On 30/12/2011 11:58, Bob Minchin wrote:
Next years paper round-2-it design project for me is going to be
installing a thermal store/heatbank with a solar collector on the roof
and mains pressure hot water for the house.

I would very much like to be able to swap notes and generally get
experience from anyone who has gone down this path already.
Of particular interest are the makers/suppliers of components for DIY
installs and the choice of control systems.
Most of my web searches seem to lead to Gledhill products as a market
leader but they don't seem to offer systems with plate heat exchangers
which I read are preferred in hard water areas like mine.

Anyone been this way before?

I spoke to the heatweb folks about their Pandora system a couple of
years back. That would do all the things that you want. A bit pricey at
about £1,600 at the time for a 250L store, PHE, blending valve etc.

There is a design for a DIY one he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=DIY_Heat_Bank

One of the difficulties is finding a large enough cylinder to use it
with, without having to buy a unvented one!


--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm wrote:
On 30/12/2011 11:58, Bob Minchin wrote:
Next years paper round-2-it design project for me is going to be
installing a thermal store/heatbank with a solar collector on the roof
and mains pressure hot water for the house.

I would very much like to be able to swap notes and generally get
experience from anyone who has gone down this path already.
Of particular interest are the makers/suppliers of components for DIY
installs and the choice of control systems.
Most of my web searches seem to lead to Gledhill products as a market
leader but they don't seem to offer systems with plate heat exchangers
which I read are preferred in hard water areas like mine.

Anyone been this way before?

I spoke to the heatweb folks about their Pandora system a couple of
years back. That would do all the things that you want. A bit pricey at
about £1,600 at the time for a 250L store, PHE, blending valve etc.

There is a design for a DIY one he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=DIY_Heat_Bank

One of the difficulties is finding a large enough cylinder to use it
with, without having to buy a unvented one!


Hi John,

Looking at the DIY system, it would appear that the flow temperature for
the rads could be 80 odd degrees which seems a bit too hot really.
I've been looking at TMVs to regulate this but it seems that they don't
go above 60 degrees. Do you know of TMV suitable for radiator use?

Cheers

Bob

On 31/12/2011 23:03, Bob Minchin wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 30/12/2011 11:58, Bob Minchin wrote:
Next years paper round-2-it design project for me is going to be
installing a thermal store/heatbank with a solar collector on the roof
and mains pressure hot water for the house.

I would very much like to be able to swap notes and generally get
experience from anyone who has gone down this path already.
Of particular interest are the makers/suppliers of components for DIY
installs and the choice of control systems.
Most of my web searches seem to lead to Gledhill products as a market
leader but they don't seem to offer systems with plate heat exchangers
which I read are preferred in hard water areas like mine.

Anyone been this way before?

I spoke to the heatweb folks about their Pandora system a couple of
years back. That would do all the things that you want. A bit pricey at
about £1,600 at the time for a 250L store, PHE, blending valve etc.

There is a design for a DIY one he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=DIY_Heat_Bank

One of the difficulties is finding a large enough cylinder to use it
with, without having to buy a unvented one!


Hi John,

Looking at the DIY system, it would appear that the flow temperature for
the rads could be 80 odd degrees which seems a bit too hot really.

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is nothing
like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating, unless you
have ample additional sources of heat to aggregate into the system
(dribble will disagree of course and propose spending thousands in the
quest for a further 1%).

I've been looking at TMVs to regulate this but it seems that they don't
go above 60 degrees. Do you know of TMV suitable for radiator use?

It shows the rads being fed form a lower tapping on the cylinder - that
should mitigate a bit. You don't have to heat the store to 80 either...
(you will just lose some energy density)

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 00:00:49 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

It shows the rads being fed form a lower tapping on the cylinder - that
should mitigate a bit.

A lot. A decent heat store stratifies, the very top maybe approaching
90C, the middle may well only be 70 and the bottom 50.

The backup oil boiler has it's sensor a few inches lower than the CH
flow tapping which is about from the middle of the store (vertically)
and IIRC the boiler comes on at 65C and off at 70. That seems to work
fairly well in keeping the house warm.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump overrun and
all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is nothing like
the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your understanding of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I've been looking at TMVs to regulate this but it seems that they don't
go above 60 degrees. Do you know of TMV suitable for radiator use?

