http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...26pLid%3D97334

En el artículo
roups.com, harry escribió:

http://www.huffiBLAM

I Can't Stand Those Frigging American Newspapers And Websites That
Unnecessarily Capitalise The First Letter Of Every Word In The Headline.

It Looks So Fecking Stupid.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:49:16 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...26pLid%3D97334

AIUI the safest place to be when your vehicle is in contact with
electricity is inside the vehicle. That presupposes that the said
vehicle is not on fire of course.
The piece implies that he was electrocuted inside the vehicle, I
wonder if that is true.



--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 21/02/2012 20:40, Graham. wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:49:16 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...26pLid%3D97334

AIUI the safest place to be when your vehicle is in contact with
electricity is inside the vehicle. That presupposes that the said
vehicle is not on fire of course.
The piece implies that he was electrocuted inside the vehicle, I
wonder if that is true.

No it is physically impossible. The car body would behave like a Faraday
cage - although modern composites much less so than steel but a metallic
paint on carbon composite would be close enough. There are some pretty
good stage artists that do clever shows based on a superb knowledge of
what is safe with large currents flowing on the exterior.

An appropriate ArcAttack for the UK - Dr Who theme performed in part by
a stunt man in chain mail stood between two MV class tuned telsa coils.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdrqd...eature=related

They caused quite a stir when they first appeared on Americas Got Talent
as the judges really didn't know what to make of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=KbS50_65UjI

They got a lot more showmanship into their act by the semifinals.

The unfortunate footballer would be electrocuted when he had one foot on
the ground and a hand still touching the metal body of the car. The
others presumably didn't touch anything conductive as they got out OK.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:17:46 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 21/02/2012 20:40, Graham. wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:49:16 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...26pLid%3D97334

AIUI the safest place to be when your vehicle is in contact with
electricity is inside the vehicle. That presupposes that the said
vehicle is not on fire of course.
The piece implies that he was electrocuted inside the vehicle, I
wonder if that is true.

No it is physically impossible. The car body would behave like a Faraday
cage - although modern composites much less so than steel but a metallic
paint on carbon composite would be close enough. There are some pretty
good stage artists that do clever shows based on a superb knowledge of
what is safe with large currents flowing on the exterior.

An appropriate ArcAttack for the UK - Dr Who theme performed in part by
a stunt man in chain mail stood between two MV class tuned telsa coils.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdrqd...eature=related

They caused quite a stir when they first appeared on Americas Got Talent
as the judges really didn't know what to make of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=KbS50_65UjI

They got a lot more showmanship into their act by the semifinals.

The unfortunate footballer would be electrocuted when he had one foot on
the ground and a hand still touching the metal body of the car. The
others presumably didn't touch anything conductive as they got out OK.

That's what I thought, and that's what happened; he tried to exit the
vehicle, but if he could have hung on for a few more seconds he might
have been OK.

Full account here,

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2012FAI17.html

Read from about Para 83

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Feb 21, 9:17 pm, Martin Brown
wrote:

They got a lot more showmanship into their act by the semifinals.

and thankfully hid the headbanging geek on the organ turned upto
11....

Jim K

In article ,
Martin Brown writes:

The unfortunate footballer would be electrocuted when he had one foot on
the ground and a hand still touching the metal body of the car. The
others presumably didn't touch anything conductive as they got out OK.

There used to be a set of accident pictures on the web with
something not dissimilar. A car hit a reinforced concrete
pole (of the type commonly found in some other contries, but
not common in UK). The driver was not hurt, opened the door,
put a foot out, and was prompty electrocuted by the high
voltage (don't recall what voltage, but the lines were many
thousands of volts). Driver's legs ended up like a lump of
charcoal which also burned out part of the car.

You had to look carefully to see what had happened, and the
photographer had captured all the relevant evidence.
When the car hit the pole, the pole stayed upright and the
HV wires didn't come down. However, one of the wires came
off its insulator and was resting on the metal cross-arm, so
the cross-arm was now live. At the bottom of the pole, the
car had chipped off some concrete and was resting on one of
the internal metal reinforcing bars. There was obviously a
connection between the metal cross-arm and the rebar in the
concrete. This left the car sitting at many thousands of
volts, which was OK until the driver tried to step out.

