Hello All,
I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them. At this time the units were all about 3
years old. Kidde did not accept the units were faulty in any way but
did replace FOC.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game. I have been able to determine which
unit is at fault (this time the alarm continues for a period of 20 to
90 seconds giving time to run around and see which one has triggered)
and have removed and disabled this unit. NB There have been no false
alarms during this 3 year period from toasting/cooking/ or from the
mysterious cause until 2 weeks ago and then had 3 alarms in this last
2 weeks

Does anyone else have this problem?

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around £40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby (OK, I
know its not much compared to saving your life but.....)

Has anyone any recommendations for similar function units from other
brands that have proved more reliable?

TIA
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian

wrote in message
...
Hello All,
I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them. At this time the units were all about 3
years old. Kidde did not accept the units were faulty in any way but
did replace FOC.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game. I have been able to determine which
unit is at fault (this time the alarm continues for a period of 20 to
90 seconds giving time to run around and see which one has triggered)
and have removed and disabled this unit. NB There have been no false
alarms during this 3 year period from toasting/cooking/ or from the
mysterious cause until 2 weeks ago and then had 3 alarms in this last
2 weeks

Does anyone else have this problem?

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around £40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby (OK, I
know its not much compared to saving your life but.....)

Has anyone any recommendations for similar function units from other
brands that have proved more reliable?

TIA
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian

Get advice from a small local independent fire alarm company.
Kidde are gangsters, always have been and always will be.

On Aug 23, 5:10*pm, wrote:
Hello All,
I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them. At this time the units were all about 3
years old. Kidde did not accept the units were faulty in any way but
did replace FOC.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game. I have been able to determine which
unit is at fault (this time the alarm continues for a period of 20 to
90 seconds giving time to run around and see which one has triggered)
and have removed and disabled this unit. NB There have been no false
alarms during this 3 year period *from toasting/cooking/ or from the
mysterious cause until 2 weeks ago and then had 3 alarms in this last
2 weeks

Does anyone else have this problem?

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around 40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby (OK, I
know its not much compared to saving your life but.....)

Has anyone any recommendations for similar function units from *other
brands that have proved more reliable?

TIA
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian

Could be insects getting in the optical bit.

On Aug 23, 5:10*pm, wrote:
Hello All,
I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them. At this time the units were all about 3
years old. Kidde did not accept the units were faulty in any way but
did replace FOC.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game. I have been able to determine which
unit is at fault (this time the alarm continues for a period of 20 to
90 seconds giving time to run around and see which one has triggered)
and have removed and disabled this unit. NB There have been no false
alarms during this 3 year period *from toasting/cooking/ or from the
mysterious cause until 2 weeks ago and then had 3 alarms in this last
2 weeks

Does anyone else have this problem?

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around 40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby (OK, I
know its not much compared to saving your life but.....)

Has anyone any recommendations for similar function units from *other
brands that have proved more reliable?

TIA
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian

Or dust.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:10:10 +0100, ianp5852 wrote:

Has anyone any recommendations for similar function units from other
brands that have proved more reliable?

We have six interlinked alarms. One heat rise, two optical and three
ionisation (I think). They've been installed since 2005, and are all
still going strong (actually, bar one which did keep triggering, at about
the 4 year mark).

They fit a bayonet-style pattress so it's a 2 minute job to change them.
They all use a PP3-style battery as backup.

Oh, Firex!

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:10:10 +0100, wrote:


I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them.

That is rather odd advice, is the building two storey and where are
the alarms located?

Ionisation tends to give earlier warning of the most dangerous night
time slow start fires which emit no smoke in the early stages so are
usually preferred over optical for a sole alarm.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game.

Spiders or other small insects setting up home inside them are a
common cause of optical alarms going off sporadically. This tends to
occur at this time of the year. Use a can of compressed gas (dust-off
or similar) to clean them out.

