I've decided to get rid of the UPVC front door in my house and replace it
with a hardwood one. I have just acquired a suitable hardwood door, and now
I need to make a frame for it.

I've made internal door frames and fitted internal doors before, but never
a front door. Is the process the same, or is a different frame-making mthod
required, such as making it from hardwood moulding?

Unless I cut 3" off the width of the new door, there will only be about
1.5" each side to accommodate the frame. That would be no problem with an
internal door, but what about a front door?

Is hardwood generally used for front door frames? Any advice on methodology
would be much appreciated.

TIA

Al

AL_n wrote:
I've decided to get rid of the UPVC front door in my house and
replace it with a hardwood one. I have just acquired a suitable
hardwood door, and now I need to make a frame for it.

I've made internal door frames and fitted internal doors before, but
never a front door. Is the process the same, or is a different
frame-making mthod required, such as making it from hardwood moulding?

Al, there certainly is a difference to making a front door frame to an
internal one.

1 Timber sizes are different (4"x2" rebated and moulded - as opposed to
6"x11/4 PSE).
2 You will need to used through haunched mortice and tenons on the joints
(as opposed to simple housings)
3 You may also need to fit a sill to the frame.

Unless I cut 3" off the width of the new door, there will only be
about
1.5" each side to accommodate the frame. That would be no problem
with an internal door, but what about a front door?

You will reduce the jambs to about half their size doing that - seriously
weakening the door.

*WARNING*

If you have to cut 3" off the door to fit the existing frame, then it may be
better to get the correct sized door to fit the opening - as the *minimum*
thickness/width for a front door frame should 4"x2" rebated and moulded PSE
(for security etc).

You should *NOT* reduce the door jambs by more than 1/2" (if you're lucky)
on a door -- unless it constructed using through mortice and tenon joints.

If the door joints are dowelled or stopped mortice and tenon, then my advice
would be to forget cutting that amount off.

Is hardwood generally used for front door frames? Any advice on
methodology would be much appreciated.

You can use both hardwood and softwood to suit the type of door that you
wish to use.

As for methology, there are several ways to do that - and I would advise
that you do a little research on the diy wikki (or other sites) for more
information as a couple of sketches/drawings are worth many words here.

(I don't visit the wikki site myself, but someone will be along to help you
there).

You could also pop down to the local 'sheds' where they may have some on
display - and once you've seen the principle (and your handy with tools)
then the job itself is reasonably easy if you take a bit of care.

Hope this is of some help

Cash

On 01/09/2011 15:59, Cash wrote:

As for methology, there are several ways to do that - and I would advise
that you do a little research on the diy wikki (or other sites) for more
information as a couple of sketches/drawings are worth many words here.

(I don't visit the wikki site myself, but someone will be along to help you
there).

Actually I don't think we have anything in the wiki on making external
door frames. About the closest there at the moment are the articles
making framed ledge and braced doors, and hanging interior doors.

What is your preferred construction method on these Cash?

(I can draw it up for a wiki page)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 01/09/2011 15:59, Cash wrote:

As for methology, there are several ways to do that - and I would
advise that you do a little research on the diy wikki (or other
sites) for more information as a couple of sketches/drawings are
worth many words here. (I don't visit the wikki site myself, but someone
will be along to
help you there).

Actually I don't think we have anything in the wiki on making external
door frames. About the closest there at the moment are the articles
making framed ledge and braced doors, and hanging interior doors.

What is your preferred construction method on these Cash?

(I can draw it up for a wiki page)



John,

As an analagy,

If you ignore the T&G boards, middle and bottom rails,Then the construction
method is similar to that of a framed ledged and braced door with a few
exceptions.

1 The the fact that there is often a moulded wooden sill into which the
two door jams are morticed.

2 If you have rebated and ovolo moulded stock for the frames, a gouge is
needed to form the joint between the ovolos of the jambs and head (the jambs
just sit on the sill) - or you can play around with mitres.

3 And obviously the distance between the inside of the rebates has to be
at least the width and height of the door (ignore any cutting for now) to
get a reasonable fit.

