Coming close to buying a largish Victorian house in need of quite a
lot of work. Given the scale of the project, I'll need to get some
work done by others as it'll be years before it's in any useful state
if I'm doing all the work. Right now, I'm trying to plan what I
should do and what I should pay for.

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

So, am I missing something here or is it simply that this quote is
over-priced? I can't really start getting competitive quotes until I
have the place, and this was from a timber and damp survey that was
done while assessing the place. ( I suspect these 'free surveys' have
the benefit of bringing in a certain amount of work with a high mark-
up and, if challenged, the firm would say that they were helping the
purchaser to justify a price reduction. )

Any views on this, experiences or gotchas, chaps?

On Aug 27, 11:58*am, GMM wrote:
Coming close to buying a largish Victorian house in need of quite a
lot of work. *Given the scale of the project, I'll need to get some
work done by others as it'll be years before it's in any useful state
if I'm doing all the work. *Right now, I'm trying to plan what I
should do and what I should pay for.

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. *It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. *Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. *At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: *I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. *I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. *Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

So, am I missing something here or is it simply that this quote is
over-priced? *I can't really start getting competitive quotes until I
have the place, and this was from a timber and damp survey that was
done while assessing the place. ( I suspect these 'free surveys' have
the benefit of bringing in a certain amount of work with a high mark-
up and, if challenged, the firm would say that they were helping the
purchaser to justify a price reduction. )

Any views on this, experiences or gotchas, chaps?

5k far too much for replacing a floor of that size, unless there's
some unusual conditions.

Did the price perhaps include any remedial work against whatever
caused the rot in the first place?

On Aug 27, 12:34*pm, " wrote:
On Aug 27, 11:58*am, GMM wrote:





Coming close to buying a largish Victorian house in need of quite a
lot of work. *Given the scale of the project, I'll need to get some
work done by others as it'll be years before it's in any useful state
if I'm doing all the work. *Right now, I'm trying to plan what I
should do and what I should pay for.

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. *It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. *Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. *At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: *I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. *I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. *Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

So, am I missing something here or is it simply that this quote is
over-priced? *I can't really start getting competitive quotes until I
have the place, and this was from a timber and damp survey that was
done while assessing the place. ( I suspect these 'free surveys' have
the benefit of bringing in a certain amount of work with a high mark-
up and, if challenged, the firm would say that they were helping the
purchaser to justify a price reduction. )

Any views on this, experiences or gotchas, chaps?

5k far too much for replacing a floor of that size, unless there's
some unusual conditions.

Did the price perhaps include any remedial work against whatever
caused the rot in the first place?

Not really.....the joist ends had rotted some time ago from being
buried in a damp wall, which was subsequently damp-proofed. I don't
think there's anything particularly special about it at all.

In article
,
GMM wrote:
One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Mine was fixed like this too when I needed a woodwork guarantee (for the
mortgage) before moving in.

But it's not a bodge - it's been fine for over 30 years. Only the ends of
the joists where they went into the walls were rotten.

If you have further problems, perhaps it's still covered by a warranty?

--
*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Aug 27, 2:07*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *GMM wrote:

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. *It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. *Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. *At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Mine was fixed like this too when I needed a woodwork guarantee (for the
mortgage) before moving in.

But it's not a bodge - it's been fine for over 30 years. Only the ends of
the joists where they went into the walls were rotten.

If you have further problems, perhaps it's still covered by a warranty?

--
*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc. I'm very tempted to have a bash
myself, unless I can get a substantially cheaper quote, and use some
of the cash saved towards flooring in oak instead of pine.

In article
,
GMM wrote:
Mine was fixed like this too when I needed a woodwork guarantee (for
the mortgage) before moving in.

But it's not a bodge - it's been fine for over 30 years. Only the ends
of the joists where they went into the walls were rotten.

If you have further problems, perhaps it's still covered by a warranty?

It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc.

Does sound like it's been badly done. With brick pillars supporting, it
should be more rigid than originally. And certainly no slope - unless it
was like that before.

--
*I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/08/2011 11:58, GMM wrote:

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.

So, am I missing something here or is it simply that this quote is
over-priced? I can't really start getting competitive quotes until I
have the place, and this was from a timber and damp survey that was
done while assessing the place. ( I suspect these 'free surveys' have
the benefit of bringing in a certain amount of work with a high mark-
up and, if challenged, the firm would say that they were helping the
purchaser to justify a price reduction. )

Any views on this, experiences or gotchas, chaps?

The "timber and damp/rot" specialist companies seem to in particular
delight in OTT pricing. I recall one quote in particular on a place I
know, where the job was to fix dry rot that had got into a upstairs
floor, and also the bresema beam over the top of a big window that
supported the corner of the house in cantilever. They started off
hacking back the plaster, ceiling, decorative Victorian cove etc, with
an initial estimate of 12K. This they then expanded to 19K when they saw
the scope of the work. About this time the owner told them where to go.
Got a local joiner in to do the work (under 3K), someone else to treat
the rot affected areas (£150), and had to pay a fair bit to have the
cove replicated and replaced IIRC (which was not included in the
specialist companies quote anyway).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.

