My house uses an electric immersion heater (copper Fortic tank).

I had the temperature set so that it was exactly right for shower purposes.

I took a shower the other day, and the water seemed a little hotter than it
should have been - only by a few degrees. I could have been mistaken...

Today, the heater is not heating the water at all. Actually, the water
comes out tepid, but that may be residual heat from when it was working, a
couple of days ago.

As the cirquit breaker in the consumer unit has not flipped, so I am
assuming the fault is either the immersion heater element or the
thermostat. Both were brand new in August 2010 (i.e., 17 months ago,
purchased from B.E.S.). Is it usual for one of these items to fail so
quickly? I only use the immersion heater about 1 hour every coupe of weeks,
as I often take my shower elsewhere.

How do I determine which item has failed? I have a multi-meter available.

Many thanks...

Al

In article ,
"AL_n" writes:

My house uses an electric immersion heater (copper Fortic tank).

I had the temperature set so that it was exactly right for shower purposes.

I took a shower the other day, and the water seemed a little hotter than it
should have been - only by a few degrees. I could have been mistaken...

Today, the heater is not heating the water at all. Actually, the water
comes out tepid, but that may be residual heat from when it was working, a
couple of days ago.

As the cirquit breaker in the consumer unit has not flipped, so I am
assuming the fault is either the immersion heater element or the
thermostat. Both were brand new in August 2010 (i.e., 17 months ago,
purchased from B.E.S.). Is it usual for one of these items to fail so
quickly? I only use the immersion heater about 1 hour every coupe of weeks,
as I often take my shower elsewhere.

How do I determine which item has failed? I have a multi-meter available.

As it's fairly new, there should be two thermostats,
1 The one you adjust to set the temperature, and
2 a non-adjustable one as a backup to trip off if the first one
fails and the tank is getting near boiling.

The second one is not self resetting, and might have a manual
reset button on it. If it has tripped, the adjustable stat has
probably failed and needs replacing.

With the power completely disconnected, you need to use the meter
to test continuity (resistance) of the heating element, and of the
two thermostats, and see which one is open circuit.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

(Andrew Gabriel) wrote in
:

As it's fairly new, there should be two thermostats,
1 The one you adjust to set the temperature, and
2 a non-adjustable one as a backup to trip off if the first one
fails and the tank is getting near boiling.

The second one is not self resetting, and might have a manual
reset button on it. If it has tripped, the adjustable stat has
probably failed and needs replacing.

With the power completely disconnected, you need to use the meter
to test continuity (resistance) of the heating element, and of the
two thermostats, and see which one is open circuit.



Thank you very much for the first class help.
This is just what I needed to know... I can't remember seeing any sign of a
second thermostat, but I will crawl into the loft later and have a closer
look.

Al

AL_n wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote in
:

As it's fairly new, there should be two thermostats,
1 The one you adjust to set the temperature, and
2 a non-adjustable one as a backup to trip off if the first one
fails and the tank is getting near boiling.

The second one is not self resetting, and might have a manual
reset button on it. If it has tripped, the adjustable stat has
probably failed and needs replacing.

With the power completely disconnected, you need to use the meter
to test continuity (resistance) of the heating element, and of the
two thermostats, and see which one is open circuit.



Thank you very much for the first class help.
This is just what I needed to know... I can't remember seeing any sign of a
second thermostat, but I will crawl into the loft later and have a closer
look.

Al

The two thermostats are combined and have been mandatory for the last
few years. the safety one if fitted has a reset button.
Measure resistance of the element to make sure it is intact.
Measure resistance across the stat which should be closed being below
target temperature.

If it is open circuit, and has a reset button, press it and see if is
becomes closed circuit. If so apply power and the water should heat.

Otherwise the above measurements will tell you which item is at fault

New stats can be purchased in isolation but usually a new element will
come with a new stat included.
If you are replacing the element, then an incaloy one will cost a little
more but will last a lot longer especially if your water is at all hard.


Bob

Bob Minchin wrote in
:

The two thermostats are combined and have been mandatory for the last
few years. the safety one if fitted has a reset button.
Measure resistance of the element to make sure it is intact.
Measure resistance across the stat which should be closed being below
target temperature.