Other than that. on simple front door frame (with no side panels or glass
etc) then generally, if you can make the frame for a FLB door - then it
really a simple step for a front door frame, if a bit of thought and care is
taken.

For those that suggest making the frame out of plain PSE and then using a
router to form the rebates and any moulding - remember that this method is
OK, providing that you do all that before fitting the sill (it makes life
easier).

Sorry for being so brief John, but as I said before, a few pictures (or a
decent drawing) speaks louder than words in this case [1] [2 ]- and when
things quieten down in the household over the next few weeks, I may well sit
down and do a few simple drawings that you could use.

[1] There is a problem also, where the making of such frames are classed
as a basic job for apprentices to do (and usually taught to them by the
skilled chippies within a few hours) that text books don't seem to give this
basic info - certainly the ones that I have don't (mind you, they are as
ancient as me, and things may have altered now).

[2] And surviving a few strokes has caused a problem with my patience of
sitting down and putting thoughts into words to get a fairly long
description that someone (other than me) could readily understand. :-)

Cash

"Cash" wrote in
:

Subject: Making a frame for a hardwood front door.
From: "Cash"
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

AL_n wrote:
I've decided to get rid of the UPVC front door in my house and
replace it with a hardwood one. I have just acquired a suitable
hardwood door, and now I need to make a frame for it.

I've made internal door frames and fitted internal doors before, but
never a front door. Is the process the same, or is a different
frame-making mthod required, such as making it from hardwood
moulding?

Al, there certainly is a difference to making a front door frame to an
internal one.

1 Timber sizes are different (4"x2" rebated and moulded - as
opposed to 6"x11/4 PSE).
2 You will need to used through haunched mortice and tenons on the
joints (as opposed to simple housings)

Thanks... Is there an alternative joint which could be used as a next-best-
option for a DIY-er armed only with a router. circular saw, chisels etc?

TIA

Al

AL_n wrote:
"Cash" wrote in
:

Subject: Making a frame for a hardwood front door.
From: "Cash"
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

AL_n wrote:
I've decided to get rid of the UPVC front door in my house and
replace it with a hardwood one. I have just acquired a suitable
hardwood door, and now I need to make a frame for it.

I've made internal door frames and fitted internal doors before, but
never a front door. Is the process the same, or is a different
frame-making mthod required, such as making it from hardwood
moulding?

Al, there certainly is a difference to making a front door frame to
an internal one.

1 Timber sizes are different (4"x2" rebated and moulded - as
opposed to 6"x11/4 PSE).
2 You will need to used through haunched mortice and tenons on the
joints (as opposed to simple housings)

Thanks... Is there an alternative joint which could be used as a
next-best- option for a DIY-er armed only with a router. circular
saw, chisels etc?

Al,

If you use rebated and moulded timber (which you really should for security)
then there are no real alternatives to the joints.

You could at a pinch (if you are relatively handy) use 4"x2" PSE (Planed
Square Edged) timber using through Mortise and Tenon joints [1] ( which are
simple to do with care), and then once you've made the frame, use router to
form the rebates and mouldings.

I would strongly advise against using plain PSE and then nailing on
doorstops to form the rebates as this would almost certainly invalidate your
house insurance if there was a break-in that involved the removal of the
stops to get at the lock bolt etc.

If you feel that you are not confident enough to do the work as it should be
done, then I would suggest that you contact a local joinery shop or builder
to make the frame for you, and then fit it yourself - this would give you
far better security than simpler methods (important on the main entrance to
any property).

*OR*, if you live near to a local college that runs building courses, ask
the joinery lecturer there if he could get one of the apprentices (trainees
these days I suppose they call 'em) to make you one for the cost of the
timber - good experience for the little blighters. :-)

[1] Using plain PSE, you could use simple housing joints (if there is no
sill on the bottom of the frame), but these are very weak compared to the
tried and trusted mortise and tenon - and as a very old chippie, I wouldn't
be at all happy using that joint in this situation.

Hope this helps in some way.


Cash

On 04/09/2011 20:02, AL_n wrote:
wrote in
:

Subject: Making a frame for a hardwood front door.
From:
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

AL_n wrote:
I've decided to get rid of the UPVC front door in my house and
replace it with a hardwood one. I have just acquired a suitable
hardwood door, and now I need to make a frame for it.