Batteries are temperature sensitive so when they start to fail they
will usually trigger the low battery (but usually not a full alarm)
early in the morning when the temperature is at its lowest. I
wouldn't expect that to be a problem at the moment unless nighttime
indoor temperatures where you are have been quite low. I assume the
interlink is by wire and not radio?

Does anyone else have this problem?

It isn't uncommon, having too many smoke detectors can be as dangerous
as having none - people get fed up with nuisance alarms and disable
them or ignore them. With one heat alarm over the cooker and one
ionisation alarms at the head of the stairs you have pretty good
cover. Bedroom sounders may be required if anyone in the house is
hard of hearing or habitually uses medication to help them sleep.

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around £40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby

There are a lot cheaper units around for example
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLSD141.html

The Lithium battery isn't really required in owner occupied premises.
Alkaline will be just as good if you change the battery every year or
when it reminds you every couple of years by starting to beep (at
3AM!) .

Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:10:10 +0100, wrote:


I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the
early hours of the morning) when there was no
cooking/ironing/smoking or anything triggering them.

That is rather odd advice, is the building two storey and where are
the alarms located?

Ionisation tends to give earlier warning of the most dangerous night
time slow start fires which emit no smoke in the early stages so are
usually preferred over optical for a sole alarm.

BS5839-6 2004 recommends optical smoke alarms in circulation spaces such as
hallways and landings.

Optical smoke alarms are more sensitive to smouldering fires than fast
buring fires and when used in a circulation space such as a hallway or
landing may give better protection than ionisation detectors if the fire is
some distance away.

--
Adam

Aico EI units are reliable, 9V alkaline duracell lasts nearly a
decade, 10yr or so life. A few online suppliers replace Kidde CO &
Smoke alarms with EI units.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:34:17 +0100, ARWadsworth wrote:

Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:10:10 +0100, wrote:


I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them.

That is rather odd advice, is the building two storey and where are the
alarms located?

Ionisation tends to give earlier warning of the most dangerous night
time slow start fires which emit no smoke in the early stages so are
usually preferred over optical for a sole alarm.

BS5839-6 2004 recommends optical smoke alarms in circulation spaces such
as hallways and landings.

Optical smoke alarms are more sensitive to smouldering fires than fast
buring fires and when used in a circulation space such as a hallway or
landing may give better protection than ionisation detectors if the fire
is some distance away.

Yes, I fitted optical in hallway and on upstairs landing (latter is L
shaped and long so I have one at the stairs end and one at the other end).

Ionisation in living room (two, because there's a deep beam down the
middle).

Heat rise in kitchen.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:34:17 +0100, ARWadsworth wrote:

Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:10:10 +0100, wrote:


I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1
off Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of
Kidde - about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually
in the early hours of the morning) when there was no
cooking/ironing/smoking or anything triggering them.

That is rather odd advice, is the building two storey and where are
the alarms located?

Ionisation tends to give earlier warning of the most dangerous night
time slow start fires which emit no smoke in the early stages so are
usually preferred over optical for a sole alarm.

BS5839-6 2004 recommends optical smoke alarms in circulation spaces
such as hallways and landings.

Optical smoke alarms are more sensitive to smouldering fires than
fast buring fires and when used in a circulation space such as a
hallway or landing may give better protection than ionisation
detectors if the fire is some distance away.

Yes, I fitted optical in hallway and on upstairs landing (latter is L
shaped and long so I have one at the stairs end and one at the other
end).

Ionisation in living room (two, because there's a deep beam down the
middle).

Heat rise in kitchen.

I would go for fixed temperature detector in a kitchen.

--
Adam

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:34:17 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

Peter Parry wrote:


Ionisation tends to give earlier warning of the most dangerous night
time slow start fires which emit no smoke in the early stages so are
usually preferred over optical for a sole alarm.

BS5839-6 2004 recommends optical smoke alarms in circulation spaces such as
hallways and landings.

