didn’t happen either.

and a global recession lasting a decade or more..

That hasn’t happened either. There is no recession at all in some
places.

So, consider the supply chains and the operation of infrastructure
with no coal, no nuclear, and little or no gas or oil ...

That aint gunna happen either. And didn’t happen during WW2 either.

and tell me how long the country would last.

You might as well mindlessly hyperventilate about how
long the country would last if invaded by martians etc.

And where an in what way it would fail first.

We'd just see rationing like we did in WW2.

Weeks. And in the cities, it would make 'shawn of the dead' look like
a comedy..:-)

Just another of your silly little fantasys.

I don't often agree with TurNiP, but on this occasion he is entirely
correct.

Like hell he is.

If electricity failed for say a week, there would be rioting, murder
and mass panic in the cities.

Have fun explaining why that didn’t happen in Quebec either when
a severe ice storm quite literally brought down the high voltage
power lines that supplied the entire area for much longer than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A..._storm_of_1998

Everywere, anywhere.

Just another of your silly little pig ignorant fantasys

Because they knew help and the police were not far away.

And that would be the case if there wasn’t enough power in a cold snap too.

Electricity wouldn’t fail for a week, it would just be rationed.

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

I feel the system is damped but chaotic, it will very slowly alter
under the influence changes but will suddenly (geological) "flip"
to
another relatively stable state. The damping means hysterisis so
it
doesn't "chatter" around tipping point.

Never heard of "tipping points?"

Eh? Where have you been?

The point where a system rapidly changes from one stable state to
another under the influence of a signal.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 16, 9:59*pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, harry
writes





On Apr 15, 10:33*pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:

[snip]
.

He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.

I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.

As a student.

I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time at CCAT.

Or dropped out. *Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?

Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?

Or professional ones

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.

Sundry other odds & sods

And you?


Degree in physics


so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue

no wonder you are out of your depth



ONC in applied heat ?

"'ere yungun, grab this glowing red bar"
--
geoff

In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 17, 9:01*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 01:42:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I reason that if there were not fairly hefty negative feedback systems
to regulate the atmosphere, we would have seen many violent and rapid
fluctuations of temperature associated with carbon dioxide in the past -
but the geological record does not show this.

There have been some fairly hefty and rapid temperature swings but on
geological times scales ie a few hundred years is but a second...

I feel the system is damped but chaotic, it will very slowly alter
under the influence changes but will suddenly (geological) "flip" to
another relatively stable state. The damping means hysterisis so it
doesn't "chatter" around tipping point.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Never heard of "tipping points?"

That's because you is thick


--
geoff

geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 16, 9:59 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, harry
writes





On Apr 15, 10:33 pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:

[snip]
.

He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.

I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.

As a student.

I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time
at CCAT.

Or dropped out. Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?

Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?

Or professional ones

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.

Sundry other odds & sods

And you?


Degree in physics


so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue

no wonder you are out of your depth



+1


ONC in applied heat ?

"'ere yungun, grab this glowing red bar"

nah.."this is where the shovel is and that's where to coke is and that's
where you put the coke in. No NOT up yer nose yer wazzzuck!"


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Apr 17, 9:53*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
I feel the system is damped but chaotic, it will very slowly alter
under the influence changes but will suddenly (geological) "flip"
to
another relatively stable state. The damping means hysterisis so
it
doesn't "chatter" around tipping point.

Never heard of *"tipping points?"

Eh? Where have you been?

The point where a system rapidly changes from one stable state to
another under the influence of a signal.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Exactly so.
There's a possibility this can happen with the global climate.
Eg if the worlds permafrost melts and the peat rots releasing CO2/
methane.
Or this gets released.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate#Oceanic
Signs of it happening already.

On Apr 17, 11:42*pm, geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes





On Apr 16, 9:59*pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, harry
writes

On Apr 15, 10:33*pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:

[snip]
.

He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.

I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.

As a student.

I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time at CCAT.

Or dropped out. *Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?

Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?

Or professional ones

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.

Sundry other odds & sods

And you?

Degree in physics

so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue

no wonder you are out of your depth

ONC in applied heat ?

And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant.
Runing the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.

Not some theory man.

On Apr 18, 12:09*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 16, 9:59 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, harry
writes

On Apr 15, 10:33 pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:

[snip]
.

He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.

I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.

As a student.

I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time
at CCAT.

Or dropped out. *Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?

Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?

Or professional ones

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.

Sundry other odds & sods

And you?