The "timber and damp/rot" specialist companies seem to in particular
delight in OTT pricing. I recall one quote in particular on a place I
know, where the job was to fix dry rot that had got into a upstairs
floor, and also the bresema beam over the top of a big window that
supported the corner of the house in cantilever. They started off hacking
back the plaster, ceiling, decorative Victorian cove etc, with an initial
estimate of 12K. This they then expanded to 19K when they saw the scope
of the work. About this time the owner told them where to go. Got a local
joiner in to do the work (under 3K), someone else to treat the rot
affected areas (£150), and had to pay a fair bit to have the cove
replicated and replaced IIRC (which was not included in the specialist
companies quote anyway).

Yep. Do it yourself, as they say. If you've built a deck before you should
have no problems and no tradesman will be able to beat the price of doing
it yourself. Wood is an easy and forgiving material to work with so why the
hell not
Can you use the existing niches in the wall to support the new joists or
would you need wall plates and joist hangers? Also, if you've a cellar
beneath the room that would make it easier on the knees (except for the
floor covering/boards.)
If it's sloping and springy you'd definitely be better to replace it.

--
What else are opposable thumbs for? Get to me at
masterfix{at}btinternet{dot}com

On Aug 27, 4:12*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2011 11:58, GMM wrote:

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: *I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. *I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. *Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.

So, am I missing something here or is it simply that this quote is
over-priced? *I can't really start getting competitive quotes until I
have the place, and this was from a timber and damp survey that was
done while assessing the place. ( I suspect these 'free surveys' have
the benefit of bringing in a certain amount of work with a high mark-
up and, if challenged, the firm would say that they were helping the
purchaser to justify a price reduction. )

Any views on this, experiences or gotchas, chaps?

The "timber and damp/rot" specialist companies seem to in particular
delight in OTT pricing. I recall one quote in particular on a place I
know, where the job was to fix dry rot that had got into a upstairs
floor, and also the bresema beam over the top of a big window that
supported the corner of the house in cantilever. They started off
hacking back the plaster, ceiling, decorative Victorian cove etc, with
an initial estimate of 12K. This they then expanded to 19K when they saw
the scope of the work. About this time the owner told them where to go.
Got a local joiner in to do the work (under 3K), someone else to treat
the rot affected areas (£150), and had to pay a fair bit to have the
cove replicated and replaced IIRC (which was not included in the
specialist companies quote anyway).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

I was thinking of hangers straight onto the walls, but it seemed to me
that a board along each wall would ensure that everything is level
etc, whereas a small variation at each independent hanger could lead
to a wonky floor. Am I being a bit over cautious there, do you
think? I also thought a well fixed board, with dpc (as you say) would
space everything well away from walls which might one day seep some
dampness.

The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have
in mind he On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to
clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. All
up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job
(including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider
paying, since time is money and all that. It just seems that £4k is
taking the michael.
As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and
timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for
the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. The problem
for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that
need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the
basic work is done.

On Aug 27, 4:46*pm, Dean Heighington
wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.
The "timber and damp/rot" specialist companies seem to in particular
delight in OTT pricing. I recall one quote in particular on a place I
know, where the job was to fix dry rot that had got into a upstairs
floor, and also the bresema beam over the top of a big window that
supported the corner of the house in cantilever. They started off hacking
back the plaster, ceiling, decorative Victorian cove etc, with an initial
estimate of 12K. This they then expanded to 19K when they saw the scope
of the work. About this time the owner told them where to go. Got a local
joiner in to do the work (under 3K), someone else to treat the rot
affected areas (£150), and had to pay a fair bit to have the cove
replicated and replaced IIRC (which was not included in the specialist
companies quote anyway).

Yep. Do it yourself, as they say. If you've built a deck before you should
have no problems and no tradesman will be able to beat the price of doing
it yourself. Wood is an easy and forgiving material to work with so why the
hell not
Can you use the existing niches in the wall to support the new joists or
would you need wall plates and joist hangers? Also, if you've a cellar
beneath the room that would make it easier on the knees (except for the
floor covering/boards.)
If it's sloping and springy you'd definitely be better to replace it.

--
What else are opposable thumbs for? Get to me at
masterfix{at}btinternet{dot}com

I'm a bit reluctant to try to fiddle new joists into the old niches,
partly because it's asking for the same old problem again and partly
because it sounds like it would be hard work to me (!): I assume it
would be necessary to remove some adjacent bricks to get a joist in,
adding another dimension (ie cutting them out and mortaring back in)
to the job.

I agree that the cellar might make it easier. On the other hand it's
quite a high (or is that deep?) cellar, so I'll have to arrange
something to stand on along each wall, to work reasonable comfortably.

