This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years old -
now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an intermittent fault
and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on reliability would be welcome, as
on the complexity of installing. How much of the kitchen & plumbing needs
to be rebuilt? (for instance)

Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's causing
that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In article ,
charles wrote:
This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years old
- now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an intermittent
fault and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on reliability would be
welcome, as on the complexity of installing. How much of the kitchen &
plumbing needs to be rebuilt? (for instance)

Did the same a few years ago. The old floorstander was replaced by a wall
mounted one - but since it was in a cupboard, disruption to other things
was a minimum. Generally most new condensers are smaller than older
boilers. Only addition was a cold water feed to it. As it is pressurised
rather than open vent with header tank as before. The flue of course is
different and smaller from the old BF terminal, so that needed bricking up
and a new hole made.

Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's causing
that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?

It can probably be fixed. Make and model will be needed. However, with the
constant escalation of fuel prices a more efficient boiler makes even more
sense.

--
*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

charles wrote:

This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years
old - now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an
intermittent fault and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on
reliability would be welcome, as on the complexity of installing. How
much of the kitchen & plumbing needs to be rebuilt? (for instance)

If you replace with a non-combi non-system condensing boiler (i.e. fed at
low pressure from a header tank in the loft) then the plumbing is almost
the same - gas in, water from and to rads and HW tank. Additionally you'll
have a condensate drain, which needs to go from the boiler into a waste
outlet or outside to a drain. The new boiler will be room sealed so ideally
should go on an outside wall.


Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's
causing that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion
inhibitor?


Is your pump working?

On Oct 14, 9:16*am, charles wrote:
This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. *My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years old *-
now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an intermittent fault
and SWMBO wants her warmth. *Comments on reliability would be welcome, as
on the complexity of installing. *How much of the kitchen & plumbing needs
to be rebuilt? (for instance) *

Fault is that it's tripping out. *This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. *Any idea what's causing
that boiling? *Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

The fault you describe and localised boiling could be down to a pump
on its way out or the boiler may need descaling. Since a new boiler
would require a chemical clean to the system anyway why not carry out
a chemical clean anyway the see if your problem has gone away? Have a
look into the pump as well before throwing mega bucks at what might be
a tens of pounds repair.

On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:00:24 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
charles wrote:
This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years old
- now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an intermittent
fault and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on reliability would be
welcome, as on the complexity of installing. How much of the kitchen &
plumbing needs to be rebuilt? (for instance)

Did the same a few years ago. The old floorstander was replaced by a wall
mounted one - but since it was in a cupboard, disruption to other things
was a minimum. Generally most new condensers are smaller than older
boilers. Only addition was a cold water feed to it. As it is pressurised
rather than open vent with header tank as before. The flue of course is
different and smaller from the old BF terminal, so that needed bricking up
and a new hole made.

And somewhere to drain the condensate is needed. Also condensing
boilers work best at lower temperatures so you may need to uprate your
radiators.

You can get heating only condensing boilers so you might not have to
convert a vented system to sealed if you don't want. However I much
prefer the latter.

Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's causing
that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?

It can probably be fixed. Make and model will be needed. However, with the
constant escalation of fuel prices a more efficient boiler makes even more
sense.

I'm usually of the opinion that repair is better than replacement. A
modern condensing boiler will be cheaper to run but they are far more
complex and, IMHO, not likely to last as long. Without a crystal ball
to predict fuel prices I can't say which option would be cheapest in
the long run.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
I'm usually of the opinion that repair is better than replacement. A
modern condensing boiler will be cheaper to run but they are far more
complex and, IMHO, not likely to last as long. Without a crystal ball
to predict fuel prices I can't say which option would be cheapest in
the long run.

It, of course, depends on how big your gas bill is. However, I can't
really see gas prices doing anything but increasing in the foreseeable
future.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

It, of course, depends on how big your gas bill is. However, I can't
really see gas prices doing anything but increasing in the foreseeable
future.