I've made internal door frames and fitted internal doors before, but
never a front door. Is the process the same, or is a different
frame-making mthod required, such as making it from hardwood
moulding?

Al, there certainly is a difference to making a front door frame to an
internal one.

1 Timber sizes are different (4"x2" rebated and moulded - as
opposed to 6"x11/4 PSE).
2 You will need to used through haunched mortice and tenons on the
joints (as opposed to simple housings)

Thanks... Is there an alternative joint which could be used as a next-best-
option for a DIY-er armed only with a router. circular saw, chisels etc?

It sounds like you have all the tools you need for a decent mortice and
tenon job... I will see if I get a mo later to draw it up for you.

(there is a way you could avoid the joints with long screws down/up
through top and bottom rails into the jambs, but it would be a bodge in
comparison)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local chippie
then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make the frame, if I
supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get an idea of a fair price
to be charged for the job.)

Al

AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local chippie
then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make the
frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get an
idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)

Al

Al,

If done in a fully equipped joiners shop, a simple rebated and ovolo moulded
frame from stock moulded timber (with no sill, two mortise and tenon joints,
setting out, cutting out, assembly and finishing) would take around 11/2
hours at the most - (plus a bit of drying time for the glue). Add a bit on
if a sill is required.

If the job is being done entirely by hand (no machinery available), then
roughly about a mornings work.

BTW, if you get a joiner to make the frame, give him the *exact* sizes of
the opening[1] and door, and ask him to make the necessary allowances to
enable the frame and door to be fitted with the minimal of cutting and
planing (you're looking for a two pence thickness sized gap between frame
and door on the top and both sides, the gap at the door bottom is dependent
on whatever waterproofing method you use there).

[1] Check the distance between the two walls, head and floor of the door
opening for, width, height, plumb and parallel (along with any obstacles
such as pipes and cables)!

Basic info I know, but you'd be surprised how many 'customers' *expect* you
to have a crystal ball as part of your toolkit - or come back and complain
that the joiner has made the frame wrong when important
information has been 'forgotten).

All great fun at the sharp end!

Cash

On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local chippie
then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make the frame, if I
supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get an idea of a fair price
to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you prefer
cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder to set out
joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very simple[1], and
doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges, but
feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make
them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and have
not got one yet).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local chippie
then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make the frame, if I
supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get an idea of a fair price
to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you prefer
cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder to set out
joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very simple[1], and
doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges, but
feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make them
yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and have not got one yet).



Hi John,

Great article. Respect for taking the time. Sketchup illustrations there?

One suggestion you may want to add is to leave 'horns' on the top rail and
bottom cill when measuring up and setting out the frame so that the
assembled unit has 50-75mm of timber protruding horizontally from all four
corners. This can help with installation into 'rough' openings where the
sides are not perfectly perpendicular or material has fallen away during
removal of the old frame. The jambs can then be 'packed out' where required
and fixed through the packing. A lot of old frames were fitted with 'horns'
on them so there is often a recess left in the (brick) wall fabric. I'd not
required when it comes to installation the horns on the new frame can
simply be sawn off or cut down to suit. They also help protect the frame
during construction, storage and transportation.

Regards,
Deano

--
What else are opposable thumbs for? Get to me at
masterfix{at}btinternet{dot}com

On 06/09/2011 07:18, Dean Heighington wrote:
John wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local chippie
then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make the frame, if I
supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get an idea of a fair price
to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you prefer
cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder to set out
joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very simple[1], and
doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges, but
feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make them
yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and have not got one yet).



Hi John,

Great article. Respect for taking the time. Sketchup illustrations there?

One suggestion you may want to add is to leave 'horns' on the top rail and
bottom cill when measuring up and setting out the frame so that the
assembled unit has 50-75mm of timber protruding horizontally from all four
corners. This can help with installation into 'rough' openings where the
sides are not perfectly perpendicular or material has fallen away during
removal of the old frame. The jambs can then be 'packed out' where required
and fixed through the packing. A lot of old frames were fitted with 'horns'
on them so there is often a recess left in the (brick) wall fabric. I'd not
required when it comes to installation the horns on the new frame can
simply be sawn off or cut down to suit. They also help protect the frame
during construction, storage and transportation.

