The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

In article
,
comp.zrch.embedded wrote:
The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

Did you get the bill from the structural engineer? That's what happened
here when a builder had to use one.

I'd say it pretty unusual to support brickwork on wood these days.

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sep 1, 2:32*pm, "comp.zrch.embedded" wrote:
The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

Have building control approved it?

Robert

On Sep 1, 3:08*pm, RobertL wrote:
On Sep 1, 2:32*pm, "comp.zrch.embedded" wrote:

The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

Have building control approved it?

Robert

I suspect not

On 01/09/2011 14:32, comp.zrch.embedded wrote:
The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

The short answer is that based on what little detail we have, its
probably ok.

The lintel will be carrying all the bricks in the "load triangle"
directly above it (i.e. visualise a triangle with sides leaning inward
from each end of the lintel at 45 degrees meeting at an apex above the
centre of the lintel). That sounds like an area of around 1.5m^2. Since
you have a fairly shallow roof angle by the sounds of it, you may find
some of that is full of nothing but air. However if we assume its all
masonry, and take the weight of a wall at about 4.5nN/m^2 that's an all
up weight of say 7.5kN (allowing a bit of leeway). You can look at that
as a uniformly distributed load of about 3kN/m of lintel. Assuming by
"floor joists" you mean four 200 x 50 timbers bolted together, then that
should be well inside their capacity (in fact you would be hard pushed
to even measure any deflection in the centre of the span with that load).




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 1, 3:55*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/09/2011 14:32, comp.zrch.embedded wrote:

The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

The short answer is that based on what little detail we have, its
probably ok.

The lintel will be carrying all the bricks in the "load triangle"
directly above it (i.e. visualise a triangle with sides leaning inward
from each end of the lintel at 45 degrees meeting at an apex above the
centre of the lintel). That sounds like an area of around 1.5m^2. Since
you have a fairly shallow roof angle by the sounds of it, you may find
some of that is full of nothing but air. However if we assume its all
masonry, and take the weight of a wall at about 4.5nN/m^2 that's an all
up weight of say 7.5kN (allowing a bit of leeway). You can look at that
as a uniformly distributed load of about 3kN/m of lintel. Assuming by
"floor joists" you mean four 200 x 50 timbers bolted together, then that
should be well inside their capacity (in fact you would be hard pushed
to even measure any deflection in the centre of the span with that load).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

Thanks

comp.zrch.embedded wrote:
The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

It'll be fine, until it rots, which usually starts at one, or even both
ends.
It needs to be steel, and for the price of it, I can't fathom out why he has
chosen wood - I've just used a 4m long, 100mm X 200mm steel beam to hold up
an upstairs wall in a 2 storey house and it cost about £60.
Obviously you would need two 2.5m lengths, one for each skin of brickwork,
but I can't see it being much more, the timber he's bought, along with the
bolts and the time used bolting everything together must have cost more than
this and it has a very limited life compared to steel.

If it's structural work he's doing, and it sounds like it is, the BCO should
be involved, and I'm 99% certain he would not allow this.

On 01/09/2011 17:33, comp.zrch.embedded wrote:
On Sep 1, 3:55 pm, John wrote:
On 01/09/2011 14:32, comp.zrch.embedded wrote:

The short answer is that based on what little detail we have, its
probably ok.

Thanks

To clarify a point, My answer was in relation to the structural aspect
of the work. I also agree with the others that its slightly unusual to
use wood for this application in this day and age unless its for
restoration/preservation work. Ready made steel lintels are surprisingly
cheap.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 1, 2:32*pm, "comp.zrch.embedded" wrote:
The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall
of a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to
hold up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double
brick work above it forming the roof slope. One end of the beam sits
on the side wall at roof gutter level, the other end sits under the
apex on the party wall, the brickwork above at the party wall end is
about 1.6m high. Span is about 2.5m . Does the supporting joist sound
ok, he tells me a structural engineer did the calculations and its to
be encased in plaster board.

Common practice in days of yore and if kept dry probably OK. Never
seen any one do it these days. Taken plenty out, some hundreds of
years old in variable condition from perfect to rotten.

Normal to use galvanised steel beams these days, probably cheaper too.
Lots of different sections available for various applications/loadings
Light quick and easy.

Did he use timber connectors between the joists (spikey washers)

Peculiar thing to do.

In article
,
harry wrote:
Common practice in days of yore and if kept dry probably OK. Never
seen any one do it these days. Taken plenty out, some hundreds of
years old in variable condition from perfect to rotten.

The one in my Victorian house is in rot free condition, but has sagged in
the middle.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:32:34 -0700, comp.zrch.embedded wrote:

The local builder doing some work for me has opened up the rear wall of
a single floored house and used 4 floor joists bolted together to hold
up the wall above it which has a right angled triangle of double brick
work above it forming the roof slope.

We've got structural supports like that in our place, and they've been
that way for 60-odd years. Admittedly it's all timber construction this
side of the pond rather than brick - but with 2 storeys I imagine the
weight they're supporting is quite significant.

I suppose you could ask if there's a good reason for not using steel in
your situation, though.

cheers

Jules

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 15:55:04 +0100 John Rumm wrote :
. However if we assume its all
masonry, and take the weight of a wall at about 4.5nN/m^2 that's an all
up weight of say 7.5kN (allowing a bit of leeway). You can look at that
as a uniformly distributed load of about 3kN/m of lintel. Assuming by
"floor joists" you mean four 200 x 50 timbers bolted together, then that
should be well inside their capacity (in fact you would be hard pushed
to even measure any deflection in the centre of the span with that load).

No argument from me. A risk when supporting brickwork off timber is that the
timber has a higher moisture content when fixed than it will ultimately have
and so will shrink a little. And as with steel beams, the beam needs to be
properly preloaded against the wall above by wedging or slate packing, not
just mortaring in any gap.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On 01/09/2011 23:19, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 15:55:04 +0100 John Rumm wrote :
. However if we assume its all
masonry, and take the weight of a wall at about 4.5nN/m^2 that's an all
up weight of say 7.5kN (allowing a bit of leeway). You can look at that
as a uniformly distributed load of about 3kN/m of lintel. Assuming by
"floor joists" you mean four 200 x 50 timbers bolted together, then that
should be well inside their capacity (in fact you would be hard pushed
to even measure any deflection in the centre of the span with that load).

No argument from me. A risk when supporting brickwork off timber is that the
timber has a higher moisture content when fixed than it will ultimately have
and so will shrink a little. And as with steel beams, the beam needs to be
properly preloaded against the wall above by wedging or slate packing, not
just mortaring in any gap.

A retired builder friend of mine (also a great fan of slate for packing
in these applications), also rated "dry packing" as an alternative for
some tricky cases. Basically a practically dry strong mortar mix
(probably no more moisture than just that in the damp sand), physically
rammed in hard and tight, and then allowed to cure naturally. Supposed
to result in practically no shrinkage.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Default] On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 07:51:54 -0700 (PDT), a certain
chimpanzee, "comp.zrch.embedded" , randomly hit
the keyboard and wrote:

On Sep 1, 3:08*pm, RobertL wrote:

Have building control approved it?

I suspect not

As the house owner you are ultimately liable for any work on your
property, so I would suggest you should make it your business to be
aware.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?