I don't believe there's been any fair comparison between a long-life
iron lump and the modern, relatively short lived, less reliable and
costly to maintain equivalent. No doubt they are better for the planet
but I'm not sure the pocket benefits like they say !

Andy C

On Oct 14, 10:47*am, cynic wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:16*am, charles wrote:

This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. *My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years old *-
now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an intermittent fault
and SWMBO wants her warmth. *Comments on reliability would be welcome, as
on the complexity of installing. *How much of the kitchen & plumbing needs
to be rebuilt? (for instance) *

Fault is that it's tripping out. *This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. *Any idea what's causing
that boiling? *Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

The fault you describe and localised boiling could be down to a pump
on its way out or the boiler may need descaling. Since a new boiler
would require a chemical clean to the system anyway why not carry out
a chemical clean anyway the see if your problem has gone away? Have a
look into the pump as well before throwing mega bucks at what might be
a tens of pounds repair.

Indeed, it sounds like it has to be either pump or a blockage, either
of which is far cheaper to resolve than a new boiler.


NT

In article ,
Andy Cap wrote:
I don't believe there's been any fair comparison between a long-life
iron lump and the modern, relatively short lived, less reliable and
costly to maintain equivalent. No doubt they are better for the planet
but I'm not sure the pocket benefits like they say !

Cast iron isn't the issue. SS heat exchangers have a long life too.
Just how long the extra electronics which are part of a modern boiler last
is down to design. Boilers built down to a cut throat price are likely to
be just as reliable as any other similarly engineered product. ;-(

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Scion wrote:
charles wrote:

This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years
old - now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an
intermittent fault and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on
reliability would be welcome, as on the complexity of installing. How
much of the kitchen & plumbing needs to be rebuilt? (for instance)

If you replace with a non-combi non-system condensing boiler (i.e. fed at
low pressure from a header tank in the loft) then the plumbing is almost
the same - gas in, water from and to rads and HW tank. Additionally
you'll have a condensate drain, which needs to go from the boiler into a
waste outlet or outside to a drain. The new boiler will be room sealed
so ideally should go on an outside wall.


Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's
causing that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion
inhibitor?


Is your pump working?

yes, the pump is working - when the boiler trips out, I can hear the water
being pumped round.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In article
, cynic
wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:16 am, charles wrote:
This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years
old - now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an
intermittent fault and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on reliability
would be welcome, as on the complexity of installing. How much of the
kitchen & plumbing needs to be rebuilt? (for instance)

Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's causing
that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?

-- From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

The fault you describe and localised boiling could be down to a pump on
its way out or the boiler may need descaling. Since a new boiler would
require a chemical clean to the system anyway why not carry out a
chemical clean anyway the see if your problem has gone away? Have a look
into the pump as well before throwing mega bucks at what might be a tens
of pounds repair.

I'm sure the pump is fine - so, descaling could well be the answer. I do
hear tehn odd air bubble in the boiler area from time to time. Perhaps the
system is bringing in air through a slightly weepy rad valve? After a
descale, I should use a leak seal agent?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In article ,
charles writes:
In article
, cynic
wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:16 am, charles wrote:
This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years
old - now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an
intermittent fault and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on reliability
would be welcome, as on the complexity of installing. How much of the
kitchen & plumbing needs to be rebuilt? (for instance)

Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's causing
that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?

-- From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

The fault you describe and localised boiling could be down to a pump on
its way out or the boiler may need descaling. Since a new boiler would
require a chemical clean to the system anyway why not carry out a
chemical clean anyway the see if your problem has gone away? Have a look
into the pump as well before throwing mega bucks at what might be a tens
of pounds repair.

I'm sure the pump is fine - so, descaling could well be the answer. I do

It really does sound like a flow problem - pump become ineffective
or blockage.

What temperature is the boiler set to, and does it get better if
you turn it down?

hear tehn odd air bubble in the boiler area from time to time. Perhaps the
system is bringing in air through a slightly weepy rad valve? After a
descale, I should use a leak seal agent?

