Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

Adam wrote:
Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.


Almost certainly

Its shoddy but that's the way it goes. The should have put the
supporting beam in tension before they paced it up

Should I investigate further?


watch and wait. Take photos alongside ruler and hit them for the
redecoration bill. Or the remedial work bill if it gets worse.


Cheers - Adam...

On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 22:38:39 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

watch and wait. Take photos alongside ruler and hit them for the
redecoration bill. Or the remedial work bill if it gets worse.

But tell them(*) now, in writing and keep a copy, that there is
damage occuring in your flat that has started after their works.

(*)Tenant, landlord, owner/occupier etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 22:38:39 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

watch and wait. Take photos alongside ruler and hit them for the
redecoration bill. Or the remedial work bill if it gets worse.

But tell them(*) now, in writing and keep a copy, that there is
damage occuring in your flat that has started after their works.

and ask for details of their insurers, even if you don't currently
intend to claim.

(*)Tenant, landlord, owner/occupier etc.


--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I would, funnily enough when my two neighbours removed their walls the roof
was the problem,it went up a bit and all the ridge tiles cement fell off!

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Adam" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

On Dec 6, 8:22*pm, Adam wrote:
Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

The way to check out cracks is to cement a strip of glass across the
crack. If it breaks, it is obviously still moving.

You want to do all the things mentioned by others.

They should also have put in a "cill" to their opening to avoid the
stress concentrations on the wall below their opening. Especially on
an older building which may have suspect foundations/footings.

It will probably be OK and the cracks can just be fixed.
The lintel only supports the triangle of masonary above it.

Longspan steel lintels are supposed to have a temporary centre support
before they are loaded up. Limits the deflection under load.
Removed when the cement has set.
I expect they neglected to do this.

On Dec 7, 10:12*am, harry wrote:
On Dec 6, 8:22*pm, Adam wrote:

Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

The way to check out cracks is to cement a strip of glass across the
crack. If it breaks, it is obviously still moving.

You want to do all the things mentioned by others.

They should also have put in a "cill" *to their opening to avoid the
stress concentrations on the wall below their opening. *Especially on
an older building which may have suspect foundations/footings.

It will probably be OK and the cracks can just be fixed.
The lintel only supports the triangle of masonary above it.

Longspan steel lintels are supposed to have a temporary centre support
before they are loaded up. *Limits the deflection under load.
Removed when the cement has set.
I expect they neglected to do this.


Might be worth a call to buildiing control to be sure they have
checked the work. Does the party wall act apply in cases like this?

I am reminded what my wife told me about the some of the blocks of
flats in Bucharest during the communist era. Cheauchescu demanded
that all the ground floors be made 'open plan' so that communal meals
could be served there. At the next earthquake the blocks fell down.



Robert

harry wrote:
On Dec 6, 8:22 pm, Adam wrote:
Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

The way to check out cracks is to cement a strip of glass across the
crack. If it breaks, it is obviously still moving.

You want to do all the things mentioned by others.

They should also have put in a "cill" to their opening to avoid the
stress concentrations on the wall below their opening. Especially on
an older building which may have suspect foundations/footings.

It will probably be OK and the cracks can just be fixed.
The lintel only supports the triangle of masonary above it.

Longspan steel lintels are supposed to have a temporary centre support
before they are loaded up. Limits the deflection under load.
Removed when the cement has set.
I expect they neglected to do this.

It occurs to e that if you are prepared to spend a couple of hundred
quid as additional insurance, an inspection by a structural engineer
would be worth getting.

Their reports are generally held to be unbiassed and gospel true in
disputes between insurers builders and homeowners.

I've used some in the past and they are a rare thing in these times,
people who know what they are doing, are very well qualified, are
practical, speak in a simple language and may be trusted, and whose
opinion is worth more than they charge.

On Dec 7, 12:29 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I've used some in the past and they are a rare thing in these times,
people who know what they are doing, are very well qualified, are
practical, speak in a simple language and may be trusted, and whose
opinion is worth more than they charge.

any relation?