Of course, doing it myself might also allow me to justify some new
toys: I could use a new chop saw and this might be the time to look
at the benefits of a decent laser level......

On Aug 27, 5:14*pm, GMM wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:12*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2011 11:58, GMM wrote:

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: *I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. *I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. *Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.

So, am I missing something here or is it simply that this quote is
over-priced? *I can't really start getting competitive quotes until I
have the place, and this was from a timber and damp survey that was
done while assessing the place. ( I suspect these 'free surveys' have
the benefit of bringing in a certain amount of work with a high mark-
up and, if challenged, the firm would say that they were helping the
purchaser to justify a price reduction. )

Any views on this, experiences or gotchas, chaps?

The "timber and damp/rot" specialist companies seem to in particular
delight in OTT pricing. I recall one quote in particular on a place I
know, where the job was to fix dry rot that had got into a upstairs
floor, and also the bresema beam over the top of a big window that
supported the corner of the house in cantilever. They started off
hacking back the plaster, ceiling, decorative Victorian cove etc, with
an initial estimate of 12K. This they then expanded to 19K when they saw
the scope of the work. About this time the owner told them where to go.
Got a local joiner in to do the work (under 3K), someone else to treat
the rot affected areas (£150), and had to pay a fair bit to have the
cove replicated and replaced IIRC (which was not included in the
specialist companies quote anyway).


I was thinking of hangers straight onto the walls, but it seemed to me
that a board along each wall would ensure that everything is level

It would also make the structure more rot vulnerable

etc, whereas a small variation at each independent hanger could lead
to a wonky floor. *Am I being a bit over cautious there, do you
think? *I also thought a well fixed board, with dpc (as you say) would
space everything well away from walls which might one day seep some
dampness.

You could put a board up as a temporary measure just to line up the
hangers with, fix the hangers to masonry. If any are a bit out of
line, just put a bit of packing material into the hanger for the joist
to sit on. You can do it any way you want really.

NT


The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have
in mind he * On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to
clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. *All
up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job
(including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider
paying, since time is money and all that. *It just seems that £4k is
taking the michael.
As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and
timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for
the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. *The problem
for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that
need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the
basic work is done.

On Aug 27, 3:53*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *GMM wrote:

Mine was fixed like this too when I needed a woodwork guarantee (for
the mortgage) before moving in.

But it's not a bodge - it's been fine for over 30 years. Only the ends
of the joists where they went into the walls were rotten.

If you have further problems, perhaps it's still covered by a warranty?
It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. *You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc.

Does sound like it's been badly done. With brick pillars supporting, it
should be more rigid than originally. And certainly no slope - unless it
was like that before.

--
*I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

It's clearly been that way for some time - I reckon it was done as a
cheap job some years ago. At least it hasn't fallen down (yet) so
whoever did it might say that it was a success!

On 27/08/2011 16:46, Dean Heighington wrote:
John wrote:

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.

The "timber and damp/rot" specialist companies seem to in particular
delight in OTT pricing. I recall one quote in particular on a place I
know, where the job was to fix dry rot that had got into a upstairs
floor, and also the bresema beam over the top of a big window that
supported the corner of the house in cantilever. They started off hacking
back the plaster, ceiling, decorative Victorian cove etc, with an initial
estimate of 12K. This they then expanded to 19K when they saw the scope
of the work. About this time the owner told them where to go. Got a local
joiner in to do the work (under 3K), someone else to treat the rot
affected areas (£150), and had to pay a fair bit to have the cove
replicated and replaced IIRC (which was not included in the specialist
companies quote anyway).

Yep. Do it yourself, as they say. If you've built a deck before you should
have no problems and no tradesman will be able to beat the price of doing
it yourself. Wood is an easy and forgiving material to work with so why the
hell not
Can you use the existing niches in the wall to support the new joists or
would you need wall plates and joist hangers? Also, if you've a cellar

Not allowed under modern building regs IIUC. (they are also not fond of
any form of "complicated" joinery on joists either like haunched tennons
etc preferring the repeatability and easy load calculations offered by
steel hangers).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27/08/2011 17:14, GMM wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:12 pm, John wrote:
On 27/08/2011 11:58, GMM wrote:

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.


I was thinking of hangers straight onto the walls, but it seemed to me
that a board along each wall would ensure that everything is level
etc, whereas a small variation at each independent hanger could lead
to a wonky floor. Am I being a bit over cautious there, do you
think? I also thought a well fixed board, with dpc (as you say) would

The board would be easier, if you are confident that it is not going to
be at risk of rotting due to contact with the wall etc. However I would
site it level with the joists and then use jiffy hangers on it for each
joist. (use sheradised square twist nails in every hole).

The masonry fix hangers would probably be better if it needed to take a
heavy load, since you can get them rated at 12kN or more.

space everything well away from walls which might one day seep some
dampness.