If it is open circuit, and has a reset button, press it and see if is
becomes closed circuit. If so apply power and the water should heat.

Otherwise the above measurements will tell you which item is at fault

New stats can be purchased in isolation but usually a new element will
come with a new stat included.
If you are replacing the element, then an incaloy one will cost a
little more but will last a lot longer especially if your water is at
all hard.


Bob


Your help is much appreciated - thank you!

Al

Bob Minchin wrote in
:

AL_n wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote in
:

As it's fairly new, there should be two thermostats,
1 The one you adjust to set the temperature, and
2 a non-adjustable one as a backup to trip off if the first one
fails and the tank is getting near boiling.

The second one is not self resetting, and might have a manual
reset button on it. If it has tripped, the adjustable stat has
probably failed and needs replacing.

With the power completely disconnected, you need to use the meter
to test continuity (resistance) of the heating element, and of the
two thermostats, and see which one is open circuit.



Thank you very much for the first class help.
This is just what I needed to know... I can't remember seeing any
sign of a second thermostat, but I will crawl into the loft later and
have a closer look.

Al

The two thermostats are combined and have been mandatory for the last
few years. the safety one if fitted has a reset button.
Measure resistance of the element to make sure it is intact.
Measure resistance across the stat which should be closed being below
target temperature.

If it is open circuit, and has a reset button, press it and see if is
becomes closed circuit. If so apply power and the water should heat.

Otherwise the above measurements will tell you which item is at fault

New stats can be purchased in isolation but usually a new element will
come with a new stat included.
If you are replacing the element, then an incaloy one will cost a
little more but will last a lot longer especially if your water is at
all hard.


Bob


OK, I have done the tests. (And please bear in mind, I am not an
electrician.)

The heater element itself has a resistance of 20.1 (I had my multimeter
set on the 200 ohm setting).

Testing across the thermostat, reveals open circuit (no reading on ohm
meter)

The reset button does not depress. It is almost flush with the face of
the thermostat casing. I guess this means it has not popped out.

Now here's the strange thing: None of the circuit breakers in the CU have
flipped. However, when I switch the immersion heater switch to "ON", my
volt meter reads .03v, when I have the red prong touching the red cable
and the black prong touching the black cable (coming out of the 3-core
cable, at the immersion heater).

I wondered if there was a loose screw in the switch... I unscrewed the
cover of the switch. All the screws on the switch are tight.
Volt meter confirms 240v across the red and black, going into the switch.
When switch is in the ON position, volt meter confirms 240v at the other
side of the switch.

To me, this suggests that the cable rinning from the switch to the
immersion heater is at fault. However, it is a really thick pice of 3-
core flex. I mean, each core is about 3mm thick. It's thicker than the
cable going from the CU to the switch. No-one has been up in the loft, so
it has not been subject to any possible human interference.

This seems very strange to me. Is it really concievable that the cable is
what's at fault here? It has worked fine for about 20 years, AFAIK.

Thanks..

Al

On Jan 18, 12:24*pm, "AL_n" wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote :









AL_n wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote in
:

As it's fairly new, there should be two thermostats,
1 The one you adjust to set the temperature, and
2 a non-adjustable one as a backup to trip off if the first one
* *fails and the tank is getting near boiling.

The second one is not self resetting, and might have a manual
reset button on it. If it has tripped, the adjustable stat has
probably failed and needs replacing.

With the power completely disconnected, you need to use the meter
to test continuity (resistance) of the heating element, and of the
two thermostats, and see which one is open circuit.

Thank you very much for the first class help.
This is just what I needed to know... I can't remember seeing any
sign of a second thermostat, but I will crawl into the loft later and
have a closer look.

Al

The two thermostats are combined and have been mandatory for the last
few years. the safety one if fitted has a reset button.
Measure resistance of the element to make sure it is intact.
Measure resistance across the stat which should be closed being below
target temperature.

If it is open circuit, and has a reset button, press it and see if is
becomes closed circuit. If so apply power and the water should heat.