Degree in physics

so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue

no wonder you are out of your depth

+1



ONC in applied heat ?

"'ere yungun, grab this glowing red bar"

nah.."this is where the shovel is and that's where to coke is and that's
where you put the coke in. No NOT up yer nose yer wazzzuck!"

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We haven't heard about you TurNiP. How you lost your vast wealth and
what you have done with your failed life.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Apr 17, 9:53 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
I feel the system is damped but chaotic, it will very slowly alter
under the influence changes but will suddenly (geological) "flip"
to
another relatively stable state. The damping means hysterisis so
it
doesn't "chatter" around tipping point.

Never heard of "tipping points?"

Eh? Where have you been?

The point where a system rapidly changes from one stable state to
another under the influence of a signal.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Exactly so.
There's a possibility this can happen with the global climate.
Eg if the worlds permafrost melts and the peat rots releasing CO2/
methane.
Or this gets released.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate#Oceanic

Signs of it happening already.

Nope, not one.

harry wrote:
On Apr 17, 11:42 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes





On Apr 16, 9:59 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, harry
writes
On Apr 15, 10:33 pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:
[snip]
.
He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.
I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.
As a student.
I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time at CCAT.
Or dropped out. Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?
Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?
Or professional ones
--
geoff- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.
Sundry other odds & sods
And you?
Degree in physics

so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue

no wonder you are out of your depth

ONC in applied heat ?

And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant.
Runing the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.

Not some theory man.

Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to peak about the theory of heat engines?



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

harry wrote:
On Apr 18, 12:09 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 16, 9:59 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, harry
writes
On Apr 15, 10:33 pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:
[snip]
.
He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.
I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.
As a student.
I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time
at CCAT.
Or dropped out. Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?
Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?
Or professional ones
--
geoff- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.
Sundry other odds & sods
And you?
Degree in physics
so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue
no wonder you are out of your depth
+1



ONC in applied heat ?
"'ere yungun, grab this glowing red bar"
nah.."this is where the shovel is and that's where to coke is and that's
where you put the coke in. No NOT up yer nose yer wazzzuck!"

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We haven't heard about you TurNiP. How you lost your vast wealth and
what you have done with your failed life.

leading questions harry. I cant answer questions that are in themselves
lies.


AND its none of your business actually.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

harry wrote:
On Apr 17, 9:53 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
I feel the system is damped but chaotic, it will very slowly alter
under the influence changes but will suddenly (geological) "flip"
to
another relatively stable state. The damping means hysterisis so
it
doesn't "chatter" around tipping point.
Never heard of "tipping points?"
Eh? Where have you been?

The point where a system rapidly changes from one stable state to
another under the influence of a signal.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Exactly so.
There's a possibility this can happen with the global climate.
Eg if the worlds permafrost melts and the peat rots releasing CO2/
methane.
Or this gets released.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate#Oceanic
Signs of it happening already.

And of course its happened so often in the past when CO2 levels have
been 5, 10 times higher and the earth was colder than it is now, hasn't it.

The thing about balancing pencils on their points harry is that they
never stay that way for very long. In fact its pretty reliable a thing
to say, that if you find a pencil somewhere, it wont be balancing on its
point.

That doesn't stop greentards claiming that they have of course, but
ordinary people with common sense know they are ****ing liars.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On 18/04/2012 11:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 17, 11:42 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes





On Apr 16, 9:59 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry
writes
On Apr 15, 10:33 pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:
[snip]
.
He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.
I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.
As a student.
I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time
at CCAT.
Or dropped out. Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?
Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?
Or professional ones
--
geoff- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.
Sundry other odds & sods
And you?
Degree in physics

so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue

no wonder you are out of your depth

ONC in applied heat ?

And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant.
Runing the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.

Not some theory man.

Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to peak about the theory of heat engines?



Come on, we all know how truly effing useless some academics are in the
real world, even the Oxbridge ones.

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:22:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to peak about the theory of heat engines?

Jesus H. Christ.
What snobbery.
No wonder I've been considering binning you for months.

stuart noble wrote:
On 18/04/2012 11:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
harry wrote:

And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant.
Runing the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.

Not some theory man.

Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to peak about the theory of heat engines?



Come on, we all know how truly effing useless some academics are in the
real world, even the Oxbridge ones.


The point is that as any real world engineer knows, there are two basic
ways to attack a problem: from the practical side or from the theoretical.

They are complementary.

Theory tends to tell you want you simply cannot do. Like fly to the moon
powered by an elastic band. Theory sets the 'as good as it gets' l;imits
on engineering.