The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have
in mind he On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to
clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. All
up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job
(including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider
paying, since time is money and all that. It just seems that £4k is
taking the michael.

Timber would probably be less than £350, metalwork will vary depending
on which route you go - but ought to be no more than £200 ish.

(when I did a complete loft floor in 2004, the timber was about £350,
and the steel about £430 (that was mostly hangers, but also five flitch
plates, and bolts etc)

As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and
timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for
the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. The problem
for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that
need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the
basic work is done.

Indeed. Its going to be a case of work out which jobs to DIY and which
are worth paying for due to hassle, complexity, time span etc.

Joisting out a floor I would definitely DIY - it really is very simple
and is a pretty quick job - the materials are also pretty cheap - most
of the sting in commercial quotes will be the labour.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27/08/2011 15:36, GMM wrote:
On Aug 27, 2:07 pm, "Dave Plowman
wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Mine was fixed like this too when I needed a woodwork guarantee (for the
mortgage) before moving in.

But it's not a bodge - it's been fine for over 30 years. Only the ends of
the joists where they went into the walls were rotten.

If you have further problems, perhaps it's still covered by a warranty?

--
*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc. I'm very tempted to have a bash
myself, unless I can get a substantially cheaper quote, and use some
of the cash saved towards flooring in oak instead of pine.

As an aside, if you want less spring in a room that size when re-done,
stick a couple of rows of herringbone across the joists (either
traditional cut from wood, or the modern metal straps)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"GMM" wrote in message
...
Coming close to buying a largish Victorian house in need of quite a



If you want to replace the joists .... best way is to fit pressure
impregnated longitudinal bearers .... using appropriate anchors, then fit
joist hangars, and hang your new joists on those.

On Aug 27, 11:58*am, GMM wrote:
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Sounds low for timber, high for labour.

Spinning spot laser levels are wonderful, but the £50 ones don't work
in daylight.

GMM wrote:
Coming close to buying a largish Victorian house in need of quite a
lot of work. Given the scale of the project, I'll need to get some
work done by others as it'll be years before it's in any useful state
if I'm doing all the work. Right now, I'm trying to plan what I
should do and what I should pay for.

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k,
so that sounds like £4k for labour.

When you say 'cellar' do you mean crawlspace, or is it an usable space?

if it's just a 2 - 3ft gap, why not just fill it with MOT and lay concrete
over insulation.

20t MOT = £300
insulation = £200
concrete = £200
dpm and a few other bits will come to £50 and you've got an insulated floor
rather than a cold draughty one.
on that note, if you go ahead with concreting, you will have to install vent
pipes to allow the other floors to get air from outside

It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc. I'm very tempted to have a bash
myself, unless I can get a substantially cheaper quote, and use some
of the cash saved towards flooring in oak instead of pine.

If you feel up to it and confident you can do it and its not rocket
science then just do it;!...

It has always seemed to me that if theres sufficient ventilation under
floors like this and reasonably dry then they seem to behave themselves
and don't rot...

--
Tony Sayer

On 27/08/2011 21:28, tony sayer wrote:
It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc. I'm very tempted to have a bash
myself, unless I can get a substantially cheaper quote, and use some
of the cash saved towards flooring in oak instead of pine.

If you feel up to it and confident you can do it and its not rocket
science then just do it;!...

It has always seemed to me that if theres sufficient ventilation under
floors like this and reasonably dry then they seem to behave themselves
and don't rot...

Yes but
1) Very often there isn't
2) Victorian walls seldom have an effective DPC

On 27/08/2011 17:23,

I'm a bit reluctant to try to fiddle new joists into the old niches,
partly because it's asking for the same old problem again and partly
because it sounds like it would be hard work to me (!): I assume it
would be necessary to remove some adjacent bricks to get a joist in,
adding another dimension (ie cutting them out and mortaring back in)
to the job.

Agreed. I think I would be inclined to use joist hangers (with wedges in
the "socket" below to adjust height, because you'll never get them all
level), also to make sure there is an effective sleeper wall at mid-span.

In article , Newshound
scribeth thus
On 27/08/2011 21:28, tony sayer wrote:
It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc. I'm very tempted to have a bash
myself, unless I can get a substantially cheaper quote, and use some
of the cash saved towards flooring in oak instead of pine.

If you feel up to it and confident you can do it and its not rocket
science then just do it;!...

It has always seemed to me that if theres sufficient ventilation under
floors like this and reasonably dry then they seem to behave themselves
and don't rot...

Yes but
1) Very often there isn't

Well as Captain Pickard would say "Make it so";!..

2) Victorian walls seldom have an effective DPC

Well the one olde Victorian house we had was supposed to have had damp
but after they came and squirted that injectable damp proof course it
still was damp. When we sorted out the leaking gutters and blocked drain
its been fine since than..

