An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a 10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

On 25/11/2011 14:17, Ghostrecon wrote:


An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a 10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity
company will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits,
how the output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is
going to be. Under performance would not raise any concern but any over
performance would ring the bell loud and clear.

--
Roger Chapman

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:17:22 +0000, Ghostrecon wrote:

An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of
leecy in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of
generation in our gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with
HouseHolder G next door - H uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity
from G at 20p unit and feeds in to the grid (some loss in step/up/down
rectification I guess) G makes a 10p profit per unit and and H makes a
20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks
using 10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even
better if charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of
buying the batteries?

Any distortion of the free market by the state will cause such potential
schemes to emerge ...

IIRC in the 80s, BT offered cheap calls at night, to allow firms to send
faxes in bulk. Some smart cookies worked out that if they ran a bank of
diallers to call premium-rate numbers (which they owned) BT would
effectively be paying them nett each month.

WRT the scheme above, I suspect the Energy companies will have fraud-
detection software in place to watch for anomalous profiles. Since they
are already monitoring for unmetered energy consumption, I imagine it's
not too much of a reach.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:37:58 +0000, Roger Chapman wrote:

On 25/11/2011 14:17, Ghostrecon wrote:


An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a 10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity
company will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits,
how the output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is
going to be. Under performance would not raise any concern but any over
performance would ring the bell loud and clear.

umm I was advocating this obvious illegal practice it arose as I was
thinking about whether I could save money by using a solar panel and
battery to reduce some of my base load of 12v devices - mainly routers. I
would think that if you did someting stupid like feeding in more than the
max possible or feeding in at night then yes it would be picked up quickly
- I was thinking really of the less extreme supplementing during the day
when the weather was foggy/cloudy - cant really see that they could monitor
the weather to such an extent?
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:58:25 +0000, Ghostrecon wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:37:58 +0000, Roger Chapman wrote:

On 25/11/2011 14:17, Ghostrecon wrote:


An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a 10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity
company will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits,
how the output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is
going to be. Under performance would not raise any concern but any over
performance would ring the bell loud and clear.

umm I was advocating this obvious illegal practice it arose as I was
thinking about whether I could save money by using a solar panel and
battery to reduce some of my base load of 12v devices - mainly routers. I
would think that if you did someting stupid like feeding in more than the
max possible or feeding in at night then yes it would be picked up quickly
- I was thinking really of the less extreme supplementing during the day
when the weather was foggy/cloudy - cant really see that they could monitor
the weather to such an extent?



oops correction

I WASN'T advocating :-)
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

On 25/11/2011 14:58, Ghostrecon wrote:

- I was thinking really of the less extreme supplementing during the day
when the weather was foggy/cloudy - cant really see that they could monitor
the weather to such an extent?

They don't need too. As I understand it all they are getting is 3
monthly generation figures. If they add up to too much overall in the
course of a year or if one quarter is significantly over productive then
they will be on to you.

--
Roger Chapman

Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 14:17, Ghostrecon wrote:


An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of
leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in
our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and
feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes
a 10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks
using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity
company will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits,
how the output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is
going to be. Under performance would not raise any concern but any over
performance would ring the bell loud and clear.

took em over a year to tumble to the fact that 'solar power' after dark
was costing the spanish economy...rather a lot.

On 25/11/2011 16:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity
company will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits,
how the output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is
going to be. Under performance would not raise any concern but any
over performance would ring the bell loud and clear.

took em over a year to tumble to the fact that 'solar power' after dark
was costing the spanish economy...rather a lot.

Well we are well accustomed to 'Spanish practices'. ;-)

--
Roger Chapman

On 25/11/2011 14:37, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 14:17, Ghostrecon wrote:


An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of
leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in
our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and
feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes
a 10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks
using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity
company will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits,
how the output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is
going to be. Under performance would not raise any concern but any over
performance would ring the bell loud and clear.

The smoother version would be for neighbour to buy a legit 4kW setup.
Once installed and setup, flog off all the panels for a quick recoup of
a large chunk of the investment, and then to a deal with a neighbour to
borrow a mains feed. Make sure that the injection rate is controlled by
the level detected by a small solar panel (only needs to be a couple of
inches square). That way the feed in matches expectations and local
weather condition perfectly. ;-)

Hardly any more fraudulent than the actual scheme, and there is no
chance of unbalancing the grid with a system like that!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Does this not contravene the contracts though?

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Ghostrecon" wrote in message
...
An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a
10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?
--
(º..¸(¨*..¸ ¸..*¨)¸..º)
..°.. Nik ..°..
(¸..º(¸..¨* *¨..¸)º..¸)

It just goes to show though, how stupid the whole false costings really are.
One should really make this unsubsidised and level, this would then really
rule out stupid systems as are being fitted and hopefully make people more
inclined to shop around for the cheap option and hopefully if the
regulator was fair, drive prices back down to non profiteering levels.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 25/11/2011 14:17, Ghostrecon wrote:


An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of
leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in
our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds
in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a
10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks
using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity company
will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits, how the
output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is going to be.
Under performance would not raise any concern but any over performance
would ring the bell loud and clear.