Yes, very good point, and well made. Something I do normally do myself,
since as you say, it can make it easier to do. I glossed over it to make
it quicker to describe at the time, but I will add it shortly.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/09/2011 07:18, Dean Heighington wrote:
John wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local chippie
then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make the frame, if I
supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get an idea of a fair price
to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you prefer
cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder to set out
joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very simple[1], and
doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges, but
feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make them
yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and have not got one yet).



Hi John,

Great article. Respect for taking the time. Sketchup illustrations there?

Sorry, forgot that bit. Yup sketchup... a very quick tool for that sort
of thing.

(I spent about 3/4s of the total production time doing the drawing,
capturing the 2D shots, and then the cropping and outputting web
optimised piccies in photoshop. The remaining bit; lobbing into the wiki
article and throwing some words at it.

Total time about 1.5 hours.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local
chippie then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make
the frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get
an idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you prefer
cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder to set
out joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very
simple[1], and doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges, but
feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make
them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and have
not got one yet).


John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline gives the
gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the mortise and tenons
have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the grain' rather than with the
grain.

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are needed to
make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable to form the
'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of the tenon exposed
if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and cill to ease the fitting
and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the 'short
grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have been formed by
routing after the frame has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Cash

"Cash" wrote in
:

If done in a fully equipped joiners shop, a simple rebated and ovolo
moulded frame from stock moulded timber (with no sill, two mortise and
tenon joints, setting out, cutting out, assembly and finishing) would
take around 11/2 hours at the most - (plus a bit of drying time for
the glue). Add a bit on if a sill is required.

If the job is being done entirely by hand (no machinery available),
then roughly about a mornings work.


Thanks for the help.

Al

"Cash" wrote:

John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline gives the
gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the mortise and tenons
have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the grain' rather than with the
grain.

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are needed to
make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable to form the
'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of the tenon exposed
if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and cill to ease the fitting
and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the 'short
grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have been formed by
routing after the frame has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Cash

Hi Cash,

I think a simple case of error in texture mapping in Sketchup is the cause
here... I don't think John is suggesting one actually attempts to buy
timber in this format... It'd have to have come from a very big tree

But, well spotted...
And back to the drawing board John (literally)


--
What else are opposable thumbs for? Get to me at
masterfix{at}btinternet{dot}com

On 06/09/2011 22:27, Cash wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local
chippie then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make
the frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get
an idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you prefer
cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder to set
out joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very
simple[1], and doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges, but
feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make
them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and have
not got one yet).


John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline gives the
gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the mortise and tenons
have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the grain' rather than with the
grain.

Not quite sure what you mean here... are you just referring to the "wood
texture" that I had applied? Yes I agree that is wrong for the verticals
- but is just how the program chose to orient the texture. I will see if
I can recolour it better however.

Or are you referring to the front to back orientation of the tenon
rather than doing say a pair of small left to right tenons?

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are needed to
make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable to form the
'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of the tenon exposed
if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and cill to ease the fitting

I actually set the whole tenon back from the outside edge (even when cut
without a horn), so at no point should it be exposed.

and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the 'short
grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have been formed by
routing after the frame has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Not quite, but with clarification I am sure it will be! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I know bad form replying to myself, but:

On 06/09/2011 22:27, Cash wrote:

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline
gives the
gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the mortise and
tenons
have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the grain' rather than
with the
grain.

Not quite sure what you mean here... are you just referring to the "wood
texture" that I had applied? Yes I agree that is wrong for the verticals
- but is just how the program chose to orient the texture. I will see if
I can recolour it better however.

Or are you referring to the front to back orientation of the tenon
rather than doing say a pair of small left to right tenons?