It's interesting to think what you should do in a scenario
where your car body is connected to high voltage. You can't
sit there for too long as the tyre rubber conducts high
voltage well enough to slowly catch fire (find a video of
a digger or cherry picker hitting HV cables to see this).
You could jump out of the car so there's never a connection
through you between the car and ground. This then exposes
you to a secondary risk - that there's a potential across
the ground which is large enough to bring you down with your
first stride. So you need to jump out landing feet together
(as though tied), and then jump away in a similar style,
or hop, but falling over in the process could be lethal.
Anyway, well worth thinking through before it happens to
you.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Graham. wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:49:16 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...26pLid%3D97334

AIUI the safest place to be when your vehicle is in contact with
electricity is inside the vehicle. That presupposes that the said
vehicle is not on fire of course.
The piece implies that he was electrocuted inside the vehicle, I
wonder if that is true.

No it doesn't. It says he was found on the ground beside the vehicle, which
was on fire.

Tim

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:31:12 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Martin Brown writes:

The unfortunate footballer would be electrocuted when he had one foot on
the ground and a hand still touching the metal body of the car. The
others presumably didn't touch anything conductive as they got out OK.

There used to be a set of accident pictures on the web with
something not dissimilar. A car hit a reinforced concrete
pole (of the type commonly found in some other contries, but
not common in UK). The driver was not hurt, opened the door,
put a foot out, and was prompty electrocuted by the high
voltage (don't recall what voltage, but the lines were many
thousands of volts). Driver's legs ended up like a lump of
charcoal which also burned out part of the car.

You had to look carefully to see what had happened, and the
photographer had captured all the relevant evidence.
When the car hit the pole, the pole stayed upright and the
HV wires didn't come down. However, one of the wires came
off its insulator and was resting on the metal cross-arm, so
the cross-arm was now live. At the bottom of the pole, the
car had chipped off some concrete and was resting on one of
the internal metal reinforcing bars. There was obviously a
connection between the metal cross-arm and the rebar in the
concrete. This left the car sitting at many thousands of
volts, which was OK until the driver tried to step out.

It's interesting to think what you should do in a scenario
where your car body is connected to high voltage. You can't
sit there for too long as the tyre rubber conducts high
voltage well enough to slowly catch fire (find a video of
a digger or cherry picker hitting HV cables to see this).
You could jump out of the car so there's never a connection
through you between the car and ground. This then exposes
you to a secondary risk - that there's a potential across
the ground which is large enough to bring you down with your
first stride. So you need to jump out landing feet together
(as though tied), and then jump away in a similar style,
or hop, but falling over in the process could be lethal.
Anyway, well worth thinking through before it happens to
you.


Reading the Sheriff's report in this case, it seems that the
difference between life and death might be to take an educated guess
at the breaker re-closure sequence, and in particular, to try to
determine when it has given up retrying.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:25:44 +0000, Graham. wrote:


It's interesting to think what you should do in a scenario
where your car body is connected to high voltage.

You could jump out of the car so there's never a connection
through you between the car and ground.

Reading the Sheriff's report in this case, it seems that the
difference between life and death might be to take an educated guess
at the breaker re-closure sequence, and in particular, to try to
determine when it has given up retrying.

I would think that the number of people who even know what a
re-closure sequence is will be a very small percentage of the
population. Those who get their supply by an overhead network may
have wondered why the lights go off and then come back on again and
either stay on or extinguish again may have picked up the
reason,but my other half did not know and neither did our neighbour
when the subject came up once following a windy night. A lot of people
think it is just some operator switching supplies somewhere if they
actually think about it all. And even if somebody is aware in the
immediate aftermath of such an accident would they be in the right
frame of mind to remember such a thing .

G.Harman

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:33:15 +0000, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:25:44 +0000, Graham. wrote:


It's interesting to think what you should do in a scenario
where your car body is connected to high voltage.

You could jump out of the car so there's never a connection
through you between the car and ground.

Reading the Sheriff's report in this case, it seems that the
difference between life and death might be to take an educated guess
at the breaker re-closure sequence, and in particular, to try to
determine when it has given up retrying.

I would think that the number of people who even know what a
re-closure sequence is will be a very small percentage of the
population. Those who get their supply by an overhead network may
have wondered why the lights go off and then come back on again and
either stay on or extinguish again may have picked up the
reason,but my other half did not know and neither did our neighbour
when the subject came up once following a windy night. A lot of people
think it is just some operator switching supplies somewhere if they
actually think about it all. And even if somebody is aware in the
immediate aftermath of such an accident would they be in the right
frame of mind to remember such a thing .

G.Harman

What you say is indisputable for the general population, but those of
us in uk.diy after reading that report might make the right call if we
were unfortunate enough to be in that position.

I once saw a full sized supergrid pylon lying on its side by the
roadside from a coach window. This was in Israel after the worst rain
they had had for decades.

One poignant thing in that report reminds us that sometimes an
operator makes the decision to attempt to restore the power, and there
is the possibility that he could unwittingly become someone's
executioner.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:49:16 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

So?