Otherwise the above measurements will tell you which item is at fault

New stats can be purchased in isolation but usually a new element will
come with a new stat *included.
If you are replacing the element, then an incaloy one will cost a
little more but will last a lot longer especially if your water is at
all hard.

Bob

OK, I have done the tests. (And please bear in mind, I am not an
electrician.)

The heater element itself has a resistance of 20.1 (I had my multimeter
set on the 200 ohm setting).

Testing across the thermostat, reveals open circuit (no reading on ohm
meter)

The reset button does not depress. It is almost flush with the face of
the thermostat casing. I guess this means it has not popped out.

Now here's the strange thing: None of the circuit breakers in the CU have
flipped. However, when I switch the immersion heater switch to "ON", my
volt meter reads .03v, when I have the red prong touching the red cable
and the black prong touching the black cable (coming out of the 3-core
cable, at the immersion heater).

I wondered if there was a loose screw in the switch... I unscrewed the
cover of the switch. All the screws on the switch are tight.
Volt meter confirms 240v across the red and black, going into the switch.
When switch is in the ON position, volt meter confirms 240v at the other
side of the switch.

To me, this suggests that the cable rinning from the switch to the
immersion heater is at fault. However, it is a really thick pice of 3-
core flex. I mean, each core is about 3mm thick. It's thicker than the
cable going from the CU to the switch. No-one has been up in the loft, so
it has not been subject to any possible human interference.

This seems very strange to me. Is it really concievable that the cable is
what's at fault here? It has worked fine for about 20 years, AFAIK.

Thanks..

Al

Disconnect the cable completely and check each core for continuity.

MBQ

"Man at B&Q" wrote in
:

This seems very strange to me. Is it really concievable that the
cable is what's at fault here? It has worked fine for about 20 years,
AFAIK.

Thanks..

Al

Disconnect the cable completely and check each core for continuity.

MBQ


Thanks... I have just done that, and now I find that there IS 240v at the
heater end of the cable. I guess my meter prong was not making contact with
metal, before.

So what is the prognosis now then?

Al

"Man at B&Q" wrote in
:

This seems very strange to me. Is it really concievable that the
cable is what's at fault here? It has worked fine for about 20 years,
AFAIK.

Thanks..

Al

Disconnect the cable completely and check each core for continuity.

MBQ


Thanks. I just did this, and now find there IS 24v at the heater end of the
cable, testing across the red and black wires at the unconnected end of the
cable.

Al

"Man at B&Q" wrote in
:

Is it really concievable that the
cable is what's at fault here? It has worked fine for about 20 years,
AFAIK.

Thanks..

Al

Disconnect the cable completely and check each core for continuity.

MBQ


OK - I have done this, and now find that I DO have 240v at the heater end
of the cable, (measuring across the red and black wires). I guess my MM
prongs were not making contact with metal previously.

So what is the prognosis now?

Thanks,

Al

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jan 18, 12:24 pm, "AL_n" wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote :









AL_n wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote in
:
As it's fairly new, there should be two thermostats,
1 The one you adjust to set the temperature, and
2 a non-adjustable one as a backup to trip off if the first one
fails and the tank is getting near boiling.
The second one is not self resetting, and might have a manual
reset button on it. If it has tripped, the adjustable stat has
probably failed and needs replacing.
With the power completely disconnected, you need to use the meter
to test continuity (resistance) of the heating element, and of the
two thermostats, and see which one is open circuit.
Thank you very much for the first class help.
This is just what I needed to know... I can't remember seeing any
sign of a second thermostat, but I will crawl into the loft later and
have a closer look.
Al
The two thermostats are combined and have been mandatory for the last
few years. the safety one if fitted has a reset button.
Measure resistance of the element to make sure it is intact.
Measure resistance across the stat which should be closed being below
target temperature.
If it is open circuit, and has a reset button, press it and see if is
becomes closed circuit. If so apply power and the water should heat.
Otherwise the above measurements will tell you which item is at fault
New stats can be purchased in isolation but usually a new element will
come with a new stat included.
If you are replacing the element, then an incaloy one will cost a
little more but will last a lot longer especially if your water is at
all hard.
Bob
OK, I have done the tests. (And please bear in mind, I am not an
electrician.)

