?OK, another strange and odd project

I want to have two wheels (hoops, bicycle wheels, whatever) rotating but
they are 90 degree to each other

They must rotate perfectly so that a single rotation of one wheel matches
that of the other.

so, I thought about adding teeth in a Windmill Cog and tooth kinda style,

then thought about putting a shaft through both and using a bevel 90 degree
gear on each

but, still unsure of the best way to go about this.

There are cheap ( £8) 90 degree drill extensions that I could use and one
end being the chuck would hold one of the shafts nicely

That's about as far as I've go so far

Any other Bulbs or brilliance from D-I-Y ?

TIA
--
Vass

Vass wrote:
?OK, another strange and odd project

I want to have two wheels (hoops, bicycle wheels, whatever) rotating but
they are 90 degree to each other

They must rotate perfectly so that a single rotation of one wheel matches
that of the other.

so, I thought about adding teeth in a Windmill Cog and tooth kinda style,

then thought about putting a shaft through both and using a bevel 90 degree
gear on each

but, still unsure of the best way to go about this.

There are cheap ( �8) 90 degree drill extensions that I could use and one
end being the chuck would hold one of the shafts nicely

That's about as far as I've go so far

Any other Bulbs or brilliance from D-I-Y ?

TIA
the only things that are guaranteed to phase lock, drive wise are gears,
toothed pulleys and timing belts or chains and sprockets.

Only gears do the right angled bit... although a flexi drive or a set of
UJ's will also do that.

On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:06:44 +0100, Vass wrote:

?OK, another strange and odd project

I want to have two wheels (hoops, bicycle wheels, whatever) rotating but
they are 90 degree to each other

They must rotate perfectly so that a single rotation of one wheel
matches that of the other.

so, I thought about adding teeth in a Windmill Cog and tooth kinda
style,

then thought about putting a shaft through both and using a bevel 90
degree gear on each

Hmm, those would work - it's the staying in sync part which rules out
belts, I would have thought.

Where does the vertical wheel sit relative to the horizontal one? That
may or may not rule out the possibility of a 45 degree shaft (and home-
made UJs or pegged gears) or even a flexible drive shaft made from some
suitable tubing (all depending on how heavy-duty and long-lived this
needs to be)

cheers

Jules

?"Jules Richardson" wrote in message ...

On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:06:44 +0100, Vass wrote:

?OK, another strange and odd project

I want to have two wheels (hoops, bicycle wheels, whatever) rotating but
they are 90 degree to each other

They must rotate perfectly so that a single rotation of one wheel
matches that of the other.

so, I thought about adding teeth in a Windmill Cog and tooth kinda
style,

then thought about putting a shaft through both and using a bevel 90
degree gear on each

Hmm, those would work - it's the staying in sync part which rules out
belts, I would have thought.

Where does the vertical wheel sit relative to the horizontal one? That
may or may not rule out the possibility of a 45 degree shaft (and home-
made UJs or pegged gears) or even a flexible drive shaft made from some
suitable tubing (all depending on how heavy-duty and long-lived this
needs to be)


the hoops are on the 45 degree angle ""

whats a UJ ?

Thanks
--
Vass

?

"Vass" wrote in message
. uk...

the hoops are on the 45 degree angle ""

hang on, lets clear this up a bit

imagine a vertical pole, then the hoops top of one and bottom of the other
touch the pole,
then as they rotate along each others path they travel around the pole.

so effectively you get this pattern path I

does that make sense?
--
Vass

?
hang on, lets clear this up a bit

imagine a vertical pole, then the hoops top of one and bottom of the other
touch the pole,
then as they rotate along each others path they travel around the pole.

so effectively you get this pattern path I

Diagram here

http://postimage.org/image/b2ql78p0/

"Vass" wrote in message
. uk...
?
hang on, lets clear this up a bit

imagine a vertical pole, then the hoops top of one and bottom of the other
touch the pole,
then as they rotate along each others path they travel around the pole.

so effectively you get this pattern path I

Diagram here

http://postimage.org/image/b2ql78p0/


will/can the lower wheel touch the surface below? if so could you rotate the
pole and "drag" the wheels around ? (the top wheel meshing with the bottom
one around the circumferences rather than the axles)?
Tho that would mean they rotate in opposite dxns.....

Jim K

On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:57:04 +0100, Vass wrote:

?
hang on, lets clear this up a bit

imagine a vertical pole, then the hoops top of one and bottom of the
other touch the pole,
then as they rotate along each others path they travel around the pole.

so effectively you get this pattern path I

Diagram here

http://postimage.org/image/b2ql78p0/

Jim makes a good point - are they supposed to rotate in the same
direction, or opposite directions?

How fast do they need to turn? Will people be trying to grab the wheels,
or are they free to rotate? How long does this need to last before it
falls apart? ;-) All of those could easily make a difference to the
choice of drive.

