We're having problems trying to figure out how the CH works with a newly
installed system - Vaillant combi, Vaillant room stat (in the lounge),
and an Altech controller fitted next to the boiler:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room, kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously, there's no
water heating.

The third zone, lounge and bathroom, is controlled by the room stat. All
rooms have radiator thermostats except the lounge.

Now, this is all well and good and probably very clever, but the
radiators seem to have a will of their own. All zones are on constant
with stat valves fully open. The lounge is fine, always has been, and
temperature modulates in line with the room stat. But the other zones
vary between no heat, and luke warm as if providing background. Then,
occasionally, they'll belt out heat. The dining room and kitchen have
been cold all day. The basement's fine, well, 17C - where me and the
computer live.

Apart from ask the installer, which is not an option, any ideas please?

Thanks, Rob

Rob wrote:
We're having problems trying to figure out how the CH works with a newly
installed system - Vaillant combi, Vaillant room stat (in the lounge),
and an Altech controller fitted next to the boiler:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room, kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously, there's no
water heating.

The third zone, lounge and bathroom, is controlled by the room stat. All
rooms have radiator thermostats except the lounge.

Now, this is all well and good and probably very clever, but the
radiators seem to have a will of their own. All zones are on constant
with stat valves fully open. The lounge is fine, always has been, and
temperature modulates in line with the room stat. But the other zones
vary between no heat, and luke warm as if providing background. Then,
occasionally, they'll belt out heat. The dining room and kitchen have
been cold all day. The basement's fine, well, 17C - where me and the
computer live.

Apart from ask the installer, which is not an option, any ideas please?

Thanks, Rob


on or more of...

1/. System full of air still

2/. System running completely unbalanced with lounge hogging all the flow.

3/. Something so idiotic it hasn't even occurred to me yet.

On 04/02/2012 19:10, Rob wrote:
We're having problems trying to figure out how the CH works with a newly
installed system - Vaillant combi, Vaillant room stat (in the lounge),
and an Altech controller fitted next to the boiler:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room, kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously, there's no
water heating.

The third zone, lounge and bathroom, is controlled by the room stat. All
rooms have radiator thermostats except the lounge.

Now, this is all well and good and probably very clever, but the
radiators seem to have a will of their own. All zones are on constant
with stat valves fully open. The lounge is fine, always has been, and
temperature modulates in line with the room stat. But the other zones
vary between no heat, and luke warm as if providing background. Then,
occasionally, they'll belt out heat. The dining room and kitchen have
been cold all day. The basement's fine, well, 17C - where me and the
computer live.

Apart from ask the installer, which is not an option, any ideas please?

Thanks, Rob

1 check if each motorised valve is operated when the relevant thermostat
is demanding heat.

2 Each valve has a switch which closes when the valve is open/on. Check
these are wired together in parallel and effectively be the room-stat
switch in a conventional single room-stat system.


Personally I would have thrown away the programmer/controller, if that
is what the Altec controller is, and used 3 programmable room-stats to
give independent timings.

On 04/02/2012 19:24, Fredxx wrote:
1 check if each motorised valve is operated when the relevant
thermostat is demanding heat.

2 Each valve has a switch which closes when the valve is open/on.
Check these are wired together in parallel and effectively be the
room-stat switch in a conventional single room-stat system.


Personally I would have thrown away the programmer/controller, if that
is what the Altec controller is, and used 3 programmable room-stats to
give independent timings.


+1, ideally you would have time and temperature control of each zone.


--
David

On 04/02/2012 20:43, gremlin_95 wrote:
On 04/02/2012 19:24, Fredxx wrote:
1 check if each motorised valve is operated when the relevant
thermostat is demanding heat.

2 Each valve has a switch which closes when the valve is open/on.
Check these are wired together in parallel and effectively be the
room-stat switch in a conventional single room-stat system.


Personally I would have thrown away the programmer/controller, if that
is what the Altec controller is, and used 3 programmable room-stats to
give independent timings.


+1, ideally you would have time and temperature control of each zone.