The heater element itself has a resistance of 20.1 (I had my multimeter
set on the 200 ohm setting).

Testing across the thermostat, reveals open circuit (no reading on ohm
meter)

The reset button does not depress. It is almost flush with the face of
the thermostat casing. I guess this means it has not popped out.

Now here's the strange thing: None of the circuit breakers in the CU have
flipped. However, when I switch the immersion heater switch to "ON", my
volt meter reads .03v, when I have the red prong touching the red cable
and the black prong touching the black cable (coming out of the 3-core
cable, at the immersion heater).

I wondered if there was a loose screw in the switch... I unscrewed the
cover of the switch. All the screws on the switch are tight.
Volt meter confirms 240v across the red and black, going into the switch.
When switch is in the ON position, volt meter confirms 240v at the other
side of the switch.

To me, this suggests that the cable rinning from the switch to the
immersion heater is at fault. However, it is a really thick pice of 3-
core flex. I mean, each core is about 3mm thick. It's thicker than the
cable going from the CU to the switch. No-one has been up in the loft, so
it has not been subject to any possible human interference.

This seems very strange to me. Is it really concievable that the cable is
what's at fault here? It has worked fine for about 20 years, AFAIK.

Thanks..

Al

Disconnect the cable completely and check each core for continuity.

MBQ
+1.

The number of times things have gone wrong in my definite personal
experience where it has been so weird that its almost not true are many
and various.

- a perfectly good motor armature with no sign of any distress that
suddenly developed a 3k short to earth.
- a temperature sensor in the car that was completely within spec at
room temperature, but failed to change whatsoever when immersed in hot
water.
- a clamp diode in a 16 year old car wiring loom that failed dead short
for no reason whatsoever.
- a power transistor in a prototype that failed with a base emitter
short after being run up to full power just once. I have never seen a
base emitter short before or since. So intrigued was I that I hacksawed
the case off the top and discovered the bonding wires had been welded to
the chip such that there was a micron gap between the base wire and the
emitter pad. Heating had closed the gap and then it had microwelded over.
- a unit returned at huge expense from scotland as DOA. Fault traced to
a polystyrene capacitor that had melted during assembly, and then the
transit shocks had caused it to complete the circuit. The boss had saved
almost £30 on these substandard rubbish components. The extra shipping
of the unit cost over £120 in all.
- a Philips FM tuner head that hummed and was noisy. All 150 of them.
Local oscillator was stabilised by a zener with no further smoothing.
Zeners are perfect noise sources. It featured a ferrite slug coil as
well. Ferrite slugs change their reluctance in a hum field...which is
why TOKO used a huge low pass filtered constant voltage sourec and brass
slugs or aluminium slugs, for hifi use...
- a piece of software that mysteriously developed bugs when used in a
computer with a video capture card in it. Finally traced to the fact
that the DMA transfer to move the program onto the hard disk at some
point used the lower 8 bits of the address that corresponded to the
video card, just before the IO request line went yes to call the next
block of the DMA controller. The ****ty decode on the video card stayed
active JUST long enough to ensure that for two bytes of the transfer FFH
was on the bus. Result? A program with two HEX FF bytes in an arbitrary
place..
- a lotus Elan that mysteriously lost all power after being turned round
in a country road..exhaust pipes full of mud from reversing into a bank.
- an 8088 ICE that simply refused to play nice. Especially in the
afternoon. Until I read the spec 'temperature limnits -5C to +27C ..the
cellar we were required to work in was going up to 29C. Well we finally
got airconditioning in after that, that we humans nhad been demanding
for 4 months....
- A digger takes out an entire duct up the M1 through which ALL the
'diversely routed' fibres run from EVERY supplier of dark and light
fibre. England as far as the internet is concerned, is cut exactly in
half, and all traffic between the halves is going to the USA, to
Holland, and then to Southern UK. Congestion destroys the links
operationally (if not physically)


No one remembers the hundreds of simple faults that were 'what you might
expect' just the ones that were total black swans, that you simply
didn't see coming...how COULD Philips make two basic stupid faults in a
tuner design? How COULD someone weld a connector 2mm off true and it get
past inspection? How COULD someone design a peripheral and use a chain
of 8 cascaded gates to decode the address and NOT know that the
cumulative propagation delay would be miles out of spec?