Oh, UJ = universal joint. Something from the power transmission for a
vehicle would be overkill, but maybe you'll find something smaller (say
1/2" or 3/4" shaft) from junk agricultural machinery - or if the speed
isn't too great, you could make your own...

Of course going with UJs might be overkill if just rustling up some
pegged gears out of wood is good enough...

cheers

Jules

"Jules Richardson" wrote in message ...


How fast do they need to turn? Will people be trying to grab the wheels,
or are they free to rotate? How long does this need to last before it
falls apart? ;-) All of those could easily make a difference to the
choice of drive.

Oh, UJ = universal joint. Something from the power transmission for a
vehicle would be overkill, but maybe you'll find something smaller (say
1/2" or 3/4" shaft) from junk agricultural machinery - or if the speed
isn't too great, you could make your own...

Of course going with UJs might be overkill if just rustling up some
pegged gears out of wood is good enough...



I think if they ran in different directions, the whole return to the same
position may be more difficult?

free rotation but only once, then the whole assembly will be move to a new
location and spun again
(it needs to be portable)

Do you remember the optical illusion of two hoops apparently spinning on
each other in Superman, Blakes 7 and other Sci-Fi films?
this was achieved with the hoops fixed and the whole thing spinning. I don't
want that, the wheels will be turning, the fixed point
will only be the central axis.

I thought maby having a disc in the middle to run the two wheels on

Imagine a spinnng top, as it falls over its base stays in once place, the
top is 45 degree leant over and its circumfrence is spinning just as I'd
like my wheels to move.

speed is another point, the rotation can be as slow as 1 revolution in 3
seconds, but I'm happy to move it manually

Ta follks... I'm sure we will get there

--
Vass

"Jim K" wrote in message
o.uk...


will/can the lower wheel touch the surface below? if so could you rotate the
pole and "drag" the wheels around ? (the top wheel meshing with the bottom
one around the circumferences rather than the axles)?
Tho that would mean they rotate in opposite dxns.....


a rotating pole would mean the speed of rotation would be very slow wouldn't
it ?
or have I missed your point? happy to discuss, it sounds like a solution
:-)

I'm happy to mesh the wheels at Circumference or axels so long as they
return to the same position at the end


Ta
--
Vass

"Jules Richardson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:57:04 +0100, Vass wrote:

?
hang on, lets clear this up a bit

imagine a vertical pole, then the hoops top of one and bottom of the
other touch the pole,
then as they rotate along each others path they travel around the pole.

so effectively you get this pattern path I

Diagram here

http://postimage.org/image/b2ql78p0/

Jim makes a good point - are they supposed to rotate in the same
direction, or opposite directions?

How fast do they need to turn? Will people be trying to grab the wheels,
or are they free to rotate? How long does this need to last before it
falls apart? ;-) All of those could easily make a difference to the
choice of drive.

Oh, UJ = universal joint. Something from the power transmission for a
vehicle would be overkill, but maybe you'll find something smaller (say
1/2" or 3/4" shaft) from junk agricultural machinery - or if the speed
isn't too great, you could make your own...

car steering columns from scrappies?

Jim K

"Vass" wrote in message
...


"Jim K" wrote in message
o.uk...


will/can the lower wheel touch the surface below? if so could you rotate
the
pole and "drag" the wheels around ? (the top wheel meshing with the bottom
one around the circumferences rather than the axles)?
Tho that would mean they rotate in opposite dxns.....


a rotating pole would mean the speed of rotation would be very slow
wouldn't it ?

er would it? presumably geared/powered as you wish "under the deck" it could
be made to run at whatever speed you wanted?

or have I missed your point? happy to discuss, it sounds like a solution
:-)

I'm happy to mesh the wheels at Circumference or axels so long as they
return to the same position at the end

what's "same position at the end"? i imagined this justgoing round and round
until power removed? as wheels does it matter exactly where they stop when
power is removed? how would anyone know they were "out of position" at the
"end"?

Jim K

?

"Jim K" wrote in message
o.uk...

what's "same position at the end"? i imagined this justgoing round and round
until power removed? as wheels does it matter exactly where they stop when
power is removed? how would anyone know they were "out of position" at the
"end"?

OK, I was trying to keep the use secret as there are many photographers out
there trying to solve this
and I want to get there first.

the gadget is for photography

you can get a DOME effect with one wheel easily enough, see here..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3508331...in/photostream

I want a complete BALL (ORB) by using two wheels

so you see, the wheels need to line up to make the light path match and look
like one complete movement
if they run out of line, it will be obvious they are two separate devices.

--
Vass

On Aug 1, 2:06*pm, "Vass" wrote:

I want to have two wheels (hoops, bicycle wheels, whatever) rotating but
they are 90 degree to each other

Shafts and a gearbox in the middle. Easy, if you can live with shafts.
A drill right-angle gearbox is probably the easiest linkage, if your
scrapbin is empty.

Another idea is stepper motors. You might want an opto sensor (the
bike tyre valve hole is convenient) and an Arduino or PIC to control
them. The advantage of this is flexible positioning of the wheels, as
you don't need a mechanical shaft linkage.