Most of the injected DPC when right thru the wall and into the space
under floor the vents to which were blocked op as someone has replaced
the vent bricks with solid ones! I suppose in a mistaken belief then
they'd keep the place warmer;!...
--
Tony Sayer

On Aug 28, 12:14*pm, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Newshound
scribeth thus





On 27/08/2011 21:28, tony sayer wrote:
It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any
guarantees available. *You could always argue that it's been there for
a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite
slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever
to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset,
before decorating, furnishing etc. *I'm very tempted to have a bash
myself, unless I can get a substantially cheaper quote, and use some
of the cash saved towards flooring in oak instead of pine.

If you feel up to it and confident you can do it and its not rocket
science then just do it;!...

It has always seemed to me that if theres sufficient ventilation under
floors like this and reasonably dry then they seem to behave themselves
and don't rot...

Yes but
* * * 1) Very often there isn't

Well as Captain Pickard would say "Make it so";!..

* * * 2) Victorian walls seldom have an effective DPC

Well the one olde Victorian house we had was supposed to have had damp
but after they came and squirted that injectable damp proof course it
still was damp. When we sorted out the leaking gutters and blocked drain
its been fine since than..

Most of the injected DPC when right thru the wall and into the space
under floor the vents to which were blocked op as someone has replaced
the vent bricks with solid ones! I suppose in a mistaken belief then
they'd keep the place warmer;!...
--
Tony Sayer

Ahh..well, the various sources of damp/water and the state of the
ventilation are other issues that will need plenty of attention in
this house: A good bit of drainage work is on the agenda, along with
providing (or re-instating) decent levels of ventilation in various
locations. All sorts of long-standing bodgery needs to be dealt
with.
The best aspect is that there is little doubt about whether most of
the jobs need to be done (!)
The challenge at the moment is working out the jigsaw puzzle of the
sequence of jobs and being rational about what has to be paid for and
what I should DIY.

On Aug 27, 8:23*pm, "Phil L" wrote:
GMM wrote:
Coming close to buying a largish Victorian house in need of quite a
lot of work. *Given the scale of the project, I'll need to get some
work done by others as it'll be years before it's in any useful state
if I'm doing all the work. *Right now, I'm trying to plan what I
should do and what I should pay for.

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft
room. *It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years
ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar,
and it all looks a bit of a bodge. *Simple answer would be complete
replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for 5k. *At
a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of 1k,
so that sounds like 4k for labour.

When you say 'cellar' do you mean crawlspace, or is it an usable space?

if it's just a 2 - 3ft gap, why not just fill it with MOT and lay concrete
over insulation.

20t MOT = 300
insulation = 200
concrete = 200
dpm and a few other bits will come to 50 and you've got an insulated floor
rather than a cold draughty one.
on that note, if you go ahead with concreting, you will have to install vent
pipes to allow the other floors to get air from outside

The floor I have in mind here has a 'real' cellar under it, which is
actually quite high in my experience of cellars (maybe 7 - 8').

Nonetheless, your suggestion here is an interesting one as there is
another (living) room, which has alleged rot under the floor and I was
quoted an equivalent amount for replacement. According to the
(expensive) damp and timber people, the key problem with this is a
lack of free ventilation (air brick at the front, none at the back,
with the added problem or there being a conservatory at the back, so
not an easy job to introduce a vent).
This has about 3 feet of space beneath, so in the range you describe
here. I hadn't really thought about making it a solid floor but doing
this would allow underfloor heating, which would be nice. The floor
runs from front to back and, as the conservatory already has a solid
floor, there would be no (obvious) problem with blocking ventilation.
I shall have to mull on this one - Thanks for the idea!

GMM wrote:
The floor I have in mind here has a 'real' cellar under it, which is
actually quite high in my experience of cellars (maybe 7 - 8').

Nonetheless, your suggestion here is an interesting one as there is
another (living) room, which has alleged rot under the floor and I was
quoted an equivalent amount for replacement. According to the
(expensive) damp and timber people, the key problem with this is a
lack of free ventilation (air brick at the front, none at the back,
with the added problem or there being a conservatory at the back, so
not an easy job to introduce a vent).

You can't get crossflow ventilation in this case without installing vents in
the wooden floor farthest from the front of the house, these will have to go
actually in the floorboards and carpeted around.

Downside is you've got cold air coming through them, upside is that your
floors will last longer than 10 years, but not if there's no ventilation,
and at the moment, there is none

This has about 3 feet of space beneath, so in the range you describe
here. I hadn't really thought about making it a solid floor but doing
this would allow underfloor heating, which would be nice. The floor
runs from front to back and, as the conservatory already has a solid
floor, there would be no (obvious) problem with blocking ventilation.
I shall have to mull on this one - Thanks for the idea!