Is it a vented or sealed system?
Is the water changed or topped up often (has it leaked at some point)?
Inhibitor?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:


It really does sound like a flow problem - pump become ineffective
or blockage.

What temperature is the boiler set to, and does it get better if
you turn it down?

That doesn't make any difference - tried that in the past. It has been
playing up for over a year, but hardly at all during the summer when it
only heats the hot water (valve isolated). So perhaps sludge is
circulating from the rads in the colder weather.

hear the odd air bubble in the boiler area from time to time. Perhaps
the system is bringing in air through a slightly weepy rad valve?
After a descale, I should use a leak seal agent?

Is it a vented or sealed system?

vented


Is the water changed or topped up often (has it leaked at some point)?
Inhibitor?

I replaced that last time I had to changed a valve. I've always used
Fernox before, but the place I went to only had Sentinel. I cabn'y believe
that's teh problem, but perhaps it's not as concentrated and therefore not
doing its job.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In article ,
charles writes:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:


It really does sound like a flow problem - pump become ineffective
or blockage.

What temperature is the boiler set to, and does it get better if
you turn it down?

That doesn't make any difference - tried that in the past. It has been
playing up for over a year, but hardly at all during the summer when it
only heats the hot water (valve isolated). So perhaps sludge is
circulating from the rads in the colder weather.

In that case, it sounds like the heating circuit is blocked, and
the hot water circuit is OK.

Has someone closed down radiator valves, and what forms the bypass
circuit? Has your isolating valve really opened?

Does the system have a mid-position valve to select HW/both/Heating?
If so, does it work OK when there's demand for both HW and heating?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 14/10/2011 14:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In articleB_2dnZgmS70gsAXTnZ2dnUVZ7tudnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk,
Andy wrote:
I don't believe there's been any fair comparison between a long-life
iron lump and the modern, relatively short lived, less reliable and
costly to maintain equivalent. No doubt they are better for the planet
but I'm not sure the pocket benefits like they say !

Cast iron isn't the issue. SS heat exchangers have a long life too.
Just how long the extra electronics which are part of a modern boiler last
is down to design. Boilers built down to a cut throat price are likely to
be just as reliable as any other similarly engineered product. ;-(

Indeed. Also the larger your bills then the quicker the potential pay back.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
charles writes:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:


It really does sound like a flow problem - pump become ineffective
or blockage.

What temperature is the boiler set to, and does it get better if
you turn it down?

That doesn't make any difference - tried that in the past. It has been
playing up for over a year, but hardly at all during the summer when it
only heats the hot water (valve isolated). So perhaps sludge is
circulating from the rads in the colder weather.

In that case, it sounds like the heating circuit is blocked, and
the hot water circuit is OK.

The radiators all get hot.

Has someone closed down radiator valves, and what forms the bypass
circuit? Has your isolating valve really opened?

the bypass circuit is two fold. One close to the boiler (as per
manufacturer's installation instructions) and another is simply an
uncontrolled radiator. Possibly - 23 years after fitting - the one near
the boiler isn't working as it should. Perhaps I should fully open the
valve and then reclose to the correct point.


Does the system have a mid-position valve to select HW/both/Heating?
If so, does it work OK when there's demand for both HW and heating?

Two separate valves.
But this not a permanent fault; it can go for days (weeks sometimes)
working quite normally and then suddenly the boiler trips. Today was teh
first time I've been ithe room when it happened and heared the
bubbling/kettling noise. I've put a jar of Sentinel System Cleaner in, and
I'll drain it in the middle of next week. Then I'll see what happens.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In article ,
charles wrote:
But this not a permanent fault; it can go for days (weeks sometimes)
working quite normally and then suddenly the boiler trips. Today was
teh first time I've been ithe room when it happened and heared the
bubbling/kettling noise. I've put a jar of Sentinel System Cleaner in,
and I'll drain it in the middle of next week. Then I'll see what
happens.

