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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a
shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM |
#2
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On 14/11/2011 17:34, MM wrote:
So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM I have only ever had one pipe freeze. That was an elbow right in the eaves where the old sacking type insulation had evidently migrated away from the elbow over the years. It was in an exposed bungalow in Norfolk in an exceptionally cold winter some time between 78 and 83. Our current house has 4 inches of loft insulation that have deteriorated/compacted over the years. I haven't increased the level of insulation with a view to avoiding freezing pipes while we are away. All pipes are reasonably insulated. It is possible to get low wattage heating wire to put inside the insulation but I think this is more likely to be used in schools etc which are shut down over Xmas hols. After this year we will probably be spending most of the winter in warmer climes. I intend to leave the heating on low and possibly the loft hatch slightly open in the winter. Not sure about the pipes under our wooden floored house? |
#3
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Nov 14, 5:34*pm, MM wrote:
So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM Try this stuff: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...FQIf4QodTWcHlg And proper pipe insulation. Richard |
#4
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:15:54 -0800 (PST), RJS
wrote: Try this stuff: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...FQIf4QodTWcHlg And proper pipe insulation. They certainly know how to charge for that. My local hardware/farmers' supply store has 18m kits for forty euros (inc vat). |
#5
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
In article ,
MM writes: So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). I doubt a tube heater will do anything in a loft. Make sure the pipework is insulated with the thicker-walled pipe insulation. Make sure there isn't any insulation under the tank(s) and pipework (hopefully, the pipework is localised around the tank(s)). If necessary, fit a froststat in the loft which brings on the normal central heating. (At least, that's what I've done.) -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#6
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , MM writes: So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). I doubt a tube heater will do anything in a loft. It would do the same as a 60W light bulb ie sod all. Make sure the pipework is insulated with the thicker-walled pipe insulation. Make sure there isn't any insulation under the tank(s) and pipework (hopefully, the pipework is localised around the tank(s)). If necessary, fit a froststat in the loft which brings on the normal central heating. (At least, that's what I've done.) A friend of mine had a bad freeze/burst last winter and it was the incoming supply. The heating was on but as no one was at home the cold water never got used. You can insulate up to the tits but the water needs to be moved/refreshed to make the insulation work. -- Adam |
#7
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:53:22 -0000, "ARWadsworth"
wrote: Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , MM writes: So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). I doubt a tube heater will do anything in a loft. It would do the same as a 60W light bulb ie sod all. Make sure the pipework is insulated with the thicker-walled pipe insulation. Make sure there isn't any insulation under the tank(s) and pipework (hopefully, the pipework is localised around the tank(s)). If necessary, fit a froststat in the loft which brings on the normal central heating. (At least, that's what I've done.) A friend of mine had a bad freeze/burst last winter and it was the incoming supply. The heating was on but as no one was at home the cold water never got used. You can insulate up to the tits but the water needs to be moved/refreshed to make the insulation work. So what you're suggesting is, it's not possible to avoid pipes freezing if the house is unoccupied? MM |
#8
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
In article , MM
wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:53:22 -0000, "ARWadsworth" wrote: Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , MM writes: So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). I doubt a tube heater will do anything in a loft. It would do the same as a 60W light bulb ie sod all. Make sure the pipework is insulated with the thicker-walled pipe insulation. Make sure there isn't any insulation under the tank(s) and pipework (hopefully, the pipework is localised around the tank(s)). If necessary, fit a froststat in the loft which brings on the normal central heating. (At least, that's what I've done.) A friend of mine had a bad freeze/burst last winter and it was the incoming supply. The heating was on but as no one was at home the cold water never got used. You can insulate up to the tits but the water needs to be moved/refreshed to make the insulation work. So what you're suggesting is, it's not possible to avoid pipes freezing if the house is unoccupied? my father died in October 1995 ands sicne the house probably wouldn't be sold until the spring, I fitted a frost stat to the CH to stop things freezing up. Unfortuately, the outside temp fell to about -20C on a few overnights and the whole contents of the water tank in the loft froze solid. Luckily a neigbour cam in and turned of the water before any damage occured. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 |
#9
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
In article ,
charles writes: my father died in October 1995 ands sicne the house probably wouldn't be sold until the spring, I fitted a frost stat to the CH to stop things freezing up. Unfortuately, the outside temp fell to about -20C on a few overnights and the whole contents of the water tank in the loft froze solid. Luckily a neigbour cam in and turned of the water before any damage occured. One grandmother died in 1995, and it took a couple of years to sell the house. I left the heating on low and the loft hatch part open so some of the heat went up there. Water was turned off, so if something did go wrong, damage was limited to a tank full of water. Topped up the CH header tank from the cold water storage tank a few times, bailing the water with an old saucepan. If I'd know it was going to take this long, might have drained the whole water system instead. The next owners ripped it all out anyway, except the radiator pipework (the rest was mainly iron). If you leave the loft hatch open, you need to check it's not causing condensation up there. If the house is unoccupied and ventilated, it shouldn't. When we did eventually turn the water back on, I found the plastic guts of one of the tank ball valves had been damaged by freezing, so it didn't fully close anymore. As the water had been off at the time, it didn't matter. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#10