On reflection, I expect cash is referring to the fact that the mortice
as drawn would have its long side cut across the width of the rail,
rather than along its length. If that is the case, then indeed, mea
culpa. (While attempting to reduce the number of M&T joints to the
minimum I turned around the normal pair, and did one in depth without
thinking of the implications of cutting it. Ok with a morticer, but less
attractive if using drill and chisel).

Have a look at:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...rientation.jpg

The right hand one is as was, middle with two through tenons, oriented
in the other direction, and the left like the middle but with haunches
that would have an edge exposed if you did trim the horn flush.

Do you prefer any of those?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dean Heighington wrote:
"Cash" wrote:

John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline
gives the gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the
mortise and tenons have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the
grain' rather than with the grain.

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are
needed to make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable
to form the 'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of
the tenon exposed if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and
cill to ease the fitting and weakening the entire structure - I
would also suggest that the 'short grain' around the joint areas
(left when the rebates have been formed by routing after the frame
has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Cash

Hi Cash,

I think a simple case of error in texture mapping in Sketchup is the
cause here... I don't think John is suggesting one actually attempts
to buy timber in this format... It'd have to have come from a very
big tree

But, well spotted...
And back to the drawing board John (literally)


Dean,

The problem is that the mortise should be turned 90 degrees so that its
runs parallel (Longitudinal) with the grain of the frame head - and not
across it. The tenons can then be cut to suit.

As for very big trees, as a very old apprenticed chippie, and having made
and fitted many door frames, I'm not quite sure what you mean here.

Cash

John Rumm wrote:
On 06/09/2011 22:27, Cash wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local
chippie then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make
the frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get
an idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you
prefer cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder
to set out joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very
simple[1], and doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges,
but feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make
them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and
have not got one yet).


John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline
gives the gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the
mortise and tenons have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the
grain' rather than with the grain.

Not quite sure what you mean here... are you just referring to the
"wood texture" that I had applied? Yes I agree that is wrong for the
verticals - but is just how the program chose to orient the texture.
I will see if I can recolour it better however.

Or are you referring to the front to back orientation of the tenon
rather than doing say a pair of small left to right tenons?

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are
needed to make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable
to form the 'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of
the tenon exposed if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and
cill to ease the fitting

I actually set the whole tenon back from the outside edge (even when
cut without a horn), so at no point should it be exposed.

and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the
'short grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have
been formed by routing after the frame has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Not quite, but with clarification I am sure it will be! ;-)

Sorry about that John, it didn't make a lot of sense to me when I re-read
what I posted last night - the old quack has supplied some rather strong
pills lately, and they seem to affect me in some rather strange ways.

The beggar wouldn't prescribe my preferred medication - two tots (large) of
bourbon once a night, to be taken with a mixer (small). LOL

Right, I have have seen your new link, and the relevant drawings are the
left hand and middle ones. These are the nearest to what is required - but
you have too many tenons on them, one per joint is sufficient on that size
of timber.

The mortices in heads and sills should always be cut parallel (or
longitudinal) with the grain - never across the grain, as this gives the
greatesy strength and makes things easier when you have to offset the
mortice to accommodate the rebate and moulding.

What I have done, is dug up an old text book that shows a doorframe head
section, complete with mortice and tenon joint and showing the rebate and
joint offset from the centre of the head - a scan of this drawing has been
posted to www.tinpic.com and can be seen using the following URL ---
http://i51.tinypic.com/kaqjp3.jpg

Cash

On 07/09/2011 21:21, Cash wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 06/09/2011 22:27, Cash wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local
chippie then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make
the frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get
an idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you
prefer cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder
to set out joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very
simple[1], and doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges,
but feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make
them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and
have not got one yet).


John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline
gives the gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the
mortise and tenons have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the
grain' rather than with the grain.

Not quite sure what you mean here... are you just referring to the
"wood texture" that I had applied? Yes I agree that is wrong for the
verticals - but is just how the program chose to orient the texture.
I will see if I can recolour it better however.

Or are you referring to the front to back orientation of the tenon
rather than doing say a pair of small left to right tenons?