The DIY instructions are limited at that wiki site. They assume all has to
run at 80C. They have little idea of stratification or condensing boiler
operation.

On 01/01/2012 10:39, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is
nothing like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your understanding of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I guess from your position, minimal must seem like a a long way up.

I've been looking at TMVs to regulate this but it seems that they don't
go above 60 degrees. Do you know of TMV suitable for radiator use?

The DIY instructions are limited at that wiki site. They assume all has
to run at 80C. They have little idea of stratification or condensing
boiler operation.

You will have to forgive dribble, but his reading and comprehension
level are not very advanced.

Stratification is explained he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Stratification

Note the diagram he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Bank-Water.gif

Is showing a store configured for DHW production specifically rather
than also running the radiators. Needless to say, its easy enough to
adapt the same concept to allow the rads to run from a lower tapping on
the store if required.





--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/01/2012 10:39, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is
nothing like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your understanding of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I guess from your position, minimal must seem

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

Note the diagram he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Bank-Water.gif

That is for DHW only. It is pointless, and highly inefficient, running CH
directly from a boiler when a store of water is available. Having CH off the
store using a Smart pump and TRVs on all rads means no central room
thermostat is needed adding to comfort condition and simpler control. A
boiler heating only a DHW/CH store operates at it maximum efficiency
enhancing condensing efficiency. The boiler's longevity is greatly
promoted.

That arrangement will destroy stratification, unless the pumps speed or
volume is controlled in pumping water back into the cylinder.

The OP is using solar panel where the stratification levels have to be
maintained, especially in winter,to get the most out of the panels.
Otherwise he may end up with low grade heat inside the cylinder.

In this setup the OP is best having a coil for CH take off to separate the
CH rads from the cylinder water to avoid sludge build up.

He is "probably" better off having a solar coil in the store heated by the
panels - although done right heating he water directly is possible and more
efficient.
He is also "probably" better off having DHW take off via a coil as this will
not destroy stratification. Or a control mechanism to only allow the
correct volume of water enter the cylinder complete with anti stratification
baffles.

It is best to use a stainless steel cylinder and coils (SS coils last
longer).
It is best the amateurs stay out of advising on such matters otherwise it
will end in tears.

On Jan 2, 8:48*am, Doctor Drivel wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message

o.uk...

On 01/01/2012 10:39, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:EbKdnS08G42oP2LTnZ2dnUVZ8sadnZ2d@brightview .co.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is
nothing like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your understanding of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I guess from your position, minimal must seem

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

Note the diagram he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Bank-Water.gif

That is for DHW only. It is pointless, and highly inefficient, running CH
directly from a boiler when a store of water is available. Having CH off the
store using a Smart pump and TRVs on all rads means no central room
thermostat is needed adding to comfort condition and simpler control. *A
boiler heating only a DHW/CH store operates at it maximum efficiency
enhancing condensing efficiency. *The boiler's longevity is greatly
promoted.

That arrangement will destroy stratification, unless the pumps speed or
volume is controlled in pumping water back into the cylinder.

The OP is using solar panel where the stratification levels have to be
maintained, especially in winter,to get the most out of the panels.
Otherwise he may end up with low grade heat inside the cylinder.

In this setup the OP is best having a coil for CH take off to separate the
CH rads from the cylinder water to avoid sludge build up.

He is "probably" better off having a solar coil in the store heated by the
panels - although done right heating he water directly is possible and more
efficient.
He is also "probably" better off having DHW take off via a coil as this will
not destroy stratification. *Or a control mechanism to only allow the
correct volume of water enter the cylinder complete with anti stratification
baffles.

It is best to use a stainless steel cylinder and coils (SS coils last
longer).
It is best the amateurs stay out of advising on such matters otherwise it
will end in tears.

IME stratification only lasts a couple of days at most. Convection is
not the only mode of heat transferr. Conduction from hot to cold
water in a storage tank tends to equalise temperatures out.
ie, once cooler water is intrduced to the bottom of a tank, it's
influence spreads to the upper levels regardless in a few hours/days..

On 02/01/2012 08:48, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/01/2012 10:39, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is
nothing like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your understanding of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I guess from your position, minimal must seem

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

Repeating yourself dribble?

Note the diagram he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Bank-Water.gif

That is for DHW only.

