One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

MM

MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

MM
the only solution is better wood selection.

MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

Buy only timber that's been planed to size *after* the humidity in it
has settled to that of your room. If it come in sealed plastic wrapping,
it will almost inevitably warp, IME.

Or go to a decent woodyard, not one of the sheds. Banana shaped timber
is endemic from the DIY sheds, which is why I don't use them unless the
result is (a) hidden and (b) strength is not important.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sun, 08 May 2011 16:40:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

MM
the only solution is better wood selection.

How? The wood was dead flat in the store.

MM

On 08/05/2011 16:40, John Williamson wrote:
MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

Buy only timber that's been planed to size *after* the humidity in it
has settled to that of your room. If it come in sealed plastic wrapping,
it will almost inevitably warp, IME.

Or go to a decent woodyard, not one of the sheds. Banana shaped timber
is endemic from the DIY sheds, which is why I don't use them unless the
result is (a) hidden and (b) strength is not important.


Yep, buy from a timber merchant. Shrink wrapping prevents the wood from
losing moisture so that it stays flat until you open it.
Proper merchants store their prepared timber upright and under cover, so
that it's outdoors but doesn't get rained on.

On May 8, 4:34*pm, MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

MM

If its wood on view, you can plane or sand it flat, but leave it for
many months to stabilise first. If its just slat material, no need to
do anything.


NT

On Sun, 08 May 2011 16:40:35 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

Buy only timber that's been planed to size *after* the humidity in it
has settled to that of your room. If it come in sealed plastic wrapping,
it will almost inevitably warp, IME.

Or go to a decent woodyard, not one of the sheds. Banana shaped timber
is endemic from the DIY sheds, which is why I don't use them unless the
result is (a) hidden and (b) strength is not important.

and c) money no object?

I priced up a project recently using standard lengths and standard
sheets from a shed and the cost came to around £200. I took my cutting
list to my local timber yard where the materials, cut to size, were
then delivered to my door for £86.

Nick

In message , stuart noble
wrote

Yep, buy from a timber merchant. Shrink wrapping prevents the wood from
losing moisture so that it stays flat until you open it.
Proper merchants store their prepared timber upright and under cover,
so that it's outdoors but doesn't get rained on.


But it is transported from places like Scandinavia on the decks of
ships, stored open to the elements on dockside timber yards and I've
never seen it covered on the lorries delivering it. Perhaps the problem
is actually storing it in heated DIY sheds rather than storing it
outside or in an unheated facility.
--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Alan wrote:
In message , stuart noble
wrote

Yep, buy from a timber merchant. Shrink wrapping prevents the wood
from losing moisture so that it stays flat until you open it.
Proper merchants store their prepared timber upright and under cover,
so that it's outdoors but doesn't get rained on.


But it is transported from places like Scandinavia on the decks of
ships, stored open to the elements on dockside timber yards and I've
never seen it covered on the lorries delivering it. Perhaps the problem
is actually storing it in heated DIY sheds rather than storing it
outside or in an unheated facility.

The woodyards I buy from tend to import it as sawn roughly to size, then
they leave it for a while under cover and finish it on site. They may
even be kiln drying some of it before working on it.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"MM" wrote in message
...
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?



This happens a greater or lesser degree depending on species of wood, how it
was stored and importantly how it was cut from log (quarter sawn etc)

When I built my place I wanted to make sure all my custom moulded
skirting's, fascias etc. stayed true .... I had anti cupping grooves
machined into the back on them.
Longitudinal slots about 4mm wide x 5mm deep .... 3 slots along all
lengths.

On Sun, 08 May 2011 19:51:59 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 08/05/2011 16:40, John Williamson wrote:
MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

Buy only timber that's been planed to size *after* the humidity in it
has settled to that of your room. If it come in sealed plastic wrapping,
it will almost inevitably warp, IME.

Or go to a decent woodyard, not one of the sheds. Banana shaped timber
is endemic from the DIY sheds, which is why I don't use them unless the
result is (a) hidden and (b) strength is not important.