How CAN an 'undamaged' piece of cable nevertheless have a break in the
middle? Easy. manufacturing defect, and creeping corrosion.

How many copper pipes just leak in the middle of a perfectly straight
section after several years of service?

Hell, I was talking to someone last year who was an engineer responsible
for nuclear sfety. A routine inspection of a reactor found a nut had
come off a bolt inside te pressure housing. Shut down and a robot fished
the nut out. Oh dear. It's turned to putty. Neutron bombardment. What
about the bolts. They are fine, because THEY were tightly specified with
the right materials to take the neutron flux, but the nuts were NOT????
Or did some thick **** say 'bugger we've run out of special nuts, sod it
how important can it be?' and just banged on a mild steel one they had
lying around. Well it apparently kept that reactor offline for 6 months
while they removed all the nuts and replaced them using robots.

The capacity for things to go round in ingenious and creative ways
easily exceeds our ability to second guess them so doing. If we ASK the
question, what if? ..' then the answer can easily be seen to be 'we will
see a failure' BUT the problem is that no one ever DID ask..

I merely say this to say that no matter how unlikely something seems,
the likelihood of SOMETHING unlikely happening is actually quite high.
Not any GIVEN thing, but some random unlikely event, like a 30 meter
tsunami off the north coast of Japan...or a piece of seemingly fine
cable that simply doesn't have end to end connectivity. In fact I threw
away a 50 meter extension lead with EXACTLY that fault. I assume it got
stretched and somewhere inside the some copper strands snapped, and then
the rest burnt out.

The Natural Philosopher wrote in news:jf6i8i$g8s$1
@news.albasani.net:


How CAN an 'undamaged' piece of cable nevertheless have a break in the
middle? Easy. manufacturing defect, and creeping corrosion.

True. I now find that I only *sometimes* get a 240v reading at the
disconnected end of the cable. I am going to connect my meter to the cable-
ends using a chocolate block and then move the cable around to see if
positioning affects it. If so, I guess that means a break in one of the
wires...

Al

AL_n wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote in news:jf6i8i$g8s$1
@news.albasani.net:

How CAN an 'undamaged' piece of cable nevertheless have a break in the
middle? Easy. manufacturing defect, and creeping corrosion.

True. I now find that I only *sometimes* get a 240v reading at the
disconnected end of the cable. I am going to connect my meter to the cable-
ends using a chocolate block and then move the cable around to see if
positioning affects it. If so, I guess that means a break in one of the
wires...

It's not worth faffing about. Just replace the cable. Even if you find
that cutting a few inches off one end of the old one solves the problem,
it'll cost you less in time and money.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Jan 18, 1:21*pm, "AL_n" wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote :

Is it really concievable that the
cable is what's at fault here? It has worked fine for about 20 years,
AFAIK.

Thanks..

Al

Disconnect the cable completely and check each core for continuity.

MBQ

OK - I have done this, and now find that I DO have 240v at the heater end
of the cable, (measuring across the red and black wires). I guess my MM
prongs were not making contact with metal previously.

So what is the prognosis now?

You need to be more patient with your newsreader.

MBQ

John Williamson wrote in
:

It's not worth faffing about. Just replace the cable. Even if you find
that cutting a few inches off one end of the old one solves the problem,
it'll cost you less in time and money.


I have just solved it!

The immersion heter switch is a double switch. The left switch is named
"bath" and the right switch is named "sink".

Well, the sink side has never worked. The cable going from that switch ends
in a chocolate block, heavily wrapped in insulation tape. It was like that
when I bought the house, 2 years ago.

Having discovered this, I have never used the sink heater switch. When I
take a shower, I switch the left switch (bath) on for an hour to warm the
water. Then I switch it off.

Last time I took a shower, however, aftyer heating the water, I
accidentally switched the "sink" side off, instead of the "bath" side.

What I did not know (until now), is that if the sink switch is off, it also
cuts power to the main (bath) heater element.

All I needed to do was flip the sink switch back to its original position
(ON) and everything is working again.

