I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Thanks for any help
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

In article ,
Ghostrecon wrote:

I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage...

My answer to a similar question a few months was that I have used 50mm
thick Celotex *on top of* the boarding. Dead easy, but quite expensive
[for my own make-do'n'mend mentality].

I don't honestly know what the thermal value is compared to 6"-9" of
conventional fleece, but I do know that Celotex is very efficient, is
lovely to work with, and provides a smooth, firm "floor".

Of course, it will not take *a lot* of walking about, but it's
definitely sturdy enough to take me[1] walking about on it in soft shoes
now and again, to shift boxes in and out. And of course the stuff just
sits the it doesn't compress the Celotex, which is very strong for a
spread load.

hth
John

[1] Admittedly: 10.6 stone, 67kg.

On Oct 17, 7:01*pm, Another John wrote:
In article ,

*Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. *Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. *I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. *This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage...

My answer to a similar question a few months was that I have used 50mm
thick Celotex *on top of* the boarding. Dead easy, but quite expensive
[for my own make-do'n'mend mentality].

I don't honestly know what the thermal value is compared to 6"-9" of
conventional fleece, but I do know that Celotex is very efficient, is
lovely to work with, and provides a smooth, firm "floor".

Of course, it will not take *a lot* of walking about, but it's
definitely sturdy enough to take me[1] walking about on it in soft shoes
now and again, to shift boxes in and out. *And of course the stuff just
sits the it doesn't compress the Celotex, which is very strong for a
spread load.

hth
John

[1] Admittedly: 10.6 stone, 67kg.

If you've got a lot of free scrap chipboard, you could also use a chip/
polystyrene/chip sandwich


NT

On 17/10/11 19:01, Another John wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
+

insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage...

My answer to a similar question a few months was that I have used 50mm
thick Celotex *on top of* the boarding. Dead easy, but quite expensive
[for my own make-do'n'mend mentality].

I don't honestly know what the thermal value is compared to 6"-9" of
conventional fleece, but I do know that Celotex is very efficient, is
lovely to work with, and provides a smooth, firm "floor".

Of course, it will not take *a lot* of walking about, but it's
definitely sturdy enough to take me[1] walking about on it in soft shoes
now and again, to shift boxes in and out. And of course the stuff just
sits the it doesn't compress the Celotex, which is very strong for a
spread load.

hth
John

[1] Admittedly: 10.6 stone, 67kg.

celotex/kingspan is thinner than rockwool for a fixed amount of
insulation but more expensive.

Rockwoll/glass fibre/y-stuff is subsidised by energy companies so
available very cheap on special offers every so often.

[g]

PS kingspan seconds
are a bit damaged but a lot cheaper than perfect sheets.

[g]

On 17/10/2011 18:37, Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Thanks for any help

I recently did a similar job. My house was built in the mid 70's and
hence has a very shallow roof-pitch with a lot of cross bracing in the
roof supports. My existing insulation just reached the top of the joists
and I had boarding down the centre of the loft to provide a platform for
storage.

I obtained the requisite number of insulation rolls via a discount offer
from Npower (although I'm not an Npower customer). The rolls plus a
safety kit of gloves and goggles and face mask cost around £32.

I bought some chipboard loft boarding from B&Q and created a raised
platform over the top of the new insulation. I did this by fixing some
lengths of wooden floorboards (that I already had) across the inverted
'V's of the roof supports. I then placed the chipboard panels over the
top of these cross pieces and screwed them into position.

The raised platform is now far superior to the rather Heath Robinson
mishmash of boards and planks that formed the platform before.

--
Kev

Justice? You get justice in the next world,
in this world you have the law...
William Gaddis

On 17/10/2011 18:37, Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Fill all the existing space with cheap quilted insulation, and then lay
a PIR foam board insulation on top of the existing floor joists. Lay the
flooring directly on top of the insulation. No need for extra joists etc
(they would only add cold bridges through the insulation anyway). For
storage purposes the flooring on top only needs to protect the top layer
of the foam - so thin ply or even hardboard would probably do.