This may come into it others will know for sure, but if the controller
that switches it on and off is sited wrongly it could be registering a
high temp at that location before the other rads heat up properly so
switching off prematurely.
So that room is nice and warm and the others havent had time to heat up.

Rob wrote:

We're having problems trying to figure out how the CH works with a newly
installed system - Vaillant combi, Vaillant room stat (in the lounge),
and an Altech controller fitted next to the boiler:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room, kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously, there's no
water heating.

More info needed.
How many controlled valves have you got?
I presume this is an 'S plan plus' where the valves have only an in and
out, rather than a 3 way fitting?
If so, then you should have 3 valves.

As has been said, a programmable stat for each of the zones would have
been better, there is no need for a on/off programmer then (you can
leave the heating turned on all the time, but it will only come on when
the room stats call for heat).

TRVs are doing the controlling of the 2 zones, and that is not the best
of ways to control the zone, and will use far more gas then if a room
stat was used.

I dont know that programmer, but it looks to me like it is a 2 channel
programmer, it can be used to control the heating only, but it is not
efficient without the use of room stats for the 3 zones.

Where are you?

Alan.



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On 04/02/2012 21:28, A.Lee wrote:
wrote:

We're having problems trying to figure out how the CH works with a newly
installed system - Vaillant combi, Vaillant room stat (in the lounge),
and an Altech controller fitted next to the boiler:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room, kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously, there's no
water heating.

More info needed.
How many controlled valves have you got?

I think two. I've put some more pics at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

I presume this is an 'S plan plus' where the valves have only an in and
out, rather than a 3 way fitting?

Afraid I don't know. The system was installed by a family member, I
gather. *Looks* very neat and impressive to me. Just can't get it to work!

If so, then you should have 3 valves.


I can only see two from the pics.

As has been said, a programmable stat for each of the zones would have
been better, there is no need for a on/off programmer then (you can
leave the heating turned on all the time, but it will only come on when
the room stats call for heat).


We might look into that.

TRVs are doing the controlling of the 2 zones, and that is not the best
of ways to control the zone, and will use far more gas then if a room
stat was used.


Well, at the moment the kitchen and dining room are using no gas ;-)

I dont know that programmer, but it looks to me like it is a 2 channel
programmer, it can be used to control the heating only, but it is not
efficient without the use of room stats for the 3 zones.


Frankly, we would use one zone, TRVs and one stat that operates as an
on/off.

Where are you?


Bakewell, Derbyshire.

Thanks for replies. May have to get a plumber in, or the original
installer after all. I've pored over it and it doesn't make any sense.
But as i say, the lounge is warm as toast, and we have intermittent heat
to the basement and bathroom, so not exactly slumming it.

Rob

Rob

Rob wrote:

On 04/02/2012 21:28, A.Lee wrote:
wrote:

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room, kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously, there's no
water heating.

More info needed.
How many controlled valves have you got?

I think two. I've put some more pics at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

Yes, it is an 'S plan plus'. You have 3 zones, but only 2 are
controlled, the other is on whenever the boiler heating is on.

They cannot be controlled properly without room stats for each of the 2
valves.
Also, you really want another valve and stat fitting for the
uncontrolled heating, as the boiler is going to be on all the time for
that zone, with only the TRVs, I presume, controlling it.

It is a poor install, which could be a lot better, as you have little
control over which zone is on/off, and temperature in those zones. This
is costing you money, as, say like today, your heating is on full
downstairs, but you dont really need the bedrooms to be toasty, as
you'll be dwnstairs most of the day, so, you'd have the bedrooms set at
14 degrees, and the downstairs at around 20 degrees. With your current
set-up,the boiler will be on keeping upstairs warm, which is a waste of
gas. Even if the TRVs are turned off, the boiler will still fire up, and
keep burning until the return water temperature reaches a set level, so
you can see it is very inefficient.

He likes his earth bonding between the pipes doesnt he? There is no need
for that, as both the water and gas pipes should be connected to earth
anyway.

Alan.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On 05/02/2012 13:05, A.Lee wrote:
wrote:

On 04/02/2012 21:28, A.Lee wrote:
wrote:

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room, kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously, there's no
water heating.