Practice is the other way round. It is patently possible to make a steam
engine AT LEAST as efficient/powerful/fast/whatever as the last one you
made.

The answer to the question 'will a 6x4 lump of timber across an 8ft span
support 5 tonnes;' is a hefty calculation but dead easy when you can say
"there's one over there already doing it" or "there's one we tried last
week and it broke"

OTOH this simple way to get quick solutions is downright dangerous to
apply to situations such as 'we cant say whether or not renewable
energy will ever work UNTIL WE HAVE TRIED IT'.


When theory can tell you that it never ever will work in the way the
harrys of this world want it to.

But because harry envies academics and has no understandings of it and
because he has an ego the size of the planet that cannot accept that
someone actually knows better than he does, he will inevitably dismiss
all that.

Ergo anyone who has got the knowledge is a lying bull****ter or a snotty
head in the clouds academic.

Academics don't get things wrong so much as people ask them the wrong
questions and don't understand the answers they give.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:22:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to peak about the theory of heat engines?

Jesus H. Christ.
What snobbery.
No wonder I've been considering binning you for months.

The snobbery is all harry's mate,.

And it now seems, yours.

So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?

HOW convenient!


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Apr 18, 11:23*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 18, 12:09 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
geoff wrote:
In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 16, 9:59 pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, harry
writes
On Apr 15, 10:33 pm, Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:12 pm, wrote:
[snip]
.
He has claimed attendance at Cambridge in the past.
I think he was the janitor there.
I didn't claim it harry, I did attend it.
As a student.
I'm sure you did and I'm sure that you made the most of your time
at CCAT.
Or dropped out. *Do they have a degree in environmental cleansing?
Would you like to remind us what academic qualifications you have,
Harry?
Or professional ones
--
geoff- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
C&G electrical installations.
5yr apprenticeship.
HNC in electical machines, power, control systems, industrial
administration
ONC in Applied heat, applied mechanics.
Sundry other odds & sods
And you?
Degree in physics
so, you were a jobbing fitter who does the bits that nobody else wants,
shown how to do things by some other pratt who doesn't have a clue
no wonder you are out of your depth
+1

ONC in applied heat ?
"'ere yungun, grab this glowing red bar"
nah.."this is where the shovel is and that's where to coke is and that's
where you put the coke in. No NOT up yer nose yer wazzzuck!"

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We haven't heard about you TurNiP. How you lost your vast wealth and
what you have done with your failed life.

leading questions harry. I cant answer questions that are in themselves
lies.

AND its none of your business actually.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So now we know. Failed.
No wonder you keep dodging the issue

On Apr 18, 1:15*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:22:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:
Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to peak about the theory of heat engines?

Jesus H. Christ.
What snobbery.
No wonder I've been considering binning you for months.

You can tell what he's like by his little suffix/ditty he puts on the
bottom of his posts. Total ******.

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 06:59:06 +0100, harry wrote:
snip

And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant.
Runing the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.

spelin not nesessarry

Jim K

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?

Hardly.
But I will tell you this - I detest intellectual snobs, for they are
the worst type of all, insofar as they very often have little to be
snobbish about.

wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?

Hardly.
But I will tell you this - I detest intellectual snobs, for they are
the worst type of all, insofar as they very often have little to be
snobbish about.

And I detect anti-intellectual snobs who have even less.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?
Hardly.
But I will tell you this - I detest intellectual snobs, for they are
the worst type of all, insofar as they very often have little to be
snobbish about.

Ah, people like harry, you mean? He's been busy sneering at academic
qualifications. He's also been talking cobblers about various topics.
What do you suggest that those who actually know something about the
topic should do?

I'm able to say that my technical qualifications match and probably
pre-date Harry's but I will continue to keep my head down:-)

I also have Electronics and Computer Technology at HNC endorsement level
but so incredibly rusty.... who wants to know about vacuum valves anyway
or Elliot 80 ALGOL.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

In article , Tim Lamb
scribeth thus
In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?
Hardly.
But I will tell you this - I detest intellectual snobs, for they are
the worst type of all, insofar as they very often have little to be
snobbish about.

Ah, people like harry, you mean? He's been busy sneering at academic
qualifications. He's also been talking cobblers about various topics.
What do you suggest that those who actually know something about the
topic should do?