:)))))))
Jim K

On Dec 7, 11:05*am, RobertL wrote:
On Dec 7, 10:12*am, harry wrote:





On Dec 6, 8:22*pm, Adam wrote:

Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

The way to check out cracks is to cement a strip of glass across the
crack. If it breaks, it is obviously still moving.

You want to do all the things mentioned by others.

They should also have put in a "cill" *to their opening to avoid the
stress concentrations on the wall below their opening. *Especially on
an older building which may have suspect foundations/footings.

It will probably be OK and the cracks can just be fixed.
The lintel only supports the triangle of masonary above it.

Longspan steel lintels are supposed to have a temporary centre support
before they are loaded up. *Limits the deflection under load.
Removed when the cement has set.
I expect they neglected to do this.

Might be worth a call to buildiing control to be sure they have
checked the work. *Does the party wall act apply in cases like this?

I am reminded what my wife told me about the some of the blocks of
flats in Bucharest during the communist era. * Cheauchescu demanded
that all the ground floors be made 'open plan' so that communal meals
could be served there. * At the next earthquake the blocks fell down.

Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You can have a "party floor" under the Party Wall Act. See

http://www.communities.gov.uk/docume...pdf/133214.pdf

(diagram 5)

I'd guess that if the flat below is changing the way in which the
floor is supported, by inserting a steel, the the PWA would apply, and
a PW notice should have been served.

Cheers
Richard

On Dec 7, 12:29*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Dec 6, 8:22 pm, Adam wrote:
Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

The way to check out cracks is to cement a strip of glass across the
crack. If it breaks, it is obviously still moving.

You want to do all the things mentioned by others.

They should also have put in a "cill" *to their opening to avoid the
stress concentrations on the wall below their opening. *Especially on
an older building which may have suspect foundations/footings.

It will probably be OK and the cracks can just be fixed.
The lintel only supports the triangle of masonary above it.

Longspan steel lintels are supposed to have a temporary centre support
before they are loaded up. *Limits the deflection under load.
Removed when the cement has set.
I expect they neglected to do this.

It occurs to e that if you are prepared to spend a couple of hundred
quid as additional insurance, an inspection by a structural engineer
would be worth getting.

Their reports are generally held to be unbiassed and gospel true in
disputes between insurers builders and homeowners.

I've used some in the past and they are a rare thing in these times,
people who know what they are doing, are very well qualified, are
practical, speak in a simple language and may be trusted, and whose
opinion is worth more than they charge.-

I agree 100% with your last para.

Another advantage of going to a struct.eng. is that he will contact
building control himself. That way, if there is any aggro because BC
did not approve the change then the OP is slightly distanced from teh
strom: "i employed a Struct eng to assess the damage in my flat - I
didn'tshop you to BC".

The absence of a party wall agreement (or even a PW notice) suggests
they have not being doing everything by the book and it is possible
that BC are completely in the dark about it all.

Robert

On Wed, 7 Dec 2011 00:29:28 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

But tell them(*) now, in writing and keep a copy, that there is
damage occuring in your flat that has started after their works.

and ask for details of their insurers, even if you don't currently
intend to claim.

Good one, they might change insurers(*) and the new ones wouldn't be
interested in "pre-existing" problems.

(*)Possibly completly innocently to get a better deal.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Exactly what is the crack like?
IE, is it a triangle due to a triangle above the lintel dropping?

On a house with a good thickness of raft not much matters (not much
will move). Even if they screw it up only the triangle will drop - and
then stop, because there is a lintel beneath it :-)

On a house with strip foundations, internal walls can have interesting
foundations and require piers to be poured with even extra steel
columns added. This is not a trivial step that can be omitted. The
bearing capability of the ground is important re size & depth of the
column pads. The lintel should be centre supported because the defacto
rule is loads are calculated to be distributed and not point with
lintels. The lintel should be very well packed, set on suitable
padstones (poured, engineering brick) to spread the loading.