More info needed.
How many controlled valves have you got?

I think two. I've put some more pics at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

Yes, it is an 'S plan plus'. You have 3 zones, but only 2 are
controlled, the other is on whenever the boiler heating is on.


Ah thanks, good to know how to describe it.

They cannot be controlled properly without room stats for each of the 2
valves.

Noted, thanks.

Also, you really want another valve and stat fitting for the
uncontrolled heating, as the boiler is going to be on all the time for
that zone, with only the TRVs, I presume, controlling it.


That's a slightly odd thing. No TRVs, just the wireless wall mounted
room stat in the lounge. And I don't want to go messing with the rad
valves just in case I upset anything. So whenever the lounge gets up to
temperature, the other room (bathroom, which does have a TRV set at max
but seldom gets warm) goes off.

It is a poor install, which could be a lot better, as you have little
control over which zone is on/off, and temperature in those zones.

I'd like to have thought those two zones would be controlled by the
TRVs. But even when set to on/constant the heat is entirely unpredictable.

This is costing you money, as, say like today, your heating is on full
downstairs, but you dont really need the bedrooms to be toasty, as
you'll be dwnstairs most of the day, so, you'd have the bedrooms set at
14 degrees, and the downstairs at around 20 degrees. With your current
set-up,the boiler will be on keeping upstairs warm, which is a waste of
gas.

We can switch the bedroom zones off until needed I suppose.

Even if the TRVs are turned off, the boiler will still fire up, and
keep burning until the return water temperature reaches a set level, so
you can see it is very inefficient.


Yes, I can see that. We'll get it given the once over and fit room stats.

Thanks for your help, Rob

Rob wrote:
On 05/02/2012 13:05, A.Lee wrote:
wrote:

On 04/02/2012 21:28, A.Lee wrote:
wrote:

The controller was wired up to operate two of the 3 zones - brown
sticker - bedrooms, and silver sticker - basement, dining room,
kitchen
and hall. This was custom wired by the installer - obviously,
there's no
water heating.

More info needed.
How many controlled valves have you got?

I think two. I've put some more pics at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4771747...7629173085635/

Yes, it is an 'S plan plus'. You have 3 zones, but only 2 are
controlled, the other is on whenever the boiler heating is on.


Ah thanks, good to know how to describe it.

They cannot be controlled properly without room stats for each of the 2
valves.

Noted, thanks.

Also, you really want another valve and stat fitting for the
uncontrolled heating, as the boiler is going to be on all the time for
that zone, with only the TRVs, I presume, controlling it.


That's a slightly odd thing. No TRVs, just the wireless wall mounted
room stat in the lounge. And I don't want to go messing with the rad
valves just in case I upset anything. So whenever the lounge gets up to
temperature, the other room (bathroom, which does have a TRV set at max
but seldom gets warm) goes off.

then throttle the lounge rads back. So the bathroom is red hot before
the stat kicks in.

Are all the motorised valve switches wired in parallel so that any one
of them can 'call for heat?'




It is a poor install, which could be a lot better, as you have little
control over which zone is on/off, and temperature in those zones.

I'd like to have thought those two zones would be controlled by the
TRVs. But even when set to on/constant the heat is entirely unpredictable.


that's because the lounge system is controlling when the boiler is on I
suspect.


This is costing you money, as, say like today, your heating is on full
downstairs, but you dont really need the bedrooms to be toasty, as
you'll be dwnstairs most of the day, so, you'd have the bedrooms set at
14 degrees, and the downstairs at around 20 degrees. With your current
set-up,the boiler will be on keeping upstairs warm, which is a waste of
gas.

We can switch the bedroom zones off until needed I suppose.

Even if the TRVs are turned off, the boiler will still fire up, and
keep burning until the return water temperature reaches a set level, so
you can see it is very inefficient.


Yes, I can see that. We'll get it given the once over and fit room stats.

Thanks for your help, Rob

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 13:05:11 +0000, A.Lee wrote:

He likes his earth bonding between the pipes doesnt he? There is no need
for that, as both the water and gas pipes should be connected to earth
anyway.