Is that normal for the sink switch to be wired so that it also cuts the
power to the main bath heater??

Al

"Man at B&Q" wrote in news:46f1ba0e-4afc-400e-
:

You need to be more patient with your newsreader.

What???

AL_n wrote:
John Williamson wrote in
:

It's not worth faffing about. Just replace the cable. Even if you find
that cutting a few inches off one end of the old one solves the problem,
it'll cost you less in time and money.


I have just solved it!

The immersion heter switch is a double switch. The left switch is named
"bath" and the right switch is named "sink".

Well, the sink side has never worked. The cable going from that switch ends
in a chocolate block, heavily wrapped in insulation tape. It was like that
when I bought the house, 2 years ago.

It would seem there was originally a double element immersion heater
fitted, which has been replaced by a single. It should also have been
re-wired properly, or replaced like for like, but this often isn't done.

If your immersion heater fails again, it's worth paying the extra for a
dual element one, as you'll only be heating half a tankful when needed,
which is plenty for a shower or to do the dishes. I also fit a
timeswitch as standard, so there's hot water ready in the morning. Just
press the boost button for anything in the evening.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson wrote in
:

Well, the sink side has never worked. The cable going from that
switch ends in a chocolate block, heavily wrapped in insulation tape.
It was like that when I bought the house, 2 years ago.

It would seem there was originally a double element immersion heater
fitted, which has been replaced by a single. It should also have been
re-wired properly, or replaced like for like, but this often isn't
done.

If your immersion heater fails again, it's worth paying the extra for
a dual element one, as you'll only be heating half a tankful when
needed, which is plenty for a shower or to do the dishes. I also fit a
timeswitch as standard, so there's hot water ready in the morning.
Just press the boost button for anything in the evening.



Thank you for the suggestions. I like the idea of not needing to heat the
whole tank, just to just take a shower.

It's possible that my existing tank has two elements. I did take the jacket
off once, and can;t remember seeing anything looking remotely like the main
element, sited further up the side of the tank, so you are probably right.

Yes, the timed swith would definitely be a good investment, (assuming they
are reliable), as I sometimes forget to turn the heater off.

Al

AL_n wrote:
Thank you for the suggestions. I like the idea of not needing to heat the
whole tank, just to just take a shower.

It's possible that my existing tank has two elements. I did take the jacket
off once, and can;t remember seeing anything looking remotely like the main
element, sited further up the side of the tank, so you are probably right.

There are two ways to do the job. One has two seperate elements, one
halfway up the tank, and one at the bottom, both fitted in the side of
the tank, the other way is a dual element which fits into a standard
fitting on the top of the tank, a long one which heats the whole tank,
and a short one which only goes halfway down.

Yes, the timed swith would definitely be a good investment, (assuming they
are reliable), as I sometimes forget to turn the heater off.

The LCD display ones I buy from Maplin last on average about five years.
I have the same problem as you in remembering to turn stuff off, and
they pay for themselves in less than a year. They have four on/off
settings available per day. The mechanical ones can be set in half hour
incements as often as you like, but I've found they only last a year or
so before the microswitch fails.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson wrote:
AL_n wrote:
John Williamson wrote in
:

It's not worth faffing about. Just replace the cable. Even if you
find that cutting a few inches off one end of the old one solves the
problem, it'll cost you less in time and money.


I have just solved it!
The immersion heter switch is a double switch. The left switch is
named "bath" and the right switch is named "sink".

Well, the sink side has never worked. The cable going from that switch
ends in a chocolate block, heavily wrapped in insulation tape. It was
like that when I bought the house, 2 years ago.

It would seem there was originally a double element immersion heater
fitted, which has been replaced by a single. It should also have been
re-wired properly, or replaced like for like, but this often isn't done.

If your immersion heater fails again, it's worth paying the extra for a
dual element one, as you'll only be heating half a tankful when needed,
which is plenty for a shower or to do the dishes. I also fit a
timeswitch as standard, so there's hot water ready in the morning. Just
press the boost button for anything in the evening.

I was unhappy about my wife's usage of hot water..until I calculated how
much it did cost to heat a tankful.

Not worth arguing over.