If DIY without BC involvement only a fool would not over-engineer for
the worst case, ie, if you find a strip foundation or thin raft you
would wide and deep pour, column & beam. Structural engineers are
indeed people you can build upon :-)

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
Exactly what is the crack like?
IE, is it a triangle due to a triangle above the lintel dropping?

On a house with a good thickness of raft not much matters (not much
will move). Even if they screw it up only the triangle will drop - and
then stop, because there is a lintel beneath it :-)

I'm absolutely convinced that our windowframes support the lintels which
support the brickwork.
Bloody cowboys.

On a house with strip foundations, internal walls can have interesting
foundations and require piers to be poured with even extra steel
columns added. This is not a trivial step that can be omitted. The
bearing capability of the ground is important re size & depth of the
column pads. The lintel should be centre supported because the defacto
rule is loads are calculated to be distributed and not point with
lintels. The lintel should be very well packed, set on suitable
padstones (poured, engineering brick) to spread the loading.

If DIY without BC involvement only a fool would not over-engineer for
the worst case, ie, if you find a strip foundation or thin raft you
would wide and deep pour, column & beam. Structural engineers are
indeed people you can build upon :-)

brass monkey wrote:
I'm absolutely convinced that our windowframes support the lintels which
support the brickwork.

Yer, they discovered that in my place when I had the windows replaced:
http://pics.mdfs.net/2005/11/051125.htm

JGH

On Dec 7, 1:44*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
On Dec 7, 11:05*am, RobertL wrote:









On Dec 7, 10:12*am, harry wrote:

On Dec 6, 8:22*pm, Adam wrote:

Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

The way to check out cracks is to cement a strip of glass across the
crack. If it breaks, it is obviously still moving.

You want to do all the things mentioned by others.

They should also have put in a "cill" *to their opening to avoid the
stress concentrations on the wall below their opening. *Especially on
an older building which may have suspect foundations/footings.

It will probably be OK and the cracks can just be fixed.
The lintel only supports the triangle of masonary above it.

Longspan steel lintels are supposed to have a temporary centre support
before they are loaded up. *Limits the deflection under load.
Removed when the cement has set.
I expect they neglected to do this.

Might be worth a call to buildiing control to be sure they have
checked the work. *Does the party wall act apply in cases like this?

I am reminded what my wife told me about the some of the blocks of
flats in Bucharest during the communist era. * Cheauchescu demanded
that all the ground floors be made 'open plan' so that communal meals
could be served there. * At the next earthquake the blocks fell down.

Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You can have a "party floor" under the Party Wall Act. See

http://www.communities.gov.uk/docume...ding/pdf/13321...

(diagram 5)

I'd guess that if the flat below is changing the way in which the
floor is supported, by inserting a steel, the the PWA would apply, and
a PW notice should have been served.

Good information - thanks - but the Party Wall Act does not appear to
apply in Scotland...

Cheers - Adam...

First up, thanks to all who have responded. We're prepping a letter
now, and have a friend who is a structural engineer, so will be
employing his services. We want to maintain cordial relations
(although it was us who, slightly accidentally, dobbed them into
building control - they had started the work before the warrant was
awarded, apparently, although they had applied for one [so they say]),
and they are cordial at the moment. On the other hand, we don't want
to be responsible for expensive repairs because of some builder's cack-
handedness.

On Dec 7, 11:24*pm, "js.b1" wrote:
Exactly what is the crack like?
IE, is it a triangle due to a triangle above the lintel dropping?

There are vertical cracks along the junction between the plaster on
the internal (brick, I think) wall and the lath-and-plaster which sits
on the gable-end wall (stone). There are cracks that are slanted about
20-30 degrees off vertical running from the top corner of a door that
is about 2.5 metres from the gable-end. On the other side of the wall
there is a stud-wall and door perpendicular to the wall in question -
there are vertical craks running up both of the corners the door frame
and stud wall make with the older wall, as well as, again, vertical
cracks in the corner formed by the gable-end wall (hope that makes
sense).

