Hi,

been getting some useful info. from Christian McArdle and Andy Hall about my
impending ring circuit.

Christian has given me a rundown on what is needed to correctly check a new
circuit, requiring £600+ worth of equipment.

However http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#ring-test appears to give a
much simpler method from another Andy (Wade).

It seems unreasonable to expect every DIYer adding new wiring to cough up
£600+ for specialised equipment, so what is the recommendation?

Always use a qualified electrician?
[If so, what would you expect the normal charge to be?]

Use the Andy Wade method?
[If so, how much and where for a low resistance ohm-meter with good
resolution, say a range of 0 - 2 ohms with divisions of 0.05 ohm?]

Nah, she'll be right!
[Carefully connect and check (visually and mechanically) each socket on the
ring, before connecting the whole thing into the CU.]

I appreciate what Christian is saying about the correct (professional
sparky) way of doing things, but what are the risks of a careful
installation without fancy test tools?

I am talking here about an all-new installation.
Adding to an existing installation which you didn't do is another level of
risk - probably better to have the whole house checked before you start.
Note that my house electrics were checked when the new CU was installed.

Additional question - what are the implications of adding one or more
sockets to an existing ring (in line or as a spur)?
Adding lighting, bathroom fans, etc.?

Should you again have the whole thing checked by a pro. sparky?

Cheers
Dave R


--

Always use a qualified electrician?

From April, it will be illegal. All new electrical circuits will have to be
properly tested by a NICEIC installer or building control. Apparently,
no-one has told building control and the statutory impact assessment was a
stitch up.

[If so, what would you expect the normal charge to be?]

Given that in the midst of a shortage of labour, they are about to ban 3/4
of current electricians and make it illegal to form a new electrical
company, I would suggest around 500 pounds per hour.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Always use a qualified electrician?

From April, it will be illegal. All new electrical circuits will have to
be
properly tested by a NICEIC installer or building control. Apparently,
no-one has told building control and the statutory impact assessment was a
stitch up.

[If so, what would you expect the normal charge to be?]

Given that in the midst of a shortage of labour, they are about to ban 3/4
of current electricians and make it illegal to form a new electrical
company, I would suggest around 500 pounds per hour.

Christian.

You missed off - but I'm not bitter........:-)

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Always use a qualified electrician?

From April, it will be illegal. All new electrical circuits will have to
be
properly tested by a NICEIC installer or building control. Apparently,
no-one has told building control and the statutory impact assessment was a
stitch up.

[If so, what would you expect the normal charge to be?]

Given that in the midst of a shortage of labour, they are about to ban 3/4
of current electricians and make it illegal to form a new electrical
company, I would suggest around 500 pounds per hour.


er....me again......

Just how the hell are they going to police this?

Withdraw all electrical equipment from sale, or require all sales to
non-NICEIC people to be registered for duture inspection?

Sound of a seriously boggling mind......

Just how the hell are they going to police this?

Withdraw all electrical equipment from sale, or require all sales to
non-NICEIC people to be registered for duture inspection?

No they're going to change the colour of the cable, so if you have the new
colours, you should have a bit of paper to go with it.

You think I'm joking, don't you?

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Just how the hell are they going to police this?

Withdraw all electrical equipment from sale, or require all sales to
non-NICEIC people to be registered for duture inspection?

No they're going to change the colour of the cable, so if you have the new
colours, you should have a bit of paper to go with it.

You think I'm joking, don't you?

So, worth buying a huge job-lot of cable to make sure you've got enough
cable for every possible installation you can think of in the next 20 years?


D

In article ,
David W.E. Roberts wrote:
Should you again have the whole thing checked by a pro. sparky?

If you've been careful and thorough in your workmanship, using good
materials, the chances of any faults are near zero.

You can check for any shorts or open circuits with a DVM - this will show
up any howlers.

Although it's nice to have the proper test gear and I'm sure it's
sensible, people managed for many years without.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:01:24 -0000, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

Additional question - what are the implications of adding one or more
sockets to an existing ring (in line or as a spur)?
Adding lighting, bathroom fans, etc.?

The new regs to come into force from April advise that any work
undertaken in either a kitchen or bathroom is subject to the regs, and
thus a certificate should be issued after testing has taken place.

Should you again have the whole thing checked by a pro. sparky?

You most likely won't have much choice in the matter. The problem is
going to be be finding a qualified sparky after next April. They look
to me as though their diaries are going to be brimming, and an
inescapable consequence of this is that their rates will be high.