--
Roger Chapman

Jethro writes:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:17:22 +0000, Ghostrecon wrote:

An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of
leecy in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of
generation in our gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with
HouseHolder G next door - H uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity
from G at 20p unit and feeds in to the grid (some loss in step/up/down
rectification I guess) G makes a 10p profit per unit and and H makes a
20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks
using 10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even
better if charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of
buying the batteries?

Any distortion of the free market by the state will cause such potential
schemes to emerge ...

IIRC in the 80s, BT offered cheap calls at night, to allow firms to send
faxes in bulk. Some smart cookies worked out that if they ran a bank of
diallers to call premium-rate numbers (which they owned) BT would
effectively be paying them nett each month.

WRT the scheme above, I suspect the Energy companies will have fraud-
detection software in place to watch for anomalous profiles. Since they
are already monitoring for unmetered energy consumption, I imagine it's
not too much of a reach.

I'm not sure how sophisticated such monitoring might be.
They seem to want to 'change the meter' quite often when I have an
untenanted flat with near-zero electricity consumption.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:38:12 -0000, Brian Gaff wrote:

... comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H uses
an
extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G
makes a
10p profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit?
Possible??

Does this not contravene the contracts though?

Probably, one would have to look at the wording of the contracts to
determine if the source of the "generated" electricity is leaglly
tied down.

Even if the source is not tied down it would be fraud and since when
have fraudesters worried about breaking or bending contracts?

There seems to be a growing assumption that inventing a law will
*actually* stop people doing what ever that law is supposed to stop.
That will only happen if the chances of being caught and the penalty
are high enough to make what ever it is not worth while.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 25/11/2011 14:17, Ghostrecon wrote:


An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of
leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in
our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds
in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a
10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks
using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?

That of course would be out and out fraud which, or so it seems to me,
would be 100% detectable without very much effort. The electricity company
will know the size of the array and thus, within close limits, how the
output will vary during the year and what the yearly total is going to be.
Under performance would not raise any concern but any over performance
would ring the bell loud and clear.

Did I miss something - This is electricity company admin departments we are
talking about here?

tim

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:38:12 -0000, Brian Gaff wrote:

... comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H uses
an
extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G
makes a
10p profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit?
Possible??
Does this not contravene the contracts though?

Probably, one would have to look at the wording of the contracts to
determine if the source of the "generated" electricity is leaglly
tied down.

Even if the source is not tied down it would be fraud and since when
have fraudesters worried about breaking or bending contracts?

There seems to be a growing assumption that inventing a law will
*actually* stop people doing what ever that law is supposed to stop.
That will only happen if the chances of being caught and the penalty
are high enough to make what ever it is not worth while.

That assumption was purely down to 10 years of Blair, the shyster
lawyer, who felt that laws were a cheap way to placate public opinion
and raise taxes..

The net result is that the law itself is now simply disregarded

In Nov 25, 2:17*pm, Ghostrecon wrote:
An Idle thought this morning ... somebody with an installed 4kw solar on
the 40 odd p fit call them Householder H shall we generates loads of leecy
in the nice summer months but is dismayed by the lack of generation in our
gloomy winter so comes to an arragement with HouseHolder G next door - H
uses an extension lead to 'buy electricity from G at 20p unit and feeds in
to the grid (some loss in step/up/down rectification I guess) G makes a 10p
profit per unit and and H makes a 20p profit per unit? *Possible??

Possible variations for H - buys and charges couple of battery banks using
10p/unit electricity and feeds it back in at 43p unit ?? - Even better if
charged with economy 7 electricity but has the added cost of buying the
batteries?
--
*(º•.¸(¨*•.¸ * ¸.•*¨)¸.•º)
* * .•°•. *Nik .•°•.
*(¸.•º(¸.•¨* **¨•.¸)º•.¸)


from what I've seen on TV, the connections from panels to utility
supply are sealed just like normal meters, so some physical damage
would be required to do this.

rusty

On 26/11/2011 09:00, Windmill wrote:

WRT the scheme above, I suspect the Energy companies will have fraud-
detection software in place to watch for anomalous profiles. Since they
are already monitoring for unmetered energy consumption, I imagine it's
not too much of a reach.
I'm not sure how sophisticated such monitoring might be.
They seem to want to 'change the meter' quite often when I have an
untenanted flat with near-zero electricity consumption.

That at least suggests they have a robust scheme in place for detecting
anomalies even if they are entirely unsophisticated in following the
anomalies up. With Solar they won't have the problem of footloose
tenants. Any infeasibly high output is always going to stand out and any
variation over the years will be relatively minor and mirrored over all
their PV connections.

--
Roger Chapman

On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 09:00:10 GMT, lid
(Windmill) wrote:

WRT the scheme above, I suspect the Energy companies will have fraud-
detection software in place to watch for anomalous profiles. Since they
are already monitoring for unmetered energy consumption, I imagine it's
not too much of a reach.

How are they "monitoring for unmetered energy consumption" ?


--

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:01:30 +0000, The Other Mike wrote:

How are they "monitoring for unmetered energy consumption" ?

Pattern of recorded meter readings against the pattern that type of
property should have. So if you want to get into hydroponics only put
the pumps and lighting on the iffy feed, keep everything else as
normal so the meter readings look right.

--
Cheers
Dave.