Yep, buy from a timber merchant. Shrink wrapping prevents the wood from
losing moisture so that it stays flat until you open it.
Proper merchants store their prepared timber upright and under cover, so
that it's outdoors but doesn't get rained on.

Two of the timber merchants I know both store their timber flat, in
stacks. But, yes, outdoors under cover (although in one case the
"shed" is open to the elements from the front).

MM

On Sun, 8 May 2011 22:41:19 +0100, "Rick Hughes"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
.. .
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?



This happens a greater or lesser degree depending on species of wood, how it
was stored and importantly how it was cut from log (quarter sawn etc)

When I built my place I wanted to make sure all my custom moulded
skirting's, fascias etc. stayed true .... I had anti cupping grooves
machined into the back on them.
Longitudinal slots about 4mm wide x 5mm deep .... 3 slots along all
lengths.

I thought of doing exactly that, though only one slot. But in the end
I decided the degree of cupping was so minor as to not worry about it.
Later this week I'll put some pics on my web site so you can see
whether you can see it!

MM

On 09/05/2011 09:58, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 May 2011 19:51:59 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 08/05/2011 16:40, John Williamson wrote:
MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

Buy only timber that's been planed to size *after* the humidity in it
has settled to that of your room. If it come in sealed plastic wrapping,
it will almost inevitably warp, IME.

Or go to a decent woodyard, not one of the sheds. Banana shaped timber
is endemic from the DIY sheds, which is why I don't use them unless the
result is (a) hidden and (b) strength is not important.


Yep, buy from a timber merchant. Shrink wrapping prevents the wood from
losing moisture so that it stays flat until you open it.
Proper merchants store their prepared timber upright and under cover, so
that it's outdoors but doesn't get rained on.

Two of the timber merchants I know both store their timber flat, in
stacks. But, yes, outdoors under cover (although in one case the
"shed" is open to the elements from the front).

MM

They tend to store construction material flat, but prepared softwood can
be up to 5 metres long, so that method wouldn't be very practical.

On 08/05/2011 21:49, John Williamson wrote:
Alan wrote:
In message , stuart noble
wrote

Yep, buy from a timber merchant. Shrink wrapping prevents the wood
from losing moisture so that it stays flat until you open it.
Proper merchants store their prepared timber upright and under cover,
so that it's outdoors but doesn't get rained on.


But it is transported from places like Scandinavia on the decks of
ships, stored open to the elements on dockside timber yards and I've
never seen it covered on the lorries delivering it. Perhaps the
problem is actually storing it in heated DIY sheds rather than storing
it outside or in an unheated facility.

The woodyards I buy from tend to import it as sawn roughly to size, then
they leave it for a while under cover and finish it on site. They may
even be kiln drying some of it before working on it.

The norm is that the mill routinely dries the material to 17% moisture
content (at which point it's no longer vulnerable to the dreaded blue
stain) with a huge travelling hair dryer, and that's how it normally
arrives in UK. Storage under cover with good air circulation can reduce
this to 15% in summer, but that's about as dry as it gets outdoors.

Drying it further (secondary kilning) is reckoned to be a bad idea, so
most furniture manufacturers will specify a moisture content direct from
the mill and have it shipped in a container. That way it's taken from
green to, say, 10% in one kilning, but it's a long and expensive process
when the material is tight grained. An Ikea bed slat can be dried much
faster because it's fast grown and open grained

The basic problem is that softwood used indoors will end up at 10% but
there is nowhere you can buy it that dry. You just hope that the better
stuff will shrink in an orderly fashion and not distort as it dries.
There is a lot to be said for laminated pine boards in that respect.

On May 8, 6:03*pm, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 May 2011 16:40:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:
MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

MM
the only solution is better wood selection.

How? The wood was dead flat in the store.

MM

They are held flat by the pack and by being bound to others with
packing strip. Also the pack keeps in the humidity.
When they dry out the bend and cup. B&Q is the worst.
Wood from timber yards is better, but in my experience is getting
worse.
I had a load of 2x4 that was all slightly cupped - got away with it on
stud walling though.
I forget to fix one stud at the bottom against the wall and it twisted
out of plane with the wall.