PIR foam boards are getting on for twice the effectiveness of fibreglass
quilt.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:22:23 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/10/2011 18:37, Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Fill all the existing space with cheap quilted insulation, and then lay
a PIR foam board insulation on top of the existing floor joists. Lay the
flooring directly on top of the insulation. No need for extra joists etc
(they would only add cold bridges through the insulation anyway). For
storage purposes the flooring on top only needs to protect the top layer
of the foam - so thin ply or even hardboard would probably do.

PIR foam boards are getting on for twice the effectiveness of fibreglass
quilt.

sounds like a good plan - looking at second & Co they have Kooltherm boards
- anybody know if they would be suitable ??

http://www.secureviewer.co/Secondsan...p?productid=48

--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

On Oct 17, 9:17*pm, Ghostrecon wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:22:23 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/10/2011 18:37, Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. *Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. *I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. *This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. *Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Fill all the existing space with cheap quilted insulation, and then lay
a PIR foam board insulation on top of the existing floor joists. Lay the
flooring directly on top of the insulation. No need for extra joists etc
(they would only add cold bridges through the insulation anyway). For
storage purposes the flooring on top only needs to protect the top layer
of the foam - so thin ply or even hardboard would probably do.

PIR foam boards are getting on for twice the effectiveness of fibreglass
quilt.

sounds like a good plan - looking at second & Co they have Kooltherm boards
- anybody know if they would be suitable ??

http://www.secureviewer.co/Secondsan...p?productid=48

--
*(º•.¸(¨*•.¸ * ¸.•*¨)¸.•º)
* * .•°•. *Nik .•°•.
*(¸.•º(¸.•¨* **¨•.¸)º•.¸)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have rigid insulation boards in my loft (double layer between and
over the joists).
You can lay chipboard directly on to this, prevents damage through
walking.

You can get seconds half price BTW.
http://uk.ask.com/web?qsrc=1&o=0&l=d...econds&dm=ctry

I cut my between joist insulation boards an inch too small and filled
the gaps with canned foam. Then immediately put the second layer on
top weighed down with concrete blocks to stop the foam pushing them
up.

Main problem is any existing wiring/plumbing.

On 17/10/2011 21:17, Ghostrecon wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:22:23 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/10/2011 18:37, Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Fill all the existing space with cheap quilted insulation, and then lay
a PIR foam board insulation on top of the existing floor joists. Lay the
flooring directly on top of the insulation. No need for extra joists etc
(they would only add cold bridges through the insulation anyway). For
storage purposes the flooring on top only needs to protect the top layer
of the foam - so thin ply or even hardboard would probably do.

PIR foam boards are getting on for twice the effectiveness of fibreglass
quilt.

sounds like a good plan - looking at second& Co they have Kooltherm boards
- anybody know if they would be suitable ??

http://www.secureviewer.co/Secondsan...p?productid=48

They are PIR foam, but possibly without the foil face. Can't see that
being a problem for your application. The foam is quite dense and so
will easily take weight on top - especially if spread by the flooring.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17 Oct,
John Rumm wrote:

Fill all the existing space with cheap quilted insulation, and then lay
a PIR foam board insulation on top of the existing floor joists. Lay the
flooring directly on top of the insulation. No need for extra joists etc
(they would only add cold bridges through the insulation anyway). For
storage purposes the flooring on top only needs to protect the top layer
of the foam - so thin ply or even hardboard would probably do.

PIR foam boards are getting on for twice the effectiveness of fibreglass
quilt.

That's more or less what I did, and it has proved effective over the last
couple of winters. I used kingspan seconds from Ebay, but placed them under
existing T&G chipboard flooring which was already in place in the loft. The
bigest problen was clearing the junk from above the existing flooring to
allow it to slide along to put the kingspan underneath.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

Ghostrecon wrote:

I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load.

The centre area of my loft was already boarded with a mixture of
materials that had accumulated over the years.

I then covered this with two layers of Knauf space board
insulation,(1200 mm x 500 mm x 50 mm) with the joints staggered.

As I needed to hold everything down, and the insulation will dent
from point loads such as bony knees and storage box feet, I
covered it with hardboard (full sheets cut across into 500 mm
strips {plus off cuts} at B&Q) and screwed it all down to the
boarding using M6 x 120 mm woodscrews which were on offer at
CPC.

I was very pleased that the installation went exactly as planned.
I did drill pilot holes, but the screws would probably have
self-drilled.