On a house with a good thickness of raft not much matters (not much
will move). Even if they screw it up only the triangle will drop - and
then stop, because there is a lintel beneath it :-)

House is an Edinburgh 'colony' - build around 1870ish, substantial
(70cm) thick stone outside walls and pretty substantial (roughly 170mm
by 70mm) joists holding the floors. The wall that the've taken part of
out (they're leaving in some of it, including a door) is (AFAIK) made
of (very low-quality, based on what we've seen elsewhere) bricks and
is about 150mm thick. It runs along the centre (almost) of the
property and supports the floor joists in the middle.

On a house with strip foundations, internal walls can have interesting
foundations and require piers to be poured with even extra steel
columns added. This is not a trivial step that can be omitted. The
bearing capability of the ground is important re size & depth of the
column pads. The lintel should be centre supported because the defacto
rule is loads are calculated to be distributed and not point with
lintels. The lintel should be very well packed, set on suitable
padstones (poured, engineering brick) to spread the loading.

If DIY without BC involvement only a fool would not over-engineer for
the worst case, ie, if you find a strip foundation or thin raft you
would wide and deep pour, column & beam. Structural engineers are
indeed people you can build upon :-)

Who can tell? As mentioned earlier, we accidentally dobbed them in to
building control - that is, saw the work going on and looked online
for a warrant, when I couldn't see one, I called BC - who promptly
said they would pop round and ask. When my wife later spoke to the
owner, she said that they had applied, and the builder had said it was
OK to start before it was actually granted.

Sounds like getting in a structural engineer and getting a (nice)
letter off is the way to go. Hopefully it will prove to be the least
worst case - a little settling.

Cheers all - Adam...

On Dec 7, 1:56*pm, RobertL wrote:
On Dec 7, 12:29*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:









harry wrote:
On Dec 6, 8:22 pm, Adam wrote:
Hi All,

Just a quick bit of advice, please.

The flat underneath us has taken out a part of what I think is a load-
bearing wall - they've put in a RSJ. Subsequent to that work, we have
several cracks (1mm, perhaps 2mm wide) in the plaster of the
corresponding wall in our place. These appear to be stable - we took
photos when they first appeared and have compared around 1 and 2 weeks
later and they appear the same. I'm assuming that it was just a little
settling as they got the RSJ in.

Should I investigate further?

Cheers - Adam...

The way to check out cracks is to cement a strip of glass across the
crack. If it breaks, it is obviously still moving.

You want to do all the things mentioned by others.

They should also have put in a "cill" *to their opening to avoid the
stress concentrations on the wall below their opening. *Especially on
an older building which may have suspect foundations/footings.

It will probably be OK and the cracks can just be fixed.
The lintel only supports the triangle of masonary above it.

Longspan steel lintels are supposed to have a temporary centre support
before they are loaded up. *Limits the deflection under load.
Removed when the cement has set.
I expect they neglected to do this.

It occurs to e that if you are prepared to spend a couple of hundred
quid as additional insurance, an inspection by a structural engineer
would be worth getting.

Their reports are generally held to be unbiassed and gospel true in
disputes between insurers builders and homeowners.

I've used some in the past and they are a rare thing in these times,
people who know what they are doing, are very well qualified, are
practical, speak in a simple language and may be trusted, and whose
opinion is worth more than they charge.-

I agree 100% with your last para.

Another *advantage of going to a struct.eng. is that he will contact
building control himself. *That way, if there is any aggro because BC
did not approve the change then the OP is slightly distanced from teh
strom: "i employed a Struct eng to assess the damage in my flat - I
didn'tshop you to BC".

The absence of a party wall agreement (or even a PW notice) suggests
they have not being doing everything by the book and it is *possible
that BC are completely in the dark about it all.

Robert

If the freehold of both flats is owmned by the same person who serves
who with a notice?

MBQ

In article om,
"brass monkey" writes:

I'm absolutely convinced that our windowframes support the lintels which
support the brickwork.

Two of mine were like that - the timber lintels above weren't well enough
supported by the brickwork. There was a brickie there doing some other
work when the first such one was exposed, and he stepped across and
mortared in a new brick support for that one. I did the same when we came
across the second one. The others were all fine.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]