Fairly normal to bond across all the pipes as they leave the boiler.
you don't know that there is electrical connection within the boiler.
Mind you some of the heating plumbing turns to plastic after the
valves. If there is copper elsewhere that might be floating...

I agree that the best improvement would be programmable stats for
each zone each controlling the appropiate zone valve and the aux
contacts from the valves controlling the boiler.

Gotchas:

Boiler may require pump run on after being told to switch off. If so
there needs to be an automatic bypass valve across the boiler output
to enable water to flow through the heat exchanger when all the zone
valves are closed.

The radiator in the same room as the stat, for each zone, should not
have a TRV. So that the radiator warms the room until the stat is
satisfied, a TRV could shut the rad down before the stat is satisfied
thus the boler stays running and the rest of the zone roasts. If
those rads have TRVs at some point they will shutdown and then there
is no circulation through the boiler but it's still on...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 05/02/2012 13:57, Rob wrote:


That's a slightly odd thing. No TRVs, just the wireless wall mounted
room stat in the lounge. And I don't want to go messing with the rad
valves just in case I upset anything. So whenever the lounge gets up to
temperature, the other room (bathroom, which does have a TRV set at max
but seldom gets warm) goes off.


It looks to me as if the wireless stat in the lounge is the *only* thing
that's controlling when the boiler fires. Is the receiver for that
*inside* the boiler casing? [I notice that there's an indication of
signal strength on the front of the boiler - presumably for the wireless
stat?]

My guess is that, even though you've got some of the components of an
S-Plan system, it isn't *actually* an S-Plan. I reckon that the two
channel programmer simply opens the valves *without* the auxiliary
switches in the valves being wired up to make the boiler fire. You'd
have to check the wiring to be sure. If I'm right, the two 'controlled'
zones will only get hot when the timer has opened their valves *and* the
wireless stat in the lounge is calling for heat. So, if the lounge
demand is satisfied, the other zones won't get hot whatever their timer
is doing!

As others have said, in order to do a proper job you need a zone valve
in each of the 3 zones, which each one being controlled by a
programmable stat located in the respective zone, and with the auxiliary
switches in the valves wired in parallel to create a boiler firing
demand. You may possibly be able to use the existing wireless stat if
it's programmable and not just a bare stat and if it can be made to
control a zone valve rather than controlling the boiler directly.

It's a relatively simple job to convert it into a decent system, but
whoever does it will need to have their wits about them when working out
how it's currently wired in order to correct it. Insertion of a third
zone valve will, of course, involve a partial drain down - unless you
can easily isolate the pipe into which it is to be inserted. (I note
that you have a fair few gate valves, so you may be able to do it
without too much loss of water).
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Roger Mills wrote:
On 05/02/2012 13:57, Rob wrote:


That's a slightly odd thing. No TRVs, just the wireless wall mounted
room stat in the lounge. And I don't want to go messing with the rad
valves just in case I upset anything. So whenever the lounge gets up to
temperature, the other room (bathroom, which does have a TRV set at max
but seldom gets warm) goes off.


It looks to me as if the wireless stat in the lounge is the *only* thing
that's controlling when the boiler fires. Is the receiver for that
*inside* the boiler casing? [I notice that there's an indication of
signal strength on the front of the boiler - presumably for the wireless
stat?]

My guess is that, even though you've got some of the components of an
S-Plan system, it isn't *actually* an S-Plan. I reckon that the two
channel programmer simply opens the valves *without* the auxiliary
switches in the valves being wired up to make the boiler fire. You'd
have to check the wiring to be sure. If I'm right, the two 'controlled'
zones will only get hot when the timer has opened their valves *and* the
wireless stat in the lounge is calling for heat. So, if the lounge
demand is satisfied, the other zones won't get hot whatever their timer
is doing!

As others have said, in order to do a proper job you need a zone valve
in each of the 3 zones, which each one being controlled by a
programmable stat located in the respective zone,

Not necessarily.

I have an unstatted zone upstairs with fan blown statted heaters
everywhere and the bathroom rads on TRV's

It isn't the most efficient way to do it but I never found a decent
place to put a (single) master stat!