On Aug 27, 7:00*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2011 17:14, GMM wrote:



On Aug 27, 4:12 pm, John *wrote:
On 27/08/2011 11:58, GMM wrote:

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: *I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. *I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. *Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.
I was thinking of hangers straight onto the walls, but it seemed to me
that a board along each wall would ensure that everything is level
etc, whereas a small variation at each independent hanger could lead
to a wonky floor. *Am I being a bit over cautious there, do you
think? *I also thought a well fixed board, with dpc (as you say) would

The board would be easier, if you are confident that it is not going to
be at risk of rotting due to contact with the wall etc. However I would
site it level with the joists and then use jiffy hangers on it for each
joist. (use sheradised square twist nails in every hole).

The masonry fix hangers would probably be better if it needed to take a
heavy load, since you can get them rated at 12kN or more.

space everything well away from walls which might one day seep some
dampness.

The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have
in mind he * On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to
clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. *All
up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job
(including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider
paying, since time is money and all that. *It just seems that £4k is
taking the michael.

Timber would probably be less than £350, metalwork will vary depending
on which route you go - but ought to be no more than £200 ish.

(when I did a complete loft floor in 2004, the timber was about £350,
and the steel about £430 (that was mostly hangers, but also five flitch
plates, and bolts etc)

As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and
timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for
the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. *The problem
for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that
need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the
basic work is done.

Indeed. Its going to be a case of work out which jobs to DIY and which
are worth paying for due to hassle, complexity, time span etc.

Joisting out a floor I would definitely DIY - it really is very simple
and is a pretty quick job - the materials are also pretty cheap - most
of the sting in commercial quotes will be the labour.

If you're desperate to save a few hundred, you can use cut up angle
iron as joist hangers - industrial dexion, not flimsy domestic stuff.
Cut with an angle grinder.

\\|
\\| |
\\| |___ --- joist end sits on here
\\|
\\|
wall

NT

On Aug 27, 7:00*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/08/2011 17:14, GMM wrote:





On Aug 27, 4:12 pm, John *wrote:
On 27/08/2011 11:58, GMM wrote:

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: *I've never
replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same
principle. *I would see it as running a ledger board along each long
side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on,
job done. *Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use
of my time.

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you
describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with
the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.
I was thinking of hangers straight onto the walls, but it seemed to me
that a board along each wall would ensure that everything is level
etc, whereas a small variation at each independent hanger could lead
to a wonky floor. *Am I being a bit over cautious there, do you
think? *I also thought a well fixed board, with dpc (as you say) would

The board would be easier, if you are confident that it is not going to
be at risk of rotting due to contact with the wall etc. However I would
site it level with the joists and then use jiffy hangers on it for each
joist. (use sheradised square twist nails in every hole).

The masonry fix hangers would probably be better if it needed to take a
heavy load, since you can get them rated at 12kN or more.

space everything well away from walls which might one day seep some
dampness.

The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have
in mind he * On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to
clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. *All
up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job
(including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider
paying, since time is money and all that. *It just seems that £4k is
taking the michael.

Timber would probably be less than £350, metalwork will vary depending
on which route you go - but ought to be no more than £200 ish.

(when I did a complete loft floor in 2004, the timber was about £350,
and the steel about £430 (that was mostly hangers, but also five flitch
plates, and bolts etc)

As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and
timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for
the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. *The problem
for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that
need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the
basic work is done.

Indeed. Its going to be a case of work out which jobs to DIY and which
are worth paying for due to hassle, complexity, time span etc.

Joisting out a floor I would definitely DIY - it really is very simple
and is a pretty quick job - the materials are also pretty cheap - most
of the sting in commercial quotes will be the labour.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

John,

I was reflecting on this post and wondering where you see £200 in
metalwork. I was thinking ~30 joist hangers and half that number of
herring bone struts which, combined, would be well shy of £100 (unless
bought in completely the wrong place). It's not that I mind the cost,
simply that I might be missing a bit in my estimation of the design:
Are you assuming a steel member running along the middle of a 14 ft
floor or something like that?

In other news, we exchanged contracts today, so this (together with a
whole load of other jobs) is going to become a reality in a month.
Just in time for the weather to cool down and the evenings to draw in,
sadly.....

In article
,
GMM wrote:
In other news, we exchanged contracts today, so this (together with a
whole load of other jobs) is going to become a reality in a month.
Just in time for the weather to cool down and the evenings to draw in,
sadly.....

Most of your work will be in the cellar, and they stay remarkably constant
temperature wise regardless of the weather.

--
*No sentence fragments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30/08/2011 16:31, GMM wrote:
On Aug 27, 7:00 pm, John wrote:

The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have
in mind he On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to
clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. All
up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job
(including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider
paying, since time is money and all that. It just seems that £4k is
taking the michael.

Timber would probably be less than £350, metalwork will vary depending
on which route you go - but ought to be no more than £200 ish.

(when I did a complete loft floor in 2004, the timber was about £350,
and the steel about £430 (that was mostly hangers, but also five flitch
plates, and bolts etc)

As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and
timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for
the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. The problem
for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that
need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the
basic work is done.