This all feeds through on dear old Gordons inflation index in due
course, but why should he care? By the time the crap hits the fan
he'll be out of the chancellors job and some other wally will have to
pick it up.

PoP

"David Hearn" wrote
| "Christian McArdle" wrote
| No they're going to change the colour of the cable, so if you
| have the new colours, you should have a bit of paper to go with it.
| You think I'm joking, don't you?
| So, worth buying a huge job-lot of cable to make sure you've got enough
| cable for every possible installation you can think of in the next 20
| years?
|

Ah, but when you come to sell your house, all the "old" work will have to be
inspected by an electrician anyway because it's "old".

Owain

er....me again......

Just how the hell are they going to police this?

Withdraw all electrical equipment from sale, or require all sales to
non-NICEIC people to be registered for duture inspection?

I am not CORGI registered, I am not a plumber, I know nothing about gas
supplies (apart from what I have read in this group), and yet I can walk
into any plumbing merchants and buy a boiler and all the parts to connect it
up to a gas supply. Nothing will be different with the electricity regs.

--
Adam

and yet I can walk into any plumbing merchants and buy a boiler
and all the parts to connect it up to a gas supply.

Indeed. I've just done this very thing. I'm not fitting it, though! No one
has once asked me if I am qualified to fit any of it.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
and yet I can walk into any plumbing merchants and buy a boiler
and all the parts to connect it up to a gas supply.

Indeed. I've just done this very thing. I'm not fitting it, though! No one
has once asked me if I am qualified to fit any of it.

Christian.

If they were forced to ask, most merchants would lose a good slice of their
business.

--
Adam

In article , Christian
McArdle writes
From April, it will be illegal.
Illegal as in bash door down in a suspected drug dealer stylee, or just a
statutory requirement of Building Regulations. I have the feeling it is the
latter, so could we perhaps remove a little 'drama' from the discussion . . .
--
fred

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"David Hearn" wrote
| "Christian McArdle" wrote
| No they're going to change the colour of the cable, so if you
| have the new colours, you should have a bit of paper to go with it.
| You think I'm joking, don't you?
| So, worth buying a huge job-lot of cable to make sure you've got enough
| cable for every possible installation you can think of in the next 20
| years?
|

Ah, but when you come to sell your house, all the "old" work will have to
be
inspected by an electrician anyway because it's "old".

Owain


Not at the moment you won't.

And what will the outcome be? "Not to current regs".

reckon that description fits 99% of the s/h housing market.

In a depressed market a buyer can get a survey and use it as a bargaining
point to force the price down. In the current market, I'd laugh if they
tried to do that and point them towards the nice new-builds down the road.

cheers
Richard


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

In article , Christian
McArdle writes

No they're going to change the colour of the cable,

To what?

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:25:10 -0000, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

Just how the hell are they going to police this?

One method is already in place and can be easily extended.

When a hous comes up for sale the buyers solicitor issues a
questionaire running to several pages. To this can be added questions
like "has any work of any nature been carried out to any part of the
electrical system to your knowledge?".

If the answer is yes then the follow-up will be "please add the
certificates for the work to this questionaire".

If the answer is no then the current homeowner would be held liable in
the event that work was carried out and not notified.

PoP

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:55:44 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:

Although it's nice to have the proper test gear and I'm sure it's
sensible, people managed for many years without.

Agreed. But then those earlier situations did not take account of
increased stupidity in government.

PoP

In uk.d-i-y, Dave Plowman wrote:

Although it's nice to have the proper test gear and I'm sure it's
sensible, people managed for many years without.

Seconded. Working on your own time, not rushing things, and knowing you
have your and your family's welfare at stake, you're more likely to do
a good job than many electricians doing "small works". (As I understand
it, commercial work usually pays a lot better than small domestic jobs,
so it's that much harder to get a competent, pride-in-work person to do
small domestic jobs. Far from impossible, but a pain.) A little trip
along the new ring (before it's powered up!) with a Long Long extension
cable plugged into the first socket on the ring (leave the two ends
at the CU unconnected), working in sequence and checking for continuity
between the terminals at your sockets and those at the end of the
extension, will indepedently confirm you have the right connections
made; and if you have a low-ohms reading meter, you should be able to
see the resistance rise steadily as you work your way further along
the ring. That, on top of the FAQ procedure (which is lifted from the
On-Site Guide), will be plenty.