En el artículo , Andrew Gabriel
escribió:

So you need to jump out landing feet together
(as though tied), and then jump away in a similar style,
or hop, but falling over in the process could be lethal.
Anyway, well worth thinking through before it happens to
you.

I doubt anyone does much "thinking through" in a situation like that.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In message , Mike Tomlinson
writes
En el artículo
roups.com, harry escribió:

http://www.huffiBLAM

I Can't Stand Those Frigging American Newspapers And Websites That
Unnecessarily Capitalise The First Letter Of Every Word In The Headline.

It Looks So Fecking Stupid.

I think Harry's realised that the only way he doesn't get jumped on for
his stupid remarks is just to post irrelevant crap and xenophobic quotes


--
geoff

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:40:44 +0000, Graham. wrote:

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:49:16 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...26pLid%3D97334

AIUI the safest place to be when your vehicle is in contact with
electricity is inside the vehicle. That presupposes that the said
vehicle is not on fire of course.

Maybe 20 years ago a crane driver hit the overhead lines not too far
away from a nuclear power station in the UK. The tyres exploded and
it sunk partly into a large crater under each wheel.

As there was high speed auto reclose on this overhead line, the
circuit was re-energised and the crane got another hit just 500ms
later. Luckily he was still in the cab. He then climbed down and made
it away from the crane before a final automatic attempt to re-energise
was made a few 10's of seconds later.

He survived, the crane and the road were, to put it mildly wrecked.
There were no indications as to the state of his underwear


--

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:40:07 +0000, Graham. wrote:

One poignant thing in that report reminds us that sometimes an
operator makes the decision to attempt to restore the power, and there
is the possibility that he could unwittingly become someone's
executioner.

More often than not it's a configuration parameter in a box of
electronics and nothing to do with a human operatorn pressing buttons
at the time of the incident.


--

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:40:07 +0000, Graham. wrote:

Reading the Sheriff's report in this case, it seems that the
difference between life and death might be to take an educated
guess
at the breaker re-closure sequence, and in particular, to try to
determine when it has given up retrying.

The one in our feed with a gross fault would have locked out in less
than ten seconds and at most three, possibly only two attempts at
reconnecting. I'm not quite sure what the timing is for intermittent
faults it might be three trips in a minute or three trips in five
minutes before it locks out.

Having been under our pole when an insulator had failed you know when
the power is on by the buzzing noise and smoke...

I would think that the number of people who even know what a
re-closure sequence is will be a very small percentage of the
population.

What you say is indisputable for the general population, but those of
us in uk.diy after reading that report might make the right call if we
were unfortunate enough to be in that position.

Agreed. Even though I knew about re-closures I probably wouldn't have
made the connection should I have wrapped a car around a pole and
brought the lines down.

One poignant thing in that report reminds us that sometimes an
operator makes the decision to attempt to restore the power, and there
is the possibility that he could unwittingly become someone's
executioner.

One reason to keep well clear of fallen lines even if they are dead.
They may become energised and leap about, may only be a second before
the re-closure trips but that is long enough...

Not quite sure what the linesmen do when trying to trace a fault. I
know they repeatedly try to energise the line and I think they move
some form of ground voltage/current detector about between attempts.
There aren't enough switches to open/close to narrow down the section
with the fault.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Andrew Gabriel :
It's interesting to think what you should do in a scenario
where your car body is connected to high voltage. You can't
sit there for too long as the tyre rubber conducts high
voltage well enough to slowly catch fire (find a video of
a digger or cherry picker hitting HV cables to see this).
You could jump out of the car so there's never a connection
through you between the car and ground. This then exposes
you to a secondary risk - that there's a potential across
the ground which is large enough to bring you down with your
first stride. So you need to jump out landing feet together
(as though tied), and then jump away in a similar style,
or hop, but falling over in the process could be lethal.
Anyway, well worth thinking through before it happens to
you.

My thoughts are leading me towards a dive into a forward roll.

Sixty years ago I could have done it. :-(

--
Mike Barnes

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:40:07 +0000, Graham. wrote:

Reading the Sheriff's report in this case, it seems that the
difference between life and death might be to take an educated
guess
at the breaker re-closure sequence, and in particular, to try to
determine when it has given up retrying.

The one in our feed with a gross fault would have locked out in less
than ten seconds and at most three, possibly only two attempts at
reconnecting. I'm not quite sure what the timing is for intermittent
faults it might be three trips in a minute or three trips in five
minutes before it locks out.

They can be set to retry between one and three times; this one only
retried once for short circuits, and the short circuit (caused by the
conductors momentarily conducting as the pole fell and they detacted
from the insulators) cleared when the wires stopped shaking around,
so that reclose worked.