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On 15/11/2011 07:17, MM wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:53:22 -0000, "ARWadsworth" wrote: Andrew Gabriel wrote: In , writes: So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). I doubt a tube heater will do anything in a loft. It would do the same as a 60W light bulb ie sod all. Make sure the pipework is insulated with the thicker-walled pipe insulation. Make sure there isn't any insulation under the tank(s) and pipework (hopefully, the pipework is localised around the tank(s)). If necessary, fit a froststat in the loft which brings on the normal central heating. (At least, that's what I've done.) A friend of mine had a bad freeze/burst last winter and it was the incoming supply. The heating was on but as no one was at home the cold water never got used. You can insulate up to the tits but the water needs to be moved/refreshed to make the insulation work. So what you're suggesting is, it's not possible to avoid pipes freezing if the house is unoccupied? MM Insulation slows down the rate at which pipes cool down and freeze. Long term the only way to counteract this is to introduce some heat by: Heat from the house in general. Ie heating left on or via froststat Keeping pipes slightly heated by tape running inside the pipe insulation Introducing heat by letting fresh water in from the mains and making sure it reaches all the pipes at risk.. Keeping all the pipes and the tank above freezing when a house is unoccupied for long periods is a problem unless you are prepared to throw money at it. |
#11
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
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#12
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:15:37 +0000, MM wrote:
That sounds like it could be expensive. As I've mentioned before in this ng my house does not have any thermostat, even though it was built only 8 years ago. It just has Honeywell knob adjusters on all the rads. On the wall in the annexe next to the kitchen is the Danfoss timeswitch/controller at which I program heating and hot water independently of each other. So wiring in a froststat would have to be done by a heating engineer, I should think. How the hell did that get Buiiding Regs approval? Even the regs twenty years ago had something in about boiler interlocks when there is no call for heat. -- |
#13
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:01:41 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote: On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:15:37 +0000, MM wrote: That sounds like it could be expensive. As I've mentioned before in this ng my house does not have any thermostat, even though it was built only 8 years ago. It just has Honeywell knob adjusters on all the rads. On the wall in the annexe next to the kitchen is the Danfoss timeswitch/controller at which I program heating and hot water independently of each other. So wiring in a froststat would have to be done by a heating engineer, I should think. How the hell did that get Buiiding Regs approval? Even the regs twenty years ago had something in about boiler interlocks when there is no call for heat. What has "boiler interlocks" got to do with a froststat and/or thermostat? MM |
#14
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:15:26 +0000, MM wrote:
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:01:41 +0000, The Other Mike wrote: On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:15:37 +0000, MM wrote: That sounds like it could be expensive. As I've mentioned before in this ng my house does not have any thermostat, even though it was built only 8 years ago. It just has Honeywell knob adjusters on all the rads. On the wall in the annexe next to the kitchen is the Danfoss timeswitch/controller at which I program heating and hot water independently of each other. So wiring in a froststat would have to be done by a heating engineer, I should think. How the hell did that get Buiiding Regs approval? Even the regs twenty years ago had something in about boiler interlocks when there is no call for heat. What has "boiler interlocks" got to do with a froststat and/or thermostat? In basic terms you are not permitted to use the boiler thermostat to control the room temperature (previously you were) You might possibly have a flow switch on the boiler in lieu of of a room thermostat in which case it is compliant. -- |
#15
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:01:41 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote: That sounds like it could be expensive. As I've mentioned before in this ng my house does not have any thermostat, even though it was built only 8 years ago. It just has Honeywell knob adjusters on all the rads. On the wall in the annexe next to the kitchen is the Danfoss timeswitch/controller at which I program heating and hot water independently of each other. So wiring in a froststat would have to be done by a heating engineer, I should think. How the hell did that get Buiiding Regs approval? Even the regs twenty years ago had something in about boiler interlocks when there is no call for heat. No thermostat used to be quite common, relying on the boilerstat to turn the system off. Bleedin' inefficient, of course, but cheaper for the builder/installer and when oil was cheap nobody seemed to mind it too much (or didn't realise they'd been bilked). |
#16
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
MM wrote:
So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. Heating trace tape - around the pipe and under the insulation. Safe (if you don;t buy a crap tape - decent ones should be self regulating), inexpensiuve to run and fairly easy to install. The wattage is low enough (10W/m ish) unless you have a silly amount of pipe. Pop a cheap thermostat at the feed end to avoid running unnescessarily... He http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CCSR100.html Tim Watts |
#17
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
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#18
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
"MM" wrote in message