In the old days, timber was naturally dried and seasoned, then cut and
planed when it had finished moving. Also timber now is cut from fast
grown narrow trunks so the grain has a log smaller radius and more
prone to twisting / cupping.

If you can use the timber quickly and it is held in place it will not
twist, but I'm not sure if when unbound after drying it would "spring"
into its desired twisted shape.

When I put in some timber joists recently (75mm x 225mm) a couple were
slightly twisted along the length. Before I put the ceiling up you
could see a wonky engineering brick underneath ... a the wonky end of
the joist !

A lot of builders are using TJI / engineered joists since they do not
suffer from this.

General building timber is in general getting poorer quality in my
experience.

Simon.

sm_jamieson wrote:
On May 8, 6:03 pm, MM wrote:
On Sun, 08 May 2011 16:40:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:
MM wrote:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.
But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?
MM
the only solution is better wood selection.
How? The wood was dead flat in the store.

MM

They are held flat by the pack and by being bound to others with
packing strip. Also the pack keeps in the humidity.
When they dry out the bend and cup. B&Q is the worst.
Wood from timber yards is better, but in my experience is getting
worse.
I had a load of 2x4 that was all slightly cupped - got away with it on
stud walling though.
I forget to fix one stud at the bottom against the wall and it twisted
out of plane with the wall.

In the old days, timber was naturally dried and seasoned, then cut and
planed when it had finished moving. Also timber now is cut from fast
grown narrow trunks so the grain has a log smaller radius and more
prone to twisting / cupping.

If you can use the timber quickly and it is held in place it will not
twist, but I'm not sure if when unbound after drying it would "spring"
into its desired twisted shape.

When I put in some timber joists recently (75mm x 225mm) a couple were
slightly twisted along the length. Before I put the ceiling up you
could see a wonky engineering brick underneath ... a the wonky end of
the joist !

A lot of builders are using TJI / engineered joists since they do not
suffer from this.

General building timber is in general getting poorer quality in my
experience.

Simon.
I missed the original response to my terse statement but I stand by it.

The sheds mainly buy rubbish, pre-shaped and packed. It is of uncertain
humidity content and quality.

Builder merchants who store do so in generally similar conditions to te
expected wood uss (PAR and rough sawn inside, pressure treated outside,
but under a bit of rain protection) , and get plane stock from places
who also store properly and shape internal timber under approximately
similar conditions to the expected use.

Also the smaller the wood dimensions the more likely it is to be ****e.
They are made from all the odd grained bits of lager baulks - but
conversely, they can easily be bent into shape, and, over a period, will
conform to the shape so bent to.

In all cases its down to wood selection, and the selection of the outlet
who conditions the wood best to your requirements, or if you are a
perfectionist, doing your own plane-finishing from specially seasoned wood..

Wood is a very poor structural component stability wise. The art of
joinery and carpentry is to minimise the impact on the final articles.
It is however cheap. Which is why we bother with it at all. If its very
cheap, it is seldom worth having at all. Shed wood is really cheap -
they expect at least 3:1 markup, whereas a BM and a trade account is no
more than 50%..

In article ,
MM writes:
One slight problem I had with the planks for my bed frame project: The
three 2.4m planks (145mm x 19mm) appeared dead flat in the plastic
pack, but within hours of opening the pack I noticed very slight
cupping on two planks and a slight twist on the other (like a cheese
straw, but not as pronounced!) The cupping and twisting are minimal
and barely noticeable in the finished bed fram unless one knows how to
squint along the long side from a low vantage point.

But how might one minimise this effect? Are planks stored flat in the
open, as two other stock yards practise, better?

If I buy timber at a DIY outlet, I unpack and leave to dry out for
as long as possible before use (at least a week, preferably a month).
I generally get two usable planks out of a pack of five.
I use the others where it doesn't matter (e.g. floorboards where they
can be screwed down flat, or where a short piece is required), although
I currently have a surpless of them.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]