Not worth investing in either.

On Jan 18, 2:32*pm, "AL_n" wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in news:46f1ba0e-4afc-400e-
:

You need to be more patient with your newsreader.

What???

You posted basically the same message three times, but, given the
differences, it looks like you re-typed it each time. I assume you
thought it had not been posted.

MBQ

On 18 Jan 2012 14:29:22 GMT, "AL_n" wrote:

Is that normal for the sink switch to be wired so that it also cuts the
power to the main bath heater??

No. It's a changeover switch that simply routes to one or the other.
If you have a 3-core cable and a single immersion element, somebody's
changed out the original two-element immersion (with its 4-core cable)
and disabled/buggered about with the bath/sink switch - quite
unnecessarily, as all that needs to be done is to simply leave it
unconnected.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in news:a553079d-d9b4-4de0-
:

:

You need to be more patient with your newsreader.

What???

You posted basically the same message three times, but, given the
differences, it looks like you re-typed it each time. I assume you
thought it had not been posted.

MBQ


Oh, I see..

What happened was: I posted one and then realised I neded to revise, so I
immediately hit the "cancel message" option in my (Xnews) reader. I
received "message cancel request sent". After that, I could no longer
access the message so I assumed it was successfully canceled.

I then posted version 2 of the message.

Then I relised I'd made a typo so I repeated the whole operation again
(perhaps twice more).

Perhaps my messages didn't get canceled after all, since you seem to have
seen them.

Apologies for the confusion.

Al

wrote in :

On 18 Jan 2012 14:29:22 GMT, "AL_n" wrote:

Is that normal for the sink switch to be wired so that it also cuts the
power to the main bath heater??

No. It's a changeover switch that simply routes to one or the other.
If you have a 3-core cable and a single immersion element, somebody's
changed out the original two-element immersion (with its 4-core cable)
and disabled/buggered about with the bath/sink switch - quite
unnecessarily, as all that needs to be done is to simply leave it
unconnected.


Yes - I suspected there was some kind of irregular bodgery going on. I
think I'll replace the switch with a single one and remove the extra cable.

I'd like to find one with a very bright light on it (so I can't fail to see
if someone has left the heater on)!

Has anyone found one with a bright light (or at least, brighter than
average)?

Thanks...

Al

AL_n wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in news:a553079d-d9b4-4de0-
:

:

You need to be more patient with your newsreader.
What???
You posted basically the same message three times, but, given the
differences, it looks like you re-typed it each time. I assume you
thought it had not been posted.

MBQ


Oh, I see..

What happened was: I posted one and then realised I neded to revise, so I
immediately hit the "cancel message" option in my (Xnews) reader. I
received "message cancel request sent". After that, I could no longer
access the message so I assumed it was successfully canceled.

I then posted version 2 of the message.

Then I relised I'd made a typo so I repeated the whole operation again
(perhaps twice more).

Perhaps my messages didn't get canceled after all, since you seem to have
seen them.

Apologies for the confusion.

Just for future reference, while your news server may honour cancel
requests from you, many servers will not honour cancel requests from
outside their user base. Once the message leaves your server and is on
the peers, which can take less than a second, it is very unlikely that
any cancel request will work. This means that once it gets off your
system, it is then propagated throughout usenet as if the cancel request
had never been sent.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson wrote in news:9nqt9pFa0lU1
@mid.individual.net:

Just for future reference, while your news server may honour cancel
requests from you, many servers will not honour cancel requests from
outside their user base. Once the message leaves your server and is on
the peers, which can take less than a second, it is very unlikely that
any cancel request will work. This means that once it gets off your
system, it is then propagated throughout usenet as if the cancel request
had never been sent.


Thanks for the clarification. I will triple-check my posts prior to sending
from now on.

Al

John Williamson wrote in
:

AL_n wrote:
Thank you for the suggestions. I like the idea of not needing to heat
the whole tank, just to just take a shower.

It's possible that my existing tank has two elements. I did take the
jacket off once, and can;t remember seeing anything looking remotely
like the main element, sited further up the side of the tank, so you
are probably right.