... So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM Don't know whether you can get them here, but in the US they have "ribbon heater cable" specifically for this purpose. It looks not unlike those "light cables" except yellow and flat and you wrap it around all your pipes where it sits keeping them frost free. Perhaps there's a market for them over here, if they're not available already. Paul DS. |
#19
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
Paul D Smith wrote:
"MM" wrote in message ... So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM Don't know whether you can get them here, but in the US they have "ribbon heater cable" specifically for this purpose. It looks not unlike those "light cables" except yellow and flat and you wrap it around all your pipes where it sits keeping them frost free. Perhaps there's a market for them over here, if they're not available already. They are - they've been mentioned at least twice in this thread - "heat trace cable" -- Tim Watts |
#20
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
Tim Watts wrote:
Paul D Smith wrote: "MM" wrote in message ... So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM Don't know whether you can get them here, but in the US they have "ribbon heater cable" specifically for this purpose. It looks not unlike those "light cables" except yellow and flat and you wrap it around all your pipes where it sits keeping them frost free. Perhaps there's a market for them over here, if they're not available already. They are - they've been mentioned at least twice in this thread - "heat trace cable" YOU will call it heart attack cable when you see the price:-) -- Adam |
#21
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
ARWadsworth wrote:
Tim Watts wrote: They are - they've been mentioned at least twice in this thread - "heat trace cable" YOU will call it heart attack cable when you see the price:-) Yes, even buying a reel I cannot get the price below GBP7/metre. I've bought some for under a portacabin, cw frostsat, but we've got a 40m length of 28mm blue pipe in trunking between buildings that I'm worried about. BN Thermic are in Crawley and I've been wondering about asking them if I could use the stuff inside the pipe with a termination coming out of a Plasson Tee. AJH |
#22
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:48:08 +0000, andrew
wrote: YOU will call it heart attack cable when you see the price:-) Yes, even buying a reel I cannot get the price below GBP7/metre. I've bought some for under a portacabin, cw frostsat, but we've got a 40m length of 28mm blue pipe in trunking between buildings that I'm worried about. BN Thermic are in Crawley and I've been wondering about asking them if I could use the stuff inside the pipe with a termination coming out of a Plasson Tee. In principle, there's nothing to stop you using some heatproof flex and regulating a LV current down it sufficient to raise conductor temperature, but well within the insulation specs. Somebody here posted such a thing last winter, but I unrecall the details. |
#23
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Nov 14, 5:34*pm, MM wrote:
So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about atubeheater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (thetubeheaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM I've finally purchased a tube heater. 120W 2ft long white, from Argos. This is for the loft. The instruction sheet confirms that it is suitable for the loft (IPX4 rating). In addition to the instruction sheet, is there anything I need to be aware of when mounting it tomorrow (can't do it now as I'm knackered after traipsing around Boston for three hours). MM |
#24
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Dec 10, 5:32*pm, MM wrote:
I've finally purchased a tube heater. 120W 2ft long white, from Argos. This is for the loft. You can heat a 2.5x2x2.4m box room with 1.2x1m single glazing to "just above cold" with a 120W tube heater... but it has 50mm Celotex on the walls... 270mm loft insulation... and EPDM draught excluder fitted... and the room below is heated. A loft usually has a gale blowing through the tiles (& sarking felt) and is separated from the heated house by a good thickness of insulation. So utterly impossible to heat. What you could do is build an enclosure above any water tank & piping, insulation on top of that, and remove any insulation beneath so heat from the house warms it. Then fit a 120W tube heater somewhere in that with a frost thermostat which is set to turn on at (say) 5oC. Heating a loft as a body of air is a non-starter unless the underside of the room has 100mm Celotex on it (correctly ventilated above). Tube heater IP rating is x4 so splashproof, should be fine in a loft unless it is stood in water (which you do not want anyway!). |
#26
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:15:35 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote: But if its anything like my loft its a basic wind tunnel, so it would never be able to cope. You really need to put insulation over the pipe but keep it open to the room below. Brian The pipes are insulated, but I've removed ~some~ of the loft insulation (the orange woolly stuff) around the tank so that more heat can permeate upwards. I leave the loft hatch open for the duration and open the bedroom doors so that heat from the rads will also trickle up. Last December was a LOT colder, but the temperature in the loft just held at about 4 deg C at its minimum. The tube heater is just an additional source of heat, though admittedly not a lot! I tested it this afternoon in a very cold bedroom and it raised the temp by 1 deg in one hour with the door closed. MM |
#27
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That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:32:26 -0000, MM wrote:
On Nov 14, 5:34 pm, MM wrote: So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze. So how about atubeheater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on? What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed detached), 60W enough? How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (thetubeheaters appear to need an extra thermostat). MM I've finally purchased a tube heater. 120W 2ft long white, from Argos. This is for the loft. The instruction sheet confirms that it is suitable for the loft (IPX4 rating). In addition to the instruction sheet, is there anything I need to be aware of when mounting it tomorrow (can't do it now as I'm knackered after traipsing around Boston for three hours). MM With a properly vented loft I fear you are wasting your time and money. The only thing I would rely on would be heating tape under thick insulation if I really thought pipes were going to freeze. |
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