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are
needed to make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable
to form the 'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of
the tenon exposed if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and
cill to ease the fitting

I actually set the whole tenon back from the outside edge (even when
cut without a horn), so at no point should it be exposed.

and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the
'short grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have
been formed by routing after the frame has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Not quite, but with clarification I am sure it will be! ;-)

Sorry about that John, it didn't make a lot of sense to me when I re-read
what I posted last night - the old quack has supplied some rather strong
pills lately, and they seem to affect me in some rather strange ways.

The beggar wouldn't prescribe my preferred medication - two tots (large) of
bourbon once a night, to be taken with a mixer (small). LOL

Yup nuisance like that aren't they ;-)

(still with prescription prices, its cheaper to buy your own whisky if
doing it by the tot!)

Right, I have have seen your new link, and the relevant drawings are the
left hand and middle ones. These are the nearest to what is required - but
you have too many tenons on them, one per joint is sufficient on that size
of timber.

I probably over drew it a bit by using 4x2 anyway - still depends on how
chunky your door I suppose.

The mortices in heads and sills should always be cut parallel (or
longitudinal) with the grain - never across the grain, as this gives the
greatesy strength and makes things easier when you have to offset the
mortice to accommodate the rebate and moulding.

What I have done, is dug up an old text book that shows a doorframe head
section, complete with mortice and tenon joint and showing the rebate and
joint offset from the centre of the head - a scan of this drawing has been
posted to www.tinpic.com and can be seen using the following URL ---
http://i51.tinypic.com/kaqjp3.jpg

Yup can soon draw that... (nice illustration of a tapered mortice for
wedged tenons as well by the way).

I note lots of commercial frames, don't seem to bother with the haunches
these days - I presume because that would be another machining operation
after running the ends of the jambs past the spindle moulder to profile
the tenon?

Anyway, I have had a fiddle:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

Managed to get the grain texture running in the right direction, drew it
with haunches as standard, and twiddled the M&T joints round 90 degrees.

Anything else worth adding?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 8, 12:40*am, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/09/2011 21:21, Cash wrote:



John Rumm wrote:
On 06/09/2011 22:27, Cash wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local
chippie then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make
the frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get
an idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you
prefer cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder
to set out joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very
simple[1], and doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges,
but feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make
them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and
have not got one yet).

John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline
gives the gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the
mortise and tenons have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the
grain' rather than with the grain.

Not quite sure what you mean here... are you just referring to the
"wood texture" that I had applied? Yes I agree that is wrong for the
verticals - but is just how the program chose to orient the texture.
I will see if I can recolour it better however.

Or are you referring to the front to back orientation of the tenon
rather than doing say a pair of small left to right tenons?

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are
needed to make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable
to form the 'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of
the tenon exposed if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and
cill to ease the fitting

I actually set the whole tenon back from the outside edge (even when
cut without a horn), so at no point should it be exposed.

and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the
'short grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have
been formed by routing after the frame has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Not quite, but with clarification I am sure it will be! ;-)

Sorry about that John, it didn't make a lot of sense to me when I re-read
what I posted last night - the old quack has supplied some rather strong
pills lately, and they seem to affect me in some rather strange ways.

The beggar wouldn't prescribe my preferred medication - two tots (large) of
bourbon once a night, to be taken with a mixer (small). *LOL

Yup nuisance like that aren't they ;-)

(still with prescription prices, its cheaper to buy your own whisky if
doing it by the tot!)

Right, I have have seen your new link, and the relevant drawings are the
left hand and middle ones. * These are the nearest to what is required - but
you have too many tenons on them, one per joint is sufficient on that size
of timber.

I probably over drew it a bit by using 4x2 anyway - still depends on how
chunky your door I suppose.

The mortices in heads and sills should always be cut *parallel (or
longitudinal) with the grain - never across the grain, as this gives the
greatesy strength and makes things easier when you have to offset the
mortice to accommodate the rebate and moulding.

What I have done, is dug up an old text book that shows a doorframe head
section, complete with mortice and tenon joint and showing the rebate and
joint offset from the centre of the head - a scan of this drawing has been
posted towww.tinpic.comand can be seen using the following URL ---
http://i51.tinypic.com/kaqjp3.jpg

Yup can soon draw that... (nice illustration of a tapered mortice for
wedged tenons as well by the way).