There's an affordable piece of "quick-check" gear on the market these
days which I find worth having: it's an update of the old "three neons
wired between the three pins" jobbie, which includes a basic
earth-loop-impedance check. RS sell them at the usual "full-RRP-plus"
price as stocknum 436-3456 for 50 quid, so you can probably find them
at your friendly electrical trade counter for about 35 quid. (Sparkies
will instantly recognise the sound as "the first Martindale of spring" ;-)
They'll give a within-10% indication of the earth loop impedance being
in one of 6 bands: 0-1.7, 1.7-5, 5-10, 10-100, 100-200, 200-500 ohms;
anything over the first two bands is, like, Wrong (even a value over
1.7ohms is cause for some concern). This is not a precision earth
impedance checker, but to check your own wiring or that of a house
you've just moved in to it's not a bad bit of kit. Obviously, it works
on sockets which are powered up, so you do your own multimeter and
visual checks on new wiring *first*!

HTH, Stefek

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:25:10 -0000, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

Just how the hell are they going to police this?

One method is already in place and can be easily extended.

When a hous comes up for sale the buyers solicitor issues a
questionaire running to several pages. To this can be added questions
like "has any work of any nature been carried out to any part of the
electrical system to your knowledge?".

If the answer is yes then the follow-up will be "please add the
certificates for the work to this questionaire".

If the answer is no then the current homeowner would be held liable in
the event that work was carried out and not notified.

PoP

However it will be difficult 5 years down the line to prove if the work was
done prior to the regulation change, or after it.

So no certificate required because it was done 'before the change'.

As suggested, stock up on your old style wiring now!

Cheers
Dave R

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Just how the hell are they going to police this?

Withdraw all electrical equipment from sale, or require all sales to
non-NICEIC people to be registered for duture inspection?

No they're going to change the colour of the cable, so if you have the
new
colours, you should have a bit of paper to go with it.

You think I'm joking, don't you?

So, worth buying a huge job-lot of cable to make sure you've got enough
cable for every possible installation you can think of in the next 20
years?


Nah - one reel will do.
Just add a bit to the end of each cable run, using a choc bloc wrapped in
insulation tape, and the ends will look Kosher.

No problem.
Dave R

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article , Christian
McArdle writes

No they're going to change the colour of the cable,

To what?

For single phase a.c.

Live (was red) will now be brown
Neutral (was black) will now be blue
Earth (green or bare copper) will now be green and yellow

Cheers
Clive

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:24:16 UTC, wrote:

There's an affordable piece of "quick-check" gear on the market these
days which I find worth having: it's an update of the old "three neons
wired between the three pins" jobbie, which includes a basic
earth-loop-impedance check. RS sell them at the usual "full-RRP-plus"
price as stocknum 436-3456 for 50 quid

For insulation/continuity, what do people think about this, at 89 quid
from TLC?

http://tinyurl.com/ti8t

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:24:16 UTC, wrote:

There's an affordable piece of "quick-check" gear on the market these
days which I find worth having: it's an update of the old "three neons
wired between the three pins" jobbie, which includes a basic
earth-loop-impedance check. RS sell them at the usual "full-RRP-plus"
price as stocknum 436-3456 for 50 quid

For insulation/continuity, what do people think about this, at 89 quid
from TLC?

http://tinyurl.com/ti8t

or this one (Stefek mentioned it)
http://www.martindale-electric.co.uk/EZE150.pdf

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:19:37 UTC, "Chris Oates" none wrote:

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:24:16 UTC, wrote:

There's an affordable piece of "quick-check" gear on the market these
days which I find worth having: it's an update of the old "three neons
wired between the three pins" jobbie, which includes a basic
earth-loop-impedance check. RS sell them at the usual "full-RRP-plus"
price as stocknum 436-3456 for 50 quid

For insulation/continuity, what do people think about this, at 89 quid
from TLC?

http://tinyurl.com/ti8t

or this one (Stefek mentioned it)
http://www.martindale-electric.co.uk/EZE150.pdf

I know he did (I did quote him!). But that's not the same thing....he
was showing an inexpensive way to check earth loop impedance. The item I
mentioned is complementary, not a replacement - the other major part of
the equation.

I've not seen anything else at this price, so opinions are welcome.

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

In uk.d-i-y, Bob Eager wrote:

For insulation/continuity, what do people think about this, at 89 quid
from TLC?