Indeed. Its going to be a case of work out which jobs to DIY and which
are worth paying for due to hassle, complexity, time span etc.

Joisting out a floor I would definitely DIY - it really is very simple
and is a pretty quick job - the materials are also pretty cheap - most
of the sting in commercial quotes will be the labour.


John,

I was reflecting on this post and wondering where you see £200 in
metalwork. I was thinking ~30 joist hangers and half that number of

Well to be fair I did not go and cost it - so don't read too much into
my estimate - it was more a worst case figure. (I looked at what it cost
to do my loft and worked back a bit - quite possibly not far enough).

herring bone struts which, combined, would be well shy of £100 (unless
bought in completely the wrong place). It's not that I mind the cost,
simply that I might be missing a bit in my estimation of the design:
Are you assuming a steel member running along the middle of a 14 ft
floor or something like that?

Timber struts at the ends, and jiffy hangers ought to be pretty cheap.
Masonry shoes for each joist would cost more (you would also need 4
expanding sleeve anchors per shoe which would rack up more cost).

A quick look at screwfix prices suggests that £100 for the metalwork
should certainly be doable.

In other news, we exchanged contracts today, so this (together with a
whole load of other jobs) is going to become a reality in a month.
Just in time for the weather to cool down and the evenings to draw in,
sadly.....

Oh, make a list of all the stuff that can't wait, and you need daylight
for, and tackle that first I guess.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Aug 30, 4:51*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *GMM wrote:

In other news, we exchanged contracts today, so this (together with a
whole load of other jobs) is going to become a reality in a month.
Just in time for the weather to cool down and the evenings to draw in,
sadly.....

Most of your work will be in the cellar, and they stay remarkably constant
temperature wise regardless of the weather.

--
*No sentence fragments *

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Well...it will be for this job, but the list goes on...and on !

On Aug 30, 9:14*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/08/2011 16:31, GMM wrote:





On Aug 27, 7:00 pm, John *wrote:
The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have
in mind he * On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to
clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. *All
up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job
(including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider
paying, since time is money and all that. *It just seems that £4k is
taking the michael.

Timber would probably be less than £350, metalwork will vary depending
on which route you go - but ought to be no more than £200 ish.

(when I did a complete loft floor in 2004, the timber was about £350,
and the steel about £430 (that was mostly hangers, but also five flitch
plates, and bolts etc)

As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and
timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for
the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. *The problem
for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that
need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the
basic work is done.

Indeed. Its going to be a case of work out which jobs to DIY and which
are worth paying for due to hassle, complexity, time span etc.

Joisting out a floor I would definitely DIY - it really is very simple
and is a pretty quick job - the materials are also pretty cheap - most
of the sting in commercial quotes will be the labour.
John,

I was reflecting on this post and wondering where you see £200 in
metalwork. *I was thinking ~30 joist hangers and half that number of

Well to be fair I did not go and cost it - so don't read too much into
my estimate - it was more a worst case figure. (I looked at what it cost
to do my loft and worked back a bit - quite possibly not far enough).

herring bone struts which, combined, would be well shy of £100 (unless
bought in completely the wrong place). *It's not that I mind the cost,
simply that I might be missing a bit in my estimation of the design:
Are you assuming a steel member running along the middle of a 14 ft
floor or something like that?

Timber struts at the ends, and jiffy hangers ought to be pretty cheap.
Masonry shoes for each joist would cost more (you would also need 4
expanding sleeve anchors per shoe which would rack up more cost).

A quick look at screwfix prices suggests that £100 for the metalwork
should certainly be doable.

In other news, we exchanged contracts today, so this (together with a
whole load of other jobs) is going to become a reality in a month.
Just in time for the weather to cool down and the evenings to draw in,
sadly.....

Oh, make a list of all the stuff that can't wait, and you need daylight
for, and tackle that first I guess.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ===============

Ahh...that's a relief - I thought maybe I was missing something
crucial!

Good plan - by the time I finish the list, it'll be spring and the
days will be longer......

Cheers

John Rumm wrote:

make a list of all the stuff that can't wait, and you need daylight
for, and tackle that first

On the subject of which ... does anyone have any recommendation for a
todo list manager that handles subtasks (not necessarily nested) and
dependencies between tasks and subtasks?

I don't really care if it's Windows, Linux, Android or browser based ,
but preferably *not* something that thinks it's a full-blown project
manager.

In article
,
GMM wrote:
On Aug 30, 4:51 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
GMM wrote:

In other news, we exchanged contracts today, so this (together with
a whole load of other jobs) is going to become a reality in a month.
Just in time for the weather to cool down and the evenings to draw
in, sadly.....

Most of your work will be in the cellar, and they stay remarkably
constant temperature wise regardless of the weather.


Well...it will be for this job, but the list goes on...and on !

Just do it bit by bit and carefully. You'll be rewarded in the end with
house with far more character (and space) than a modern one.