On Aug 1, 10:17 pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:

Of course going with UJs might be overkill if just rustling up some
pegged gears out of wood is good enough...

I've made peg and lantern gears out of wood before. One way takes a
laser cutter, the other takes a _lot_ of time.

"Vass" wrote in message
. uk...
?

"Jim K" wrote in message
o.uk...

what's "same position at the end"? i imagined this justgoing round and
round
until power removed? as wheels does it matter exactly where they stop when
power is removed? how would anyone know they were "out of position" at the
"end"?

OK, I was trying to keep the use secret as there are many photographers
out there trying to solve this
and I want to get there first.

the gadget is for photography

you can get a DOME effect with one wheel easily enough, see here..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3508331...in/photostream

I want a complete BALL (ORB) by using two wheels

so you see, the wheels need to line up to make the light path match and
look like one complete movement
if they run out of line, it will be obvious they are two separate devices.

mmm OK how about link the 2 axles/shafts with a 90deg drill thing. leave the
tyre on the bottom bike wheel to grip a surface and turn itslef and through
the 90deg also turn thing the top wheel (NB the wheel rims not touching now)

Either turn the shaft somehow or ?harder? power the lower wheel ("in hub"
bike dynamo going baclwards by battery?) and let it drive itself around?

if only 1 rotation is important?mmmm?
could the LEDs? be timed/switched off so that wheels can run down
independently ??

Jim K

On Aug 1, 10:17*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:57:04 +0100, Vass wrote:
?
hang on, lets clear this up a bit

imagine a vertical pole, then the hoops top of one and bottom of the
other touch the pole,
then as they rotate along each others path they travel around the pole.

so effectively you get this pattern path * * I

Diagram here

http://postimage.org/image/b2ql78p0/

Jim makes a good point - are they supposed to rotate in the same
direction, or opposite directions?

How fast do they need to turn? Will people be trying to grab the wheels,
or are they free to rotate? How long does this need to last before it
falls apart? ;-) All of those could easily make a difference to the
choice of drive.

Oh, UJ = universal joint. Something from the power transmission for a
vehicle would be overkill, but maybe you'll find something smaller (say
1/2" or 3/4" shaft) from junk agricultural machinery - or if the speed
isn't too great, you could make your own...

Of course going with UJs might be overkill if just rustling up some
pegged gears out of wood is good enough...

cheers

Jules

We're lacking a lot of relevant data.
- free running decoration, or a tougher load handling mechanism
needed?
- occasional use or daily use?
- are tooth edged wheels acceptable?
- 3rpm or 3000?

One simple option if you're using bicycle wheels would be to attach a
sprocket onto the end of a shaft on each wheel, and let the 2
sprockets mesh. Good for low power work only though, the contact
surfaces will be all wrong for power transmission.


NT

Vass wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3508331...in/photostream

I want a complete BALL (ORB) by using two wheels

Couldn't you use a single wheel, mounted in a set of vertical forks?,
then spin the wheel horizontally on the axle while simultaneously
rotating the forks around the vertical axis?

Presumably you'd want the forks to be made of wire rather than normal
bike tube to minimise the amount of intereference with the light source.

On Tue, 02 Aug 2011 02:01:50 -0700, Andy Dingley wrote:

On Aug 1, 2:06Â*pm, "Vass" wrote:

I want to have two wheels (hoops, bicycle wheels, whatever) rotating
but they are 90 degree to each other

Shafts and a gearbox in the middle. Easy, if you can live with shafts. A
drill right-angle gearbox is probably the easiest linkage, if your
scrapbin is empty.

I like the right-angle gearbox idea, otherwise a couple of UJs top and
bottom. Vass - I'm not quite clear if this is also supposed to rotate
around the vertical pole under power, or if that aspect is done manually?

Another idea is stepper motors. You might want an opto sensor (the bike
tyre valve hole is convenient) and an Arduino or PIC to control them.
The advantage of this is flexible positioning of the wheels, as you
don't need a mechanical shaft linkage.

That thought had crossed my mind, too - but the mention of bike wheels
implies something perhaps too heavy for readily-found steppers to turn
(not particularly fast either, which may or may not be a problem)

I suspect that a bit of TTL would do for control, so wouldn't necessarily
need a micro and programming ability.

cheers

Jules

?

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
news:wfmdnWq_JOBTnaXTnZ2dnUVZ7vadnZ2d@brightview. co.uk...

Vass wrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3508331...in/photostream

I want a complete BALL (ORB) by using two wheels

Couldn't you use a single wheel, mounted in a set of vertical forks?,
then spin the wheel horizontally on the axle while simultaneously
rotating the forks around the vertical axis?

Presumably you'd want the forks to be made of wire rather than normal
bike tube to minimise the amount of intereference with the light source.


unfortunately this gives vertical lines which I dont want this time
see this....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/canon-eos/4328493960/