For insulation, it's useful, I s'pose; but the more significant problems
on domestic circuits are likely to need low-ohms metering rather than
hi-ohms (you want to tell the difference between a solid and a partial
screw connection; to tell the difference between the two legs of a ring;
and so on). The kit you mention doesn't seem to do that - though the
much pricier 255-quid-plus-VAT thing below does. All-in-one meters with
low-ohms ranges are a bit thin on the ground, but Fluke do a mid-price
one (same sort of price as the insulation tester you mention) which does
a reasonable 20-ohms-full-scale, 0.01 nominal resolution, as do Wavetek
(T120B - or at least they did ;-) For Regs-conformant-final-testing a
200mA test current is needed; I don't think these multis do that, but
they're cheaper than the Robins/Seaward and so on things.

(Pauses to flick through RS catalogue) Hmm, not many cheaper "low ohms"
meters to be found here, in fact a dearth. For those with a bit of
electrickal skill, making up a Wheatstone bridge with a decade or
binary box of low-value reference resistors might be a more affordable
way of doing Low Ohmage, as might the more direct route of creating a
200mA constant-current source (hey, may as well use the current the
Regs tell us to!) capable of developing, say, 10V, then use the
"normal" low-voltage sensitivity of even a cheapie multimeter (2V
full scale, nominal 1mV sensitivity) to measure the voltage dropped:
each 200mV means 1 ohm, thus allowing quite reasonable sensitivity.
Absolute accuracy will be poor, granted; but you'd certainly be able
to do the ring-resistance tests with such a rig, and you can calibrate
with a decent 0.5ohm wirewound or similar...

Stefek, rambling on.

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:55:51 UTC, wrote:

In uk.d-i-y, Bob Eager wrote:

For insulation/continuity, what do people think about this, at 89 quid
from TLC?

For insulation, it's useful, I s'pose; but the more significant problems
on domestic circuits are likely to need low-ohms metering rather than
hi-ohms

I agree. The spec sheet (downloadable via link in corner) says there are
four ranges, the fourth being:

OHMS:
Range . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.. . .20 Ohms
Resolution . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0.01 Ohms
(ñ1%)
Max open circuit voltage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.4.2V
Short circuit current . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=200mA @ 2 Ohms

(or am I misunderstanding this spec)

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
and yet I can walk into any plumbing merchants and buy a boiler
and all the parts to connect it up to a gas supply.

Indeed. I've just done this very thing. I'm not fitting it, though! No
one
has once asked me if I am qualified to fit any of it.

Christian.

If they were forced to ask, most merchants would lose a good slice of
their
business.


Adam


LOL

Especially from regulars I would imagine. :-))


---
www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.535 / Virus Database: 330 - Release Date: 01/11/03

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:55:51 UTC, wrote:

In uk.d-i-y, Bob Eager wrote:

For insulation/continuity, what do people think about this, at 89 quid
from TLC?

For insulation, it's useful, I s'pose; but the more significant problems
on domestic circuits are likely to need low-ohms metering rather than
hi-ohms

I agree. The spec sheet (downloadable via link in corner) says there are
four ranges, the fourth being:

OHMS:
Range . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . .20 Ohms
Resolution . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0.01 Ohms
(ñ1%)
Max open circuit voltage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.4.2V
Short circuit current . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=200mA @ 2 Ohms

(or am I misunderstanding this spec)

No - I think Stefak missed that bit

In article ,
wrote:
For those with a bit of electrickal skill, making up a Wheatstone bridge
with a decade or binary box of low-value reference resistors might be a
more affordable way of doing Low Ohmage, as might the more direct route
of creating a 200mA constant-current source (hey, may as well use the
current the Regs tell us to!) capable of developing, say, 10V, then use
the "normal" low-voltage sensitivity of even a cheapie multimeter (2V
full scale, nominal 1mV sensitivity) to measure the voltage dropped:
each 200mV means 1 ohm, thus allowing quite reasonable sensitivity.
Absolute accuracy will be poor, granted; but you'd certainly be able to
do the ring-resistance tests with such a rig, and you can calibrate with
a decent 0.5ohm wirewound or similar...

Trouble is, don't such things have to have a calibration certificate to
pass regs? And getting a one off checked would likely cost more than
buying a commercial version. Unless self certification is allowed...

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:58:58 -0000, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

Just add a bit to the end of each cable run, using a choc bloc wrapped in
insulation tape, and the ends will look Kosher.