The problem with standards is they try to make one size fit all.
Optical alarms detect smoke particles, ionisation alarms detect the
(effectively) gaseous products of combustion. If you put an
ionisation sensor on the ceiling at the top of the stairs (in a 2
storey house) it will alarm on a downstairs slow starting fire tens of
seconds before an optical alarm upstairs or downstairs. If you have
an ionisation and optical detector on the ceiling of a room in which a
fire starts the optical will alarm fractionally before the ionisation.

Optical smoke alarms are more sensitive to smouldering fires than fast
buring fires and when used in a circulation space such as a hallway or
landing may give better protection than ionisation detectors if the fire is
some distance away.

They don't, or at least in a month of trialling various detectors with
various fires they never did. It isn't enough to look at the alarm
technology alone - you also need to consider the way the products of
combustion spread from a fire throughout a house. The biggest risk
used to be the drunk with a cigarette on the settee. They fell
asleep, their fag went into the furniture, they died quite quickly and
the rest of the house followed. These days it is far more likely to
be something left on a stove or a heater left on. This sort of fire
tends to start with very little smoke, the initial combustion products
rise and set off the top of stairs alarm quite a time before anything
else reacts.

On Aug 23, 5:10*pm, wrote:
Hello All,
I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them. At this time the units were all about 3
years old. Kidde did not accept the units were faulty in any way but
did replace FOC.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game. I have been able to determine which
unit is at fault (this time the alarm continues for a period of 20 to
90 seconds giving time to run around and see which one has triggered)
and have removed and disabled this unit. NB There have been no false
alarms during this 3 year period *from toasting/cooking/ or from the
mysterious cause until 2 weeks ago and then had 3 alarms in this last
2 weeks

Does anyone else have this problem?

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around 40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby (OK, I
know its not much compared to saving your life but.....)

Has anyone any recommendations for similar function units from *other
brands that have proved more reliable?

TIA
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian

Hijacking the OP's post a bit - because there seems to be a lot of
good advice available...

My building is open-plan with a woodburner in the main space. It will
emit a little bit of smoke into the room occasionally if the wind is
in a particular direction (or more frequently when starting, with an
unfavourable wind).

What smoke detectors would be recommended?

On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 22:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


My building is open-plan with a woodburner in the main space. It will
emit a little bit of smoke into the room occasionally if the wind is
in a particular direction (or more frequently when starting, with an
unfavourable wind).

What smoke detectors would be recommended?

There isn't a simple answer as you need to start from where the
greatest risk is. That isn't necessarily the wood burning stove if
half the family smoke! Is the building one of more storeys? Are
sleeping areas compartmentalised (have doors) Are you talking about a
domestic house or something else?

As a start a heat (rate of rise) sensor fitted on the ceiling above
the area of the wood burning stove would be advisable as that is one
obvious area where an ember might escape, perhaps while topping it up,
and ignite something nearby. Don't forget the same for the other
major risk area of the kitchen.

Usually the next priority would be (in a two storey house) the ceiling
above the stairs void. If your open plan has a single large central
void with bedrooms off it you need to look at how air circulates.
Smoke matches and pellets are easily available (eg
http://www.screwfix.com/p/smoke-matches-tub-of-75/64177) and produce a
lot of smoke (too much really, you only want enough to follow air
currents to the smoke match is preferable to the pellet). Read the
instructions and evict the family and cat before using. See how the
smoke spreads from possible sources of ignition so stove area, cooking
area, washing area if you have a separate utility room. You will find
it will tend to follow predictable routes. Depending upon your roof
ventilation the top of the roof may not be the best place - sometimes
it forms a void of still air and the smoke stays underneath. Having
found where the smoke goes get a cheap battery operated ionisation
alarm and try it in that place to see if you get nuisance alarms. If
you get none go with an ionisation detector, if only a few an optical
sensor may work reliably - if you get a lot it won't and you will need
to rethink things.