--
*One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Dingley wrote:

Spinning spot laser levels are wonderful, but the £50 ones don't work
in daylight.

How odd, I've got a no-name £25 unit from Makro and that works perfectly
well at mid-day, in Italy.

On 30/08/2011 22:01, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

make a list of all the stuff that can't wait, and you need daylight
for, and tackle that first

On the subject of which ... does anyone have any recommendation for a
todo list manager that handles subtasks (not necessarily nested) and
dependencies between tasks and subtasks?

I don't really care if it's Windows, Linux, Android or browser based ,
but preferably *not* something that thinks it's a full-blown project
manager.

Depends on how far you want to go... for simple list tracking I use ToDo
List Lite i.e. the free version of to do list 7 from:

http://www.dextronet.com/

If you want something that can do critical path etc. Then a nice basic
easy to use platform agnostic tool is:

http://www.ganttproject.biz/


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/08/2011 21:44, GMM wrote:

Ahh...that's a relief - I thought maybe I was missing something
crucial!

Nope - probably just not apportioning the the costs of the various steel
bits and bobs. I paid about £430 for the steel to do:

http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/beam-layout.gif

That was for 4 flitch plates, plus long hangers for the ends of the
joists where they join F, ordinary hangers for all the joins to B and C,
plus bolts, dog washers etc. I had a couple of extra steel plates to
bridge the join of beams D & G which really did have to meet end on with
only 2" of end on the wall (the rest actually sailed passed each other).

The plates were probably about half of that, and most of the hangers
were not actually that expensive. It was all the extra niff naff like
long 12mm bolts, nuts, plate washers that actually added quite a bit of
unexpected cost. The result was that an essentially "wood" floor cost
more in steel than wood! (and that included some C24 stress grade stuff
as well).

Good plan - by the time I finish the list, it'll be spring and the
days will be longer......

IME several springs later ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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John Rumm wrote:

On 30/08/2011 22:01, Andy Burns wrote:

does anyone have any recommendation for a todo list manager that
handles subtasks and dependencies?

Depends on how far you want to go... for simple list tracking I use ToDo
List Lite i.e. the free version of to do list 7 from:

http://www.dextronet.com/

A quick look doesn't have dependencies leaping out at me from the
feature list but I'll downloD THE DEMO, thanks.

If you want something that can do critical path etc. Then a nice basic
easy to use platform agnostic tool is:

No I don't need all that, I only want it to remind me of dependent tasks
that need doing first, most of the cheap'n'cheerful stuff only handles
that for subtasks, but i want to keep them separate (e.g. separate jobs
by room, but to have a reminder to drop interlinked fire alarm cable
into kitchen ceiling before tiling bathroom floor).

Andy Burns wrote:

A quick look doesn't have dependencies leaping out at me from the feature
list but I'll downloD THE DEMO, thanks.

No I don't need all that, I only want it to remind me of dependent tasks
that need doing first, most of the cheap'n'cheerful stuff only handles
that for subtasks, but i want to keep them separate (e.g. separate jobs
by room, but to have a reminder to drop interlinked fire alarm cable into
kitchen ceiling before tiling bathroom floor).

And a reminder to check ceiling/floor voids for recently used tools before
entombing them forever (or at least until Indiana builder comes along). I
have lost (and gained) a surprising number of tools due to this
--
What else are opposable thumbs for? Get to me at
masterfix{at}btinternet{dot}com

In article
,
Dean Heighington wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

A quick look doesn't have dependencies leaping out at me from the
feature list but I'll downloD THE DEMO, thanks.

No I don't need all that, I only want it to remind me of dependent
tasks that need doing first, most of the cheap'n'cheerful stuff only
handles that for subtasks, but i want to keep them separate (e.g.
separate jobs by room, but to have a reminder to drop interlinked fire
alarm cable into kitchen ceiling before tiling bathroom floor).

And a reminder to check ceiling/floor voids for recently used tools
before entombing them forever (or at least until Indiana builder comes
along). I have lost (and gained) a surprising number of tools due to this


a few years ago, I had to remove a ceiling panel in our, recently buit
theatre. I found a string of builders' lights which had been left behind
since someone had forgotton to remove them before the internal walls were
built up.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 30/08/2011 22:01, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

make a list of all the stuff that can't wait, and you need daylight
for, and tackle that first

On the subject of which ... does anyone have any recommendation for a
todo list manager that handles subtasks (not necessarily nested) and
dependencies between tasks and subtasks?

I don't really care if it's Windows, Linux, Android or browser based ,
but preferably *not* something that thinks it's a full-blown project
manager.

Depends on how far you want to go... for simple list tracking I use
ToDo List Lite i.e. the free version of to do list 7 from:

http://www.dextronet.com/

I read through the site very carefully but could only find the 30 day
free trial. Am I blind or otherwise afflicted?:-)

regards
--
Tim Lamb