The only slight problem, which became apparent after a few weeks,
is that (despite the fact that the hardboard spent some of the
autumn stored in the caravan, until I could get the job done) the
sheets have expanded slightly and bowed a little.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:55:02 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/10/2011 21:17, Ghostrecon wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:22:23 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/10/2011 18:37, Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Fill all the existing space with cheap quilted insulation, and then lay
a PIR foam board insulation on top of the existing floor joists. Lay the
flooring directly on top of the insulation. No need for extra joists etc
(they would only add cold bridges through the insulation anyway). For
storage purposes the flooring on top only needs to protect the top layer
of the foam - so thin ply or even hardboard would probably do.

PIR foam boards are getting on for twice the effectiveness of fibreglass
quilt.

sounds like a good plan - looking at second& Co they have Kooltherm boards
- anybody know if they would be suitable ??

http://www.secureviewer.co/Secondsan...p?productid=48

They are PIR foam, but possibly without the foil face. Can't see that
being a problem for your application. The foam is quite dense and so
will easily take weight on top - especially if spread by the flooring.

Thanks for that - so out of my 54m2 loft I can get about 18m2 storage with
100mm rockwool with 62mm pir board on top which I reckon is the equivalent
of 231mm of rockwool and then do the rest to 270mm depth of rockwool - um
total cost of insulation delivered about £180 does that sound reasonable?
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

On 18/10/2011 17:09, Ghostrecon wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:55:02 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/10/2011 21:17, Ghostrecon wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:22:23 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/10/2011 18:37, Ghostrecon wrote:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

Fill all the existing space with cheap quilted insulation, and then lay
a PIR foam board insulation on top of the existing floor joists. Lay the
flooring directly on top of the insulation. No need for extra joists etc
(they would only add cold bridges through the insulation anyway). For
storage purposes the flooring on top only needs to protect the top layer
of the foam - so thin ply or even hardboard would probably do.

PIR foam boards are getting on for twice the effectiveness of fibreglass
quilt.

sounds like a good plan - looking at second& Co they have Kooltherm boards
- anybody know if they would be suitable ??

http://www.secureviewer.co/Secondsan...p?productid=48

They are PIR foam, but possibly without the foil face. Can't see that
being a problem for your application. The foam is quite dense and so
will easily take weight on top - especially if spread by the flooring.

Thanks for that - so out of my 54m2 loft I can get about 18m2 storage with
100mm rockwool with 62mm pir board on top which I reckon is the equivalent
of 231mm of rockwool and then do the rest to 270mm depth of rockwool - um
total cost of insulation delivered about £180 does that sound reasonable?

Sounds ok. You will get a bit of extra insulation from the boarding and
any "stuff" you store on it as well.

If you work on say a nominal temperature difference of 10 degrees
averaged over the cold months, and assume the u value of the exiting 90
mm of quilt is 0.44[1] that means you currently loose heat at a rate of
54 * 10 * 0.44 = 237W.

Adding 62mm of PIR would give a total u value of 1/( 1/0.44 + 1/0.40 )
= 0.2 for that section. The 270mm of quilt works out about 0.14.

So the new heat loss would be 10 * (54 - 18) * 0.14 + 10 * 18 * 0.2 =
100W or thereabouts. So reducing the rate by 137W or about 3kWh a day.
That ought to pay back in under two years.

[1] Figures from http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Heat_loss


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Ghostrecon writes:
I need to sort out the insulation in the loft at the moment it only has
90mm thick. Unfortunately we need to use the loft for storage so its part
boarded with 18mm chipboard over the insulation - some fixed with many
scraps of board to spread the load. I know that the standard answer is to
lay joist across the existing ones and then insulate between these with
boards on top but these joist would need 150mm to get a decent amount of
insulation up there. This is likely to be expensive....

What would be the best alternative? are there any that would give a similar
thermal insulation value but still allow the storage. Loft area is about
54m^2 (6.6 x 8.2) with coldwater tank and central haeting header tank

I will b doing this myself so labour is cheap lol

One warning - you don't want a moisture barrier on top of breathable
insulation, as it will form a condensation surface which will eventually
wet the insulation and any timbers in it. Make sure there's a ventilated
gap between the top of the fibreglass and any solid boarding. Another
possibility might be using floorboards with gaps between them, but make
sure the stored items don't seal the gaps.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]