Nuisance alarms are not false alarms - they are real alarms caused by
combustion products, but not by anything particularly risky - so
burning toast etc. The problem with them is that after a few people
get fed up and disable the alarm. That's fine if the next cause is
burnt toast, but not so wise if the next cause is the pan of oil
someone put on the stove and forgot which is now blazing away. Hence
too many alarms can be as bad as too few and minimising the level of
nuisance alarms is very important.

In article ,
writes:
Hello All,
I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them. At this time the units were all about 3
years old. Kidde did not accept the units were faulty in any way but
did replace FOC.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game. I have been able to determine which
unit is at fault (this time the alarm continues for a period of 20 to
90 seconds giving time to run around and see which one has triggered)
and have removed and disabled this unit. NB There have been no false
alarms during this 3 year period from toasting/cooking/ or from the
mysterious cause until 2 weeks ago and then had 3 alarms in this last
2 weeks

Does anyone else have this problem?

I had a Kidde optical battery alarm go off at 4am.
There was no one there at the time, but no sign of any fire
on returning, and none of the other 3 alarms (all ionising)
detected anything. It stopped after 35 seconds.

Although they are bog standard battery alarms, they are
actually all linked back to an alarm panel, so I have a
precise record of what happened. Never found the cause though.
It was about 6 weeks after testing them all with smoke detector
test spray (which reminds me, I haven't done that for over a
year now).

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around £40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby (OK, I
know its not much compared to saving your life but.....)

No.

Expected life is normally about 10 years, and that's mostly
about limiting dust build up in parts you can't clean. In a
more dusty location, maybe you should change more often.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...

Nuisance alarms are not false alarms - they are real alarms caused by
combustion products, but not by anything particularly risky - so
burning toast etc. The problem with them is that after a few people
get fed up and disable the alarm. That's fine if the next cause is
burnt toast, but not so wise if the next cause is the pan of oil
someone put on the stove and forgot which is now blazing away.

Been there, but the alarm went off before it caught fire.
That was in the early days when alarms were expensive (about 20-25 years
ago) and they were worth it then and are well worth the few quid they cost
now.

Hence
too many alarms can be as bad as too few and minimising the level of
nuisance alarms is very important.


IMO its best to remove the sources of the alarms not the alarms.
If the alarm goes off then its in a good position and smoke is getting
there.
(I dumped the gas fish fryer and bought an electric one.)

There isn't a simple answer as you need to start from where the
greatest risk is. *That isn't necessarily the wood burning stove if
half the family smoke! * Is the building one of more storeys? *Are
sleeping areas compartmentalised (have doors) Are you talking about a
domestic house or something else?

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated!

To go into more detail:

2 storeys, old chapel converted to domestic use.
All 4 bedrooms have doors, 2 upper floor, 2 lower floor - all open
into the open plan area (and have means of escape windows as well).

There's a modern oil-fired Rayburn in the kitchen (ground floor, with
doors) - which also has heat-sensitive cut-off valves for the oil

The upper floor smoke detector wiring is already behind plasterboard,
consists of single point outside the bedrooms, above one door - and
within 1.5m of the other door - also well exposed to the main space
with the woodburner.

The lower floor wiring could still easily be changed, and consists of
two points just inside and above the kitchen door (where I had planned
to fit a heat detector and a CO detector), - and one point under a
landing which is a natural catchpoint for smoke from the woodburner.

Another point the OP has drawn attention to - is placing them at a
height to make them accessible for cleaning - which is a particular
issue here.

Is it likely to be an effective solution (I would have to read up if
it meets regs) to have smoke detectors in each bedroom, and only a
heat detector in the main space with the woodburner?

I've just had a look at the cable routings, and changing to the above
plan wouldn't actually be too difficult.

Finally, what are the relative merits of rising-rate and fixed-point
heat detectors?

On Aug 24, 2:35*pm, wrote:

.....And shouldn't be a problem as mine are mains supplied. The
interlink is wire.

I had very strange symptoms with my Kidde alarms, and found it was due
to the neutral not making contact at one of the (interlinked) alarms.