What make boiler? Is there a pump over-run circuit? Even in a 'perfect'
system, if the pump stops while the boiler is firing it may boil before
shutting down. So you'd normally arrange for the pump to carry on running
for a short while after the boiler is told to stop.

--
*Many hamsters only blink one eye at a time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , charles
wrote:
But this not a permanent fault; it can go for days (weeks sometimes)
working quite normally and then suddenly the boiler trips. Today was
teh first time I've been ithe room when it happened and heared the
bubbling/kettling noise. I've put a jar of Sentinel System Cleaner in,
and I'll drain it in the middle of next week. Then I'll see what
happens.

What make boiler?

Glowworm

Is there a pump over-run circuit?

Of course. It's in the buit-in controller.

Even in a 'perfect' system, if the pump stops while the boiler is firing
it may boil before shutting down. So you'd normally arrange for the pump
to carry on running for a short while after the boiler is told to stop.

Of course. Remember this is a fault that appeared after 21 years of
sucessfull operation, so I doubt very much that's it's a system design
fault.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Oct 14, 2:15*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Andy Cap wrote:

I don't believe there's been any fair comparison between a long-life
iron lump and the modern, relatively short lived, less reliable and
costly to maintain equivalent. No doubt they are better for the planet
but I'm not sure the pocket benefits like they say !

Cast iron isn't the issue. SS heat exchangers have a long life too.
Just how long the extra electronics which are part of a modern boiler last
is down to design. Boilers built down to a cut throat price are likely to
be just as reliable as any other similarly engineered product. ;-(

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Indeed, I guess the next best thing one could do would be to get a
simple heat only boiler with a SS heat exchanger (Vaillant, Viessmann
etc) and then have all external controls, external pump, external
valves, external EV etc.

In message , charles
writes
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , charles
wrote:
But this not a permanent fault; it can go for days (weeks sometimes)
working quite normally and then suddenly the boiler trips. Today was
teh first time I've been ithe room when it happened and heared the
bubbling/kettling noise. I've put a jar of Sentinel System Cleaner in,
and I'll drain it in the middle of next week. Then I'll see what
happens.

What make boiler?

Glowworm

Blood out of a stone ...

what model?


Is there a pump over-run circuit?

Of course. It's in the buit-in controller.

Which controller ?

21 years old? Not necessarily

does the pump overrun actually work?



Even in a 'perfect' system, if the pump stops while the boiler is firing
it may boil before shutting down. So you'd normally arrange for the pump
to carry on running for a short while after the boiler is told to stop.

Of course. Remember this is a fault that appeared after 21 years of
sucessfull operation, so I doubt very much that's it's a system design
fault.


--
geoff

In article ,
charles wrote:
What make boiler?

Glowworm

Is there a pump over-run circuit?

Of course. It's in the buit-in controller.

OK

Even in a 'perfect' system, if the pump stops while the boiler is
firing it may boil before shutting down. So you'd normally arrange for
the pump to carry on running for a short while after the boiler is
told to stop.

Of course. Remember this is a fault that appeared after 21 years of
sucessfull operation, so I doubt very much that's it's a system design
fault.

No - but is it working? Is the pump actually running when the kettling
occurs?

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
What make boiler?

Glowworm

Is there a pump over-run circuit?

Of course. It's in the buit-in controller.

OK

Even in a 'perfect' system, if the pump stops while the boiler is
firing it may boil before shutting down. So you'd normally arrange for
the pump to carry on running for a short while after the boiler is
told to stop.

Of course. Remember this is a fault that appeared after 21 years of
sucessfull operation, so I doubt very much that's it's a system design
fault.

No - but is it working? Is the pump actually running when the kettling
occurs?

yes - I can hear it.