No **** sherlock. I see you did actually manage to understand when I
said "Is showing a store configured for DHW production specifically
rather than also running the radiators", well done the tablets must be
working.

It is pointless,

Well no, it give you mains pressure potable hot water for all the house
with the flow rate not limited to what the boiler can heat on the fly.
Does not require G3 certification, has an external PHE for improved
serviceability in hard water areas. It also allows easy integration of
other heat sources into DHW production.

and highly inefficient,

That makes no sense really.

running CH directly from a boiler when a store of water is available. Having CH
off the store using a Smart pump and TRVs on all rads means no central
room thermostat is needed adding to comfort condition and simpler
control.

Simpler control huh? You need to drag yourself out of the '70s dribble.
Modern boilers can reach seasonally adjusted efficiency figures well in
excess of 90% without any type of store, without weather compensation,
and often without even condensing while producing DHW with controls no
more sophisticated than a room stat, and some TRVs. If all you seek are
efficiency gains, then the hard reality is that there are very few
remaining to be had. Adding external temperature sensors to boilers that
support them, and can do weather compensation, remains about the only
cost effective one.

Now if you have a store and another large source of heat available such
as a wood burner, then using the store to run the rads as well will be
worthwhile. As might be the case if you can make use of large quantities
of warm rather than hot water for space heating - such as with UFH.
However its unlikely to be worth the effort if your only other heat
source is solar thermal - since its contribution to space heating
requirements in our climate are likely to be negligible.

A boiler heating only a DHW/CH store operates at it maximum
efficiency enhancing condensing efficiency.

Pretty much the case these days with just the rads as well - certainly
on medium and larger systems anyway.

The boiler's longevity is
greatly promoted.

Who by, a salesman such as yourself?

That arrangement will destroy stratification, unless the pumps speed or
volume is controlled in pumping water back into the cylinder.

See your comment about baffles below...

The OP is using solar panel where the stratification levels have to be
maintained, especially in winter,to get the most out of the panels.
Otherwise he may end up with low grade heat inside the cylinder.

In this setup the OP is best having a coil for CH take off to separate
the CH rads from the cylinder water to avoid sludge build up.

He is "probably" better off having a solar coil in the store heated by
the panels

Agreed.

although done right heating he water directly is possible
and more efficient.

Not much in it. It also means you need a vented primary which is less
desirable in many cases.

He is also "probably" better off having DHW take off via a coil as this
will not destroy stratification. Or a control mechanism to only allow
the correct volume of water enter the cylinder complete with anti
stratification baffles.

It is best to use a stainless steel cylinder and coils (SS coils last
longer).
It is best the amateurs stay out of advising on such matters otherwise
it will end in tears.

Never seems to stop you...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/01/2012 08:48, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/01/2012 10:39, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is
nothing like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your understanding
of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I guess from your position, minimal must seem

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

Repeating yourself

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

You are an idiot.

On 02/01/2012 18:54, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/01/2012 08:48, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/01/2012 10:39, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump
overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is
nothing like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I guess from your position, minimal must seem

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

Repeating yourself

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

You are an idiot.

Are you Judith?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 02/01/2012 18:54, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/01/2012 08:48, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/01/2012 10:39, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

In these days of modulating boilers, with load balancing, pump
overrun
and all the other efficiency measures built into then, there is
nothing like the same incentive to use the heatbank for the heating,

You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of
heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best.

I guess from your position, minimal must seem

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

Repeating yourself

Again..."You really do not know what you are writing about. Your
understanding of heating, thermal storage and all is minimal at best."

You are an idiot.

You are an idiot....and a Chav.

John Rumm wrote:
[snip]

Are you Judith?

He doesn't have balls as big as Judith.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]

You are an idiot.

The first sign of madness is talking to yourself.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]

You are an idiot.

The first sign of madness is talking to yourself.

Such wit! Such wit!

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:59:44 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote: [snip]

Are you Judith?

He doesn't have balls as big as Judith.

Although they are on his shoulders.

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:59:44 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote: [snip]

Are you Judith?

He doesn't have balls as big as Judith.

Although they are on his shoulders.

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:59:44 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:
John Rumm wrote: [snip]

Are you Judith?

He doesn't have balls as big as Judith.

Although they are on his shoulders.