All alarms still worked, and the nuisance beeping was neither a normal
"alarm", nor a low battery warning, nor localised (or even always
present!) at the poorly wired alarm.

Cheers,
David.

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:03:47 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


2 storeys, old chapel converted to domestic use.
All 4 bedrooms have doors, 2 upper floor, 2 lower floor - all open
into the open plan area (and have means of escape windows as well).

There's a modern oil-fired Rayburn in the kitchen (ground floor, with
doors) - which also has heat-sensitive cut-off valves for the oil

I'd certainly put a heat detector above that.

The upper floor smoke detector wiring is already behind plasterboard,
consists of single point outside the bedrooms, above one door - and
within 1.5m of the other door - also well exposed to the main space
with the woodburner.

The upper floor detectors are far more important than lower floor
ones, especially with a large void.

The lower floor wiring could still easily be changed, and consists of
two points just inside and above the kitchen door (where I had planned
to fit a heat detector and a CO detector), - and one point under a
landing which is a natural catchpoint for smoke from the woodburner.

I'd put a heat detector above the stove (not by the door). I'm not
sure why you want a CO alarm. Under the landing may be the location
which would produce nuisance alarms so try that with a battery unit
first.

Another point the OP has drawn attention to - is placing them at a
height to make them accessible for cleaning - which is a particular
issue here.

Yes - and they don't work well mounted on walls, you get a barrier
layer and smoke rises a few inches out from the wall.

Is it likely to be an effective solution (I would have to read up if
it meets regs) to have smoke detectors in each bedroom, and only a
heat detector in the main space with the woodburner?

Smoke detectors in bedrooms are only really useful if you have someone
who smokes in bed. If the door is closed it will alarm far too late
on a fire outside the room. (The other use for an interlinked alarm
inside a bedroom is simply to extend the alarm to wake people up - it
will never trigger on its own detector)

Finally, what are the relative merits of rising-rate and fixed-point
heat detectors?

Rising rate detect a fire a bit earlier on, they look for quite a fast
rise over a short time, typically about 10deg C a min. They don't
care what the absolute temperature is. They are good at detecting
things like chip pan fires or oil boiler fires.

Point detectors require a trip temperature to be reached. Usually
about 60-70 deg C. Point would usually be used in places like boiler
rooms which can have fast temperature variations in normal operation.
They are also appropriate in kitchens where there are high rates of
change of temperature (a cooker near a back door for example where the
door opening and closing can produce fast changes in temperature).

In message ,
writes
Hello All,
I have a mains powered - with 10-year lithium backup - interlinked
fire alarm system comprising of 3 off Optical Smoke alarms and 1 off
Heat alarm (for the kitchen)
I changed the 2 Ionisation alarms to optical on the advice of Kidde -
about 3 years ago after sporadic alarms occurred (usually in the early
hours of the morning) when there was no cooking/ironing/smoking or
anything triggering them. At this time the units were all about 3
years old. Kidde did not accept the units were faulty in any way but
did replace FOC.

Now, here I am a further 3 years on and one of the 'new' optical
alarms has started the same game. I have been able to determine which
unit is at fault (this time the alarm continues for a period of 20 to
90 seconds giving time to run around and see which one has triggered)
and have removed and disabled this unit. NB There have been no false
alarms during this 3 year period from toasting/cooking/ or from the
mysterious cause until 2 weeks ago and then had 3 alarms in this last
2 weeks

Does anyone else have this problem?

Should I expect the unit to need replacing at 3 yearly intervals? Each
alarm costs around £40 so this gets a fairly expensive hobby (OK, I
know its not much compared to saving your life but.....)

Has anyone any recommendations for similar function units from other
brands that have proved more reliable?

TIA
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian
I assume these are the smart 2SF23/9HIR series.
If so, your problem is well known to Kidde - who are a very reputable
company btw.
Ask them to replace them with their less attractive-looking Firex models
- it is understood that these do not suffer from the problem you report.
--
Roger