I'm able to say that my technical qualifications match and probably
pre-date Harry's but I will continue to keep my head down:-)



I also have Electronics and Computer Technology at HNC endorsement level
but so incredibly rusty.... who wants to know about vacuum valves anyway
or Elliot 80 ALGOL.

regards




Umm .. valves or thermonic devices are now being used in the latest
digital TV transmitters where there're more efficient !....
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
scribeth thus
In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?
Hardly.
But I will tell you this - I detest intellectual snobs, for they are
the worst type of all, insofar as they very often have little to be
snobbish about.
Ah, people like harry, you mean? He's been busy sneering at academic
qualifications. He's also been talking cobblers about various topics.
What do you suggest that those who actually know something about the
topic should do?
I'm able to say that my technical qualifications match and probably
pre-date Harry's but I will continue to keep my head down:-)



I also have Electronics and Computer Technology at HNC endorsement level
but so incredibly rusty.... who wants to know about vacuum valves anyway
or Elliot 80 ALGOL.

regards




Umm .. valves or thermonic devices are now being used in the latest
digital TV transmitters where there're more efficient !....

and in undersea DC cable inverters.

An ON voltage of 50V isn't so bad when you are dealing in kilovolts!


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article ,
stuart noble wrote:

On 18/04/2012 11:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
harry wrote:

And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant. Running the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.

Er no harry. The theory was applied by the qualified engineers and such
who designed the stuff you're running.

Not some theory man.

Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to speak about the theory of heat engines?

Come on, we all know how truly effing useless some academics are in
the real world, even the Oxbridge ones.

True, but what have academics to do with the issue?

Some of them end up selling it on street corners


--
geoff

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
tony sayer wrote:
Umm .. valves or thermonic devices are now being used in the latest
digital TV transmitters where there're more efficient !....

and in undersea DC cable inverters.

An ON voltage of 50V isn't so bad when you are dealing in kilovolts!

I do remember wondering if the mercury arc rectifiers in the power and
machines lab pushed out much RF interference.

I hit a bit of an *intelligence* ceiling and struggled with engineering
physics which was a requirement for institute part three courses.

Oh well! I enjoy farming:-)

regards



--
Tim Lamb

On Apr 18, 10:07*pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?

Hardly.
But I will tell you this - I detest intellectual snobs, for they are
the worst type of all, insofar as they very often have little to be
snobbish about.

Ah, people like harry, you mean? He's been busy sneering at academic
qualifications. He's also been talking cobblers about various topics.
What do you suggest that those who actually know something about the
topic should do?


Which cobblers about which topics?

On Apr 19, 2:13*am, geoff wrote:
In message , Tim
Streater writes



In article ,
stuart noble wrote:

On 18/04/2012 11:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
harry wrote:

And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant. Running the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.

Er no harry. The theory was applied by the qualified engineers and such
who designed the stuff you're running.

Not some theory man.

Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to speak about the theory of heat engines?

Come on, we all know how truly effing useless some academics are in
the *real world, even the Oxbridge ones.

True, but what have academics to do with the issue?

Some of them end up selling it on street corners



Some of them end up in poverty through ineptitude/stupidity (as is
claimed by TurNiP) Or was there a woman involved?

We don't actually know that he has any qualifications at all.

harry wrote:
On Apr 18, 10:07 pm, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
So basically you share the same attitude as harry, that if the truth
hurts the person telling it is morally reprehensible?
Hardly.
But I will tell you this - I detest intellectual snobs, for they are
the worst type of all, insofar as they very often have little to be
snobbish about.
Ah, people like harry, you mean? He's been busy sneering at academic
qualifications. He's also been talking cobblers about various topics.
What do you suggest that those who actually know something about the
topic should do?


Which cobblers about which topics?

every time you open your arse harry.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

harry wrote:
On Apr 19, 2:13 am, geoff wrote:
In message , Tim
Streater writes



In article ,
stuart noble wrote:
On 18/04/2012 11:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
harry wrote:
And forty years experience in the field running large industrial
plant. Running the maintainance departments in large hospitals.
The application of theory to practical situations.
Er no harry. The theory was applied by the qualified engineers and such
who designed the stuff you're running.
Not some theory man.
Exactly. So as a sort of lorry driver, you think have the qualifications
to speak about the theory of heat engines?
Come on, we all know how truly effing useless some academics are in
the real world, even the Oxbridge ones.
True, but what have academics to do with the issue?
Some of them end up selling it on street corners



Some of them end up in poverty through ineptitude/stupidity (as is
claimed by TurNiP) Or was there a woman involved?

We don't actually know that he has any qualifications at all.

You don't. Others do.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.