Since pouring in some system cleaning fluid late yesterday afternoon, the
system has been quiet. Maybe that's all it needed.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Oct 15, 4:56*am, charles wrote:
In article ,
* *Dave Plowman (News) wrote:





In article ,
* *charles wrote:
What make boiler?
Glowworm
Is there a pump over-run circuit?
Of course. It's in the buit-in controller.
OK
Even in a 'perfect' system, if the pump stops while the boiler is
firing it may boil before shutting down. So you'd normally arrange for
the pump to carry on running for a short while after the boiler is
told to stop.
Of course. *Remember this is a fault that appeared after 21 years of
sucessfull operation, so I doubt very much that's it's a system design
fault.
No - but is it working? Is the pump actually running when the kettling
occurs?

yes - I can hear it.

Since pouring in some system cleaning fluid late yesterday afternoon, the
system has been quiet. *Maybe that's all it needed.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

System restorer can have magical results. I suspect your system has
slowly developed a sludge problem which has finally restricted the
flow through the radiator circuits to critical level. Lockshield
valves being adjusted to regulate flow to balance the heat
distribution are often where this manifests itself. While your
cleanser is still in the system I would tackle each one in turn,
starting with the radiator you mentioned as showing a problem, turn it
fully closed noting exactly how many turns or part turns it requires,
then open it up fully and allow high flow through that radiator and
pipes for about half a day and restore the lockshield to its original
setting. Move on to the next radiator and repeat. On completion of the
exercise drain down from hot, refill and dose with fresh inhibitor. I
prefer Sentinel to Fernox but ymmv

In article
,
cynic wrote:
Since pouring in some system cleaning fluid late yesterday afternoon,
the system has been quiet. Maybe that's all it needed.

System restorer can have magical results. I suspect your system has
slowly developed a sludge problem which has finally restricted the
flow through the radiator circuits to critical level.

Don't see how if it's always had inhibitor - which I'd guess Charles has
been careful with.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"charles" wrote in message
...
This is probably not totally DIY, but has anyone got any comments on
condensing boilers. My present (old fashioned) one is over 20 years
ld -
now that was a DIY install - but is suffering from an intermittent fault
and SWMBO wants her warmth. Comments on reliability would be welcome, as
on the complexity of installing. How much of the kitchen & plumbing needs
to be rebuilt? (for instance)

Fault is that it's tripping out. This morning I could hear localised
boiling within the boiler and then it cut out. Any idea what's causing
that boiling? Do I simply need to add some more corrosion inhibitor?


That sounds like one of two causes. A faulty circulation or you have sludge
build up in the boiler.

If the first, check power to the pump, if there is power, replace pump. If
there is no power then suspect a faulty microswitch in one of your motorised
valves.

If the latter, you can buy sludge remover and power flushing gear to flush
the boiler with.....

Stephen.

On Oct 15, 11:33*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article

SNIP

flow through the radiator circuits to critical level.

Don't see how if it's always had inhibitor - which I'd guess Charles has
been careful with.


The use of inhibitor is supposed to prevent corrosion but in an old
system which has developed the odd pinhole allowing air ingress the
useful content can be "consumed" and leave the system prone to
oxidation and/or biological growth in the head tank which can be drawn
into the system following a partial or full draindown for such as a
rad valve change. Its a creeping disease which becomes evident when it
passes a certain point.

In article
,
cynic wrote:
On Oct 15, 11:33 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article

SNIP

flow through the radiator circuits to critical level.

Don't see how if it's always had inhibitor - which I'd guess Charles has
been careful with.


The use of inhibitor is supposed to prevent corrosion but in an old
system which has developed the odd pinhole allowing air ingress the
useful content can be "consumed" and leave the system prone to
oxidation and/or biological growth in the head tank which can be drawn
into the system following a partial or full draindown for such as a
rad valve change. Its a creeping disease which becomes evident when it
passes a certain point.

Older systems often have an open header tank. And given it allows for
expansion, some air will always be present in the circulating water. If
the inhibitor has been kept up to strength, virtually no corrosion should
take place.
Of course if the system is leaking badly so constantly taking on fresh
water - or pumping over all the time - things can be different.

--
*Ever stop to think and forget to start again?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.