The next trip was caused by an earth fault due to one of the
conductors having got hooked under the car bumper. The leakage current
was relatively low and thus took a while to trip, but earth faults are
handled by a separate breaker with a separate trip counter.

The control room knew the line tripped twice, but didn't know the
second trip was an earth fault because a monitoring signal wire from
the earth fault breaker had been left disconnected. However, this
was not considered a contributory factor in the death - nothing
different would have been done by the controllers even if they had
known.

Having been under our pole when an insulator had failed you know when
the power is on by the buzzing noise and smoke...

I did have a failed 11kV insulator many years ago, but I forgot
to take it when I moved house. It had a condensed metalic track
from the top wire grove all the way down the sheds to the metal
support, presumably as a result of a flashover.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:59:19 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The control room knew the line tripped twice, but didn't know the
second trip was an earth fault because a monitoring signal wire from
the earth fault breaker had been left disconnected. However, this
was not considered a contributory factor in the death - nothing
different would have been done by the controllers even if they had
known.

Judging by the time it takes for our power to come back once the
re-closure has locked out our DNO can't remotely reset it. Needs men
in Land Rovers to do it manually and/or adjust the manual switches to
get a feed by some other route.

They normally know they have a "HV fault" by the time I ring them up
to report it, normally within 5 or 10 mins of the loss.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:42:01 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:59:19 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The control room knew the line tripped twice, but didn't know the
second trip was an earth fault because a monitoring signal wire from
the earth fault breaker had been left disconnected. However, this
was not considered a contributory factor in the death - nothing
different would have been done by the controllers even if they had
known.

Judging by the time it takes for our power to come back once the
re-closure has locked out our DNO can't remotely reset it. Needs men
in Land Rovers to do it manually and/or adjust the manual switches to
get a feed by some other route.

They normally know they have a "HV fault" by the time I ring them up
to report it, normally within 5 or 10 mins of the loss.

Some breakers on LV networks (and even more modern 132kV breakers)
work on a clockwork mechanism. The spring is charged by a motor.
Have persistent trips and not only is there DAR lockout after a
defined number of attempts but the breaker may not have any charge due
to the substation also losing supply. They fail safe and so will not
close unless there is enough stored energy in the spring to
immediately open on persistent fault within the designed operating
time.


--

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown writes:

The unfortunate footballer would be electrocuted when he had one
foot on the ground and a hand still touching the metal body of the
car. The others presumably didn't touch anything conductive as they
got out OK.

There used to be a set of accident pictures on the web with
something not dissimilar. A car hit a reinforced concrete
pole (of the type commonly found in some other contries, but
not common in UK). The driver was not hurt, opened the door,
put a foot out, and was prompty electrocuted by the high
voltage (don't recall what voltage, but the lines were many
thousands of volts). Driver's legs ended up like a lump of
charcoal which also burned out part of the car.

You had to look carefully to see what had happened, and the
photographer had captured all the relevant evidence.
When the car hit the pole, the pole stayed upright and the
HV wires didn't come down. However, one of the wires came
off its insulator and was resting on the metal cross-arm, so
the cross-arm was now live. At the bottom of the pole, the
car had chipped off some concrete and was resting on one of
the internal metal reinforcing bars. There was obviously a
connection between the metal cross-arm and the rebar in the
concrete. This left the car sitting at many thousands of
volts, which was OK until the driver tried to step out.

It's interesting to think what you should do in a scenario
where your car body is connected to high voltage. You can't
sit there for too long as the tyre rubber conducts high
voltage well enough to slowly catch fire (find a video of
a digger or cherry picker hitting HV cables to see this).
You could jump out of the car so there's never a connection
through you between the car and ground. This then exposes
you to a secondary risk - that there's a potential across
the ground which is large enough to bring you down with your
first stride. So you need to jump out landing feet together
(as though tied), and then jump away in a similar style,
or hop, but falling over in the process could be lethal.
Anyway, well worth thinking through before it happens to
you.

There is planning ahead and then there is "planning ahead".

--
Adam

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:06:16 +0000, The Other Mike wrote:

Some breakers on LV networks (and even more modern 132kV breakers)
work on a clockwork mechanism.

ISTR the linesmen mentioning clockwork and/or something mechanical.

Have persistent trips and not only is there DAR lockout after a
defined number of attempts but the breaker may not have any charge due
to the substation also losing supply.

Loss of the 33kV to the local upstream substation very, very, rarely
happens, that 33kV feed has an 11kV backup running in parrallel with
it. More often than not if the power our side of the valley has gone,
the other side and village still have theirs. Those are fed from the
same upstream 33kV substation.

--
Cheers
Dave.