I note lots of commercial frames, don't seem to bother with the haunches
these days - I presume because that would be another machining operation
after running the ends of the jambs past the spindle moulder to profile
the tenon?

Anyway, I have had a fiddle:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

Managed to get the grain texture running in the right direction, drew it
with haunches as standard, and twiddled the M&T joints round 90 degrees.

Anything else worth adding?

A nice article. One flaw though: people that already know how to do it
will understand it all, beginners won't.


NT

On 09/09/2011 15:41, NT wrote:
On Sep 8, 12:40 am, John wrote:
On 07/09/2011 21:21, Cash wrote:



John Rumm wrote:
On 06/09/2011 22:27, Cash wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2011 10:05, AL_n wrote:
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local
chippie then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make
the frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get
an idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)

ok here is a rough and ready set of piccies:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

There are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you
prefer cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder
to set out joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very
simple[1], and doing the rebates with a router last.

[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges,
but feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.

Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make
them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and
have not got one yet).

John,

I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline
gives the gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the
mortise and tenons have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the
grain' rather than with the grain.

Not quite sure what you mean here... are you just referring to the
"wood texture" that I had applied? Yes I agree that is wrong for the
verticals - but is just how the program chose to orient the texture.
I will see if I can recolour it better however.

Or are you referring to the front to back orientation of the tenon
rather than doing say a pair of small left to right tenons?

This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are
needed to make a decent job, and *more* *importantly* you are unable
to form the 'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of
the tenon exposed if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and
cill to ease the fitting

I actually set the whole tenon back from the outside edge (even when
cut without a horn), so at no point should it be exposed.

and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the
'short grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have
been formed by routing after the frame has been assembled).

Hope this makes sense, and is of some help.

Not quite, but with clarification I am sure it will be! ;-)

Sorry about that John, it didn't make a lot of sense to me when I re-read
what I posted last night - the old quack has supplied some rather strong
pills lately, and they seem to affect me in some rather strange ways.

The beggar wouldn't prescribe my preferred medication - two tots (large) of
bourbon once a night, to be taken with a mixer (small). LOL

Yup nuisance like that aren't they ;-)

(still with prescription prices, its cheaper to buy your own whisky if
doing it by the tot!)

Right, I have have seen your new link, and the relevant drawings are the
left hand and middle ones. These are the nearest to what is required - but
you have too many tenons on them, one per joint is sufficient on that size
of timber.

I probably over drew it a bit by using 4x2 anyway - still depends on how
chunky your door I suppose.

The mortices in heads and sills should always be cut parallel (or
longitudinal) with the grain - never across the grain, as this gives the
greatesy strength and makes things easier when you have to offset the
mortice to accommodate the rebate and moulding.

What I have done, is dug up an old text book that shows a doorframe head
section, complete with mortice and tenon joint and showing the rebate and
joint offset from the centre of the head - a scan of this drawing has been
posted towww.tinpic.comand can be seen using the following URL ---
http://i51.tinypic.com/kaqjp3.jpg

Yup can soon draw that... (nice illustration of a tapered mortice for
wedged tenons as well by the way).

I note lots of commercial frames, don't seem to bother with the haunches
these days - I presume because that would be another machining operation
after running the ends of the jambs past the spindle moulder to profile
the tenon?

Anyway, I have had a fiddle:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ior_door_frame

Managed to get the grain texture running in the right direction, drew it
with haunches as standard, and twiddled the M&T joints round 90 degrees.

Anything else worth adding?

A nice article. One flaw though: people that already know how to do it
will understand it all, beginners won't.

What would you like to see in addition?

(keeping in mind that hanging doors and frames etc is somewhat more
involved than it can appear and is perhaps not an ideal first timers
project)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

What would you like to see in addition?

(keeping in mind that hanging doors and frames etc is somewhat more
involved than it can appear and is perhaps not an ideal first timers project)

Plus I'm sure they'll come here with any questions that are not clear from
it and the article can be amended thus... To incorporate beginner's
queries! Not what those experienced might assume they'd not understand

--
What else are opposable thumbs for? Get to me at
masterfix{at}btinternet{dot}com