There are two ways to do the job. One has two seperate elements, one
halfway up the tank, and one at the bottom, both fitted in the side of
the tank, the other way is a dual element which fits into a standard
fitting on the top of the tank, a long one which heats the whole tank,
and a short one which only goes halfway down.

Yes, the timed swith would definitely be a good investment, (assuming
they are reliable), as I sometimes forget to turn the heater off.

The LCD display ones I buy from Maplin last on average about five
years. I have the same problem as you in remembering to turn stuff
off, and they pay for themselves in less than a year. They have four
on/off settings available per day. The mechanical ones can be set in
half hour incements as often as you like, but I've found they only
last a year or so before the microswitch fails.


That's useful to know. Thanks. After reading your comment on the short
lifespan, I'm now looking for a switch that has a flashing light, or better
still, bleeps, occasionally while it's switched on, but I haven't found
anything yet...

Al

AL_n wrote:
John Williamson wrote in
:

AL_n wrote:
Thank you for the suggestions. I like the idea of not needing to heat
the whole tank, just to just take a shower.

It's possible that my existing tank has two elements. I did take the
jacket off once, and can;t remember seeing anything looking remotely
like the main element, sited further up the side of the tank, so you
are probably right.

There are two ways to do the job. One has two seperate elements, one
halfway up the tank, and one at the bottom, both fitted in the side of
the tank, the other way is a dual element which fits into a standard
fitting on the top of the tank, a long one which heats the whole tank,
and a short one which only goes halfway down.

Yes, the timed swith would definitely be a good investment, (assuming
they are reliable), as I sometimes forget to turn the heater off.

The LCD display ones I buy from Maplin last on average about five
years. I have the same problem as you in remembering to turn stuff
off, and they pay for themselves in less than a year. They have four
on/off settings available per day. The mechanical ones can be set in
half hour incements as often as you like, but I've found they only
last a year or so before the microswitch fails.


That's useful to know. Thanks. After reading your comment on the short
lifespan, I'm now looking for a switch that has a flashing light, or better
still, bleeps, occasionally while it's switched on, but I haven't found
anything yet...

Al
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SMTGBT4.html

I'm not sure how long lasting these are, but, like the Maplin stuff, the
guarantee's for three years, and it takes me about ten minutes to change
a unit like this. Or you can get kits to make LED based flashing lights
that work off 240V, and put one in a box where you can see it easily,
wired in parallel with the immersion heater.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 19 Jan 2012 18:54:09 GMT, "AL_n" wrote:

The LCD display ones I buy from Maplin last on average about five
years. I have the same problem as you in remembering to turn stuff
off, and they pay for themselves in less than a year. They have four
on/off settings available per day. The mechanical ones can be set in
half hour incements as often as you like, but I've found they only
last a year or so before the microswitch fails.


That's useful to know. Thanks. After reading your comment on the short
lifespan, I'm now looking for a switch that has a flashing light, or better
still, bleeps, occasionally while it's switched on, but I haven't found
anything yet...

For reliability - I recommend the ART timers - mechanical, but las for
a decade.

writes:


For reliability - I recommend the ART timers - mechanical, but las for
a decade.

But AFAIK all mechanical timers fail (in the sense that until reset
they no longer turn on at the correct time) after a power cut.

--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

In article ,
Windmill wrote:
writes:


For reliability - I recommend the ART timers - mechanical, but las for
a decade.

But AFAIK all mechanical timers fail (in the sense that until reset
they no longer turn on at the correct time) after a power cut.

I've met some with battery back-up - but that was a long time ago.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

charles wrote:
In article ,
Windmill wrote:
writes:


For reliability - I recommend the ART timers - mechanical, but las for
a decade.

But AFAIK all mechanical timers fail (in the sense that until reset
they no longer turn on at the correct time) after a power cut.

I've met some with battery back-up - but that was a long time ago.

All the ones with LCD displays have battery backup. That's what causes
them to fail after five years, as often as not.

To go back upthread a bit, I wonder how long the OP or others would
expect an item like this to last?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 01:40:52 +0000, wrote:

For reliability - I recommend the ART timers - mechanical, but las for
a decade.

For ART, read APT
http://tinyurl.com/apt-immersion-timer