Hmm, I think I've worked on some of your installations previously

PoP

In uk.d-i-y, Bob Eager wrote:

I agree. The spec sheet (downloadable via link in corner) says there are
four ranges, the fourth being:

OHMS:
Range . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . .20 Ohms
Resolution . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0.01 Ohms
(?1%)
Max open circuit voltage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.4.2V
Short circuit current . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=200mA @ 2 Ohms

(or am I misunderstanding this spec)

D'oh! I certainly did miss that - I'd say you've hit on an excellent
cheapie; not a day-in day-out commissioning tool, but a non-ludicrously
priced conscientious DIY'ers tool. Nice!

Stefek

In uk.d-i-y, Dave Plowman wrote:

Trouble is, don't such things have to have a calibration certificate to
pass regs? And getting a one off checked would likely cost more than
buying a commercial version. Unless self certification is allowed...

I expect they do. It's all about why we're wanting to "pass regs". If
it's to get a bit of paper to keep the H&S mafia or the buyer's solicitor
off our backs, a test cert for the whole installation from someone who
does the job for a living and has paid the right baksheesh, I mean trade
association membership fee, is what you need.

If, however, you're wanting to be regs-conformant so that the work you
perform is safe to your own satisfaction and so that you can with a clear
conscience assert that your d-i-y work is at least as competent as that
normally done by a practising professional, while still keeping your
spend on use-once-a-year test gear down to sensible proportions, then
knocking up something with which to confirm you didn't fall victim to
a short bout of narcolepsy while thinking you'd tightened up one of
the screws in your new sockets is an eminently reasonabubble use of
resources...

Stefek

Hello Dave,

I recently added a new ring crircuit for my kitchen and tested it with one
of these:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=14350

I am quite staisfied with this minimal testing and sleep easy at nights.
When I come to sell my house I plan to deny doing any work on it at all.

John


"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...
Hi,

been getting some useful info. from Christian McArdle and Andy Hall about
my
impending ring circuit.

Christian has given me a rundown on what is needed to correctly check a
new
circuit, requiring £600+ worth of equipment.

However http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#ring-test appears to give
a
much simpler method from another Andy (Wade).

It seems unreasonable to expect every DIYer adding new wiring to cough up
£600+ for specialised equipment, so what is the recommendation?

Always use a qualified electrician?
[If so, what would you expect the normal charge to be?]

Use the Andy Wade method?
[If so, how much and where for a low resistance ohm-meter with good
resolution, say a range of 0 - 2 ohms with divisions of 0.05 ohm?]

Nah, she'll be right!
[Carefully connect and check (visually and mechanically) each socket on
the
ring, before connecting the whole thing into the CU.]

I appreciate what Christian is saying about the correct (professional
sparky) way of doing things, but what are the risks of a careful
installation without fancy test tools?

I am talking here about an all-new installation.
Adding to an existing installation which you didn't do is another level of
risk - probably better to have the whole house checked before you start.
Note that my house electrics were checked when the new CU was installed.

Additional question - what are the implications of adding one or more
sockets to an existing ring (in line or as a spur)?
Adding lighting, bathroom fans, etc.?

Should you again have the whole thing checked by a pro. sparky?

Cheers
Dave R


--

"John Greenwood" wrote in message
. ..
Hello Dave,

I recently added a new ring crircuit for my kitchen and tested it with one
of these:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=14350

I am quite staisfied with this minimal testing and sleep easy at nights.
When I come to sell my house I plan to deny doing any work on it at all.

John

That looks scarily like my trusty rusty multimeter.

More sophisticated than a wet thumb and a nose for the smell of burning
insulation :-)

Cheers
Dave R

P.S. there is a scary lack of demand for the lynching of top posters - has
the newsgroup gone soft?

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:59:02 UTC, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

That looks scarily like my trusty rusty multimeter.

I've got one of those!

But I've also ordered the insulation/continuity tester from TLC - let's
see what it's like.

P.S. there is a scary lack of demand for the lynching of top posters - has
the newsgroup gone soft?

No, we just send the hitmen round these days...!

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

In article ,
wrote:
If, however, you're wanting to be regs-conformant so that the work you
perform is safe to your own satisfaction and so that you can with a clear
conscience assert that your d-i-y work is at least as competent as that
normally done by a practising professional, while still keeping your
spend on use-once-a-year test gear down to sensible proportions, then
knocking up something with which to confirm you didn't fall victim to
a short bout of narcolepsy while thinking you'd tightened up one of
the screws in your new sockets is an eminently reasonabubble use of
resources...

Agreed. In The Good Old Days, Maplin would have had a kit for one. I've
got a few bits of Maplin kit test gear I still use.

An alternative, of course, is secondhand from Ebay.

--
*Dance like nobody's watching.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn