Hi folks,

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from solid
oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to become
split at one point. I don't want to wade in with glues/fillers/clamps etc.
without seeking professional advice first. So I'd welcome advice and
guidance on how best to proceed.

The table is round (approx. 1.4M dia) constructed of modern 'engineered'(?)
oak boards. There is a segmented ring of oak running all around the
underside edge. Once straightened up I had planned on fixing a steel flat
bar (on edge) along the inside edge of the segmented ring under the table
top. I think this would hold everything in place but first I need to get it
closed enough and possibly filled or glued?

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

Would very much appreciate your views on how to best approach this repair
and what to use.

Neil

On 02/05/2011 18:44, It was im wrote:
Hi folks,

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from
solid oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to
become split at one point. I don't want to wade in with
glues/fillers/clamps etc. without seeking professional advice first. So
I'd welcome advice and guidance on how best to proceed.

The table is round (approx. 1.4M dia) constructed of modern
'engineered'(?) oak boards. There is a segmented ring of oak running all
around the underside edge. Once straightened up I had planned on fixing
a steel flat bar (on edge) along the inside edge of the segmented ring
under the table top. I think this would hold everything in place but
first I need to get it closed enough and possibly filled or glued?

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

Would very much appreciate your views on how to best approach this
repair and what to use.

Neil

I don't think that's fixable! Looks like the wood wasn't seasoned
sufficiently before being made into a table, and it has relieved its
built-in stresses by splitting. If you force that split together, it
will split somewhere else.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Roger Mills wrote:

On 02/05/2011 18:44, It was im wrote:
Hi folks,

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from
solid oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to
become split at one point. I don't want to wade in with
glues/fillers/clamps etc. without seeking professional advice first. So
I'd welcome advice and guidance on how best to proceed.

The table is round (approx. 1.4M dia) constructed of modern
'engineered'(?) oak boards. There is a segmented ring of oak running all
around the underside edge. Once straightened up I had planned on fixing
a steel flat bar (on edge) along the inside edge of the segmented ring
under the table top. I think this would hold everything in place but
first I need to get it closed enough and possibly filled or glued?

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

Would very much appreciate your views on how to best approach this
repair and what to use.

Neil

I don't think that's fixable! Looks like the wood wasn't seasoned
sufficiently before being made into a table, and it has relieved its
built-in stresses by splitting. If you force that split together, it
will split somewhere else.

I agree - looks that way to me.

I think the best bet is leave it for another few months and see if the gap
opens any more.

If it is stable, simplest "bodge" option might be to fill it with epoxy and
dust with some similar wood dust on top to disguise the fill, then polish it
up a bit.

I'm sure someone will come along with a better solution!

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

On May 2, 6:44*pm, "It was im" wrote:
Hi folks,

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. *Made from solid
oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to become
split at one point. I don't want to wade in with glues/fillers/clamps etc..
without seeking professional advice first. *So I'd welcome advice and
guidance on how best to proceed.

The table is round (approx. 1.4M dia) constructed of modern *'engineered'(?)
oak boards. *There is a segmented ring of oak running all around the
underside edge. *Once straightened up I had planned on fixing a steel flat
bar (on edge) along the inside edge of the segmented ring under the table
top. *I think this would hold everything in place but first I need to get it
closed enough and possibly filled or glued?

Photographs hehttp://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

Would very much appreciate your views on how to best approach this repair
and what to use.

Neil

Splits like this appear because the timber has dried out/absorbed
moisture too rapidly causing unequal shrinkage/expansion.
If the timber is left in a humid enevironment and then the
environment rapidly becomes dry this can occur. (Or vice versa))

Also the finish on the the timber prevents rapid changes in moisture
content.
With tables the underside is as important as the top.

You need to leave the table in a place not subject to rapid changes in
humidity and to see to the polish/varnish (top and bottom). The crack
may then close up.
Part of the problem is that the crack itself is bare timber inside
which allows changes in moisture content so allowing a "self
propagating effect".. When the table has stabilisedyou need to run
some glue or varnish into the crack to stop this effect.
It also depends on how thw timber was cut up originally. Radilly cut
planks are best but more expensive.
If you can see figuring or medulary ray it indicates an expensive
cut..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medullary_ray_(botany)

On Mon, 2 May 2011 18:44:10 +0100, It was im wrote:

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from
solid oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to
become split at one point.

Firstly I'd leave well alone for a few months in the room where it
will be used. I bought from my late fathers house a wooden table that
my grandfather made, having spent several years in a house with the
central heating set on "nuclear" there were big gaps between the
boards making up the top and some warping. Its now spent a year here
and the top is now flat and the gap no longer able to swallow large
pens...

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

I very much doubt you will be able to clamp/fix that enough for a
glue to hold it together. See what it's like once the table has
equalised with its enviroment in three months time. I'd then go for
the "PVA and wood dust filler" route on what remains. Get the wood
dust from underneath near the crack, it will colour match and thus be
almost invisible,

--
Cheers
Dave.

On May 2, 8:01*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 2 May 2011 18:44:10 +0100, It was im wrote:
My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. *Made from
solid oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to
become split at one point.

Firstly I'd leave well alone for a few months in the room where it
will be used. I bought from my late fathers house a wooden table that
my grandfather made, having spent several years in a house with the
central heating set on "nuclear" there were big gaps between the
boards making up the top and some warping. Its now spent a year here
and the top is now flat and the gap no longer able to swallow large
pens...

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

I very much doubt you will be able to clamp/fix that enough for a
glue to hold it together. See what it's like once the table has
equalised with its enviroment in three months time. I'd then go for
the "PVA and wood dust filler" route on what remains. Get the wood
dust from underneath near the crack, it will colour match and thus be
almost invisible,

--
Cheers
Dave.

+1 to all the comments about stabilisation.

My attempts with PVA /sawdust were not successful - the colour match
was very poor and the fill much darker. What I did succeed with
recently on a turned piece was filling a cavity in the wood with
sawdust and then dropping CA glue in - I succeeded in getting the in-
fill to be sufficiently proud that I was able to turn it flush with a
well sharpened tool and then sanded such that it blended in remarkably
and took a full polish.

I got away with this without experimenting, but I should have done so
in reality - the turned piece could have tolerated a darker feature -
so I would recommend that before you start you get hold of some oak
and in some way reproduce the crack and see what works.

Rob

"robgraham" wrote in message
...

On May 2, 8:01 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 2 May 2011 18:44:10 +0100, It was im wrote:
My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from
solid oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to
become split at one point.

Firstly I'd leave well alone for a few months in the room where it
will be used. I bought from my late fathers house a wooden table that
my grandfather made, having spent several years in a house with the
central heating set on "nuclear" there were big gaps between the
boards making up the top and some warping. Its now spent a year here
and the top is now flat and the gap no longer able to swallow large
pens...

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

I very much doubt you will be able to clamp/fix that enough for a
glue to hold it together. See what it's like once the table has
equalised with its enviroment in three months time. I'd then go for
the "PVA and wood dust filler" route on what remains. Get the wood
dust from underneath near the crack, it will colour match and thus be
almost invisible,

--
Cheers
Dave.

+1 to all the comments about stabilisation.

My attempts with PVA /sawdust were not successful - the colour match
was very poor and the fill much darker. What I did succeed with
recently on a turned piece was filling a cavity in the wood with
sawdust and then dropping CA glue in - I succeeded in getting the in-
fill to be sufficiently proud that I was able to turn it flush with a
well sharpened tool and then sanded such that it blended in remarkably
and took a full polish.

I got away with this without experimenting, but I should have done so
in reality - the turned piece could have tolerated a darker feature -
so I would recommend that before you start you get hold of some oak
and in some way reproduce the crack and see what works.

Rob

Thanks to all who replied and yes, you all pretty much confirm my own
fears/feelings.

My initial gut feeling was to clamp it (top to bottom) using a couple of
angle iron bridging bars across the split - well protected of course. Then
to drill and screw a heavy (4mm) flat bar against the inside ridge of the
segmented section underneath. I reckoned if I made this bar around 300mm
long with three screws each side of the split it might just about contain
it. I didn't expect this to narrow the split very much, if at all, and
would then have filled the split. But what with? I've used the glue and
sawdust mix many times before with mixed results (texture/colour etc.). I've
also used clear apoxy resin with sawdust - grips very will but becomes very
brittle, so perhaps not for this repair.

I've watched (is it) the Restoration Man on Sky. He uses hard wax for a lot
of filling type repairs - might be the way to go? I agree that the split
may creep but If I can get a strong enough fix with the flat bar screwed to
the back perhaps that might do it. Anybody have experience working with
this hard wax stuff?

Problem is I probably won't get a second chance if the first attempt messes
up!!

"It was im" wrote in
:

.....

I've watched (is it) the Restoration Man on Sky. He uses hard wax for
a lot of filling type repairs - might be the way to go? I agree that
the split may creep but If I can get a strong enough fix with the flat
bar screwed to the back perhaps that might do it. Anybody have
experience working with this hard wax stuff?

Problem is I probably won't get a second chance if the first attempt
messes up!!

Well with wax you do :-)

Specialist hardware shops and good mail order places such as Axminster Tools
sell dyed waxes for filling. You can blend one or more wax sticks in order to
get the correct shade. I'm not to sure if that gap would be to wide to fill
with a wax based filler, leave the table in situ for a couple of months to
see whether it shrinks.

Another option would be to use to Brummer Yellow Label. Sand down the table
surface and re-finish.

--

All the best,

Chris

On Mon, 2 May 2011 18:44:10 +0100, "It was im"
wrote:

Hi folks,

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from solid
oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to become
split at one point. I don't want to wade in with glues/fillers/clamps etc.
without seeking professional advice first. So I'd welcome advice and
guidance on how best to proceed.

The table is round (approx. 1.4M dia) constructed of modern 'engineered'(?)
oak boards. There is a segmented ring of oak running all around the
underside edge. Once straightened up I had planned on fixing a steel flat
bar (on edge) along the inside edge of the segmented ring under the table
top. I think this would hold everything in place but first I need to get it
closed enough and possibly filled or glued?

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

Would very much appreciate your views on how to best approach this repair
and what to use.

You say it's a used table: was the split present when you bought it or
has it developed since? If the split has always been there, in my
opinion others are unlikely to develop but forcing it closed could
create unwanted tensions that trigger other splits nearby. If it's
only just happened the surface of the split may still have the
moisture content of the inner wood (the outer few cells of a piece of
wood are always drier than the remainder once the timber has
stabilised) and may not yet have dried out and shrunk away from the
crack.

I'm afraid that in this context I'm uk.d-i-y's answer to "The Flight
of the Phoenix" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059183/) because
although I'm doing this sort of repair all the time, it's with the
smaller and thinner pieces of wood on stringed musical instruments. If
the crack is small and stable then in this context you might get away
with the wax filler mentioned above. Otherwise, you might find one of
my two different approaches will work, depending on the size of the
crack and the stability of the wood.

The first is to glue, clamp and tie the split. I use hot hide glue
because it's strong when used properly and has a self-clamping action
when drying. In your case, you might consider clamping by temporarily
attaching plastic bits, like these, where the screw-holes won't be
seen
http://www.bpfittings.co.uk/pc/KD-Fi...ture-c2973.htm

My second approach is to splice in a bit of new wood. I keep hundreds
of old scraps so that when I need one I can usually find something
that will match age, type, colour and grain and once it is spliced in,
the repair can be almost invisible. A rummage through the scrap bin at
your local timber yard might produce something suitable. For larger
cracks, I plane the splint down to size: for smaller ones I use the
actual shavings from the plane.

HTH

Nick

On Mon, 2 May 2011 18:44:10 +0100, "It was im"
wrote:

Hi folks,

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from solid
oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to become
split at one point. I don't want to wade in with glues/fillers/clamps etc.
without seeking professional advice first. So I'd welcome advice and
guidance on how best to proceed.

The table is round (approx. 1.4M dia) constructed of modern 'engineered'(?)
oak boards. There is a segmented ring of oak running all around the
underside edge. Once straightened up I had planned on fixing a steel flat
bar (on edge) along the inside edge of the segmented ring under the table
top. I think this would hold everything in place but first I need to get it
closed enough and possibly filled or glued?

Photographs he
http://www.cheeseandpickle.org/table/

Would very much appreciate your views on how to best approach this repair
and what to use.

Neil

You could experiment by screwing two pieces of hardwood parallel to
each other on each side of the split underneath the top and at least 4
cms from the split, Then you can try cramping the crack shut. The
experiment is to see how much force is needed to close the crack. If a
small amount is needed you may get away with gluing but if a lot of
force is required then filling may be the only way out as indicated
above.

My attempts with PVA /sawdust were not successful - the colour match
was very poor and the fill much darker.

That is always the case IME, the compressed dust being darker than the
wood itself. I'd use Liberon wax sticks, or plastic wood if still
available.

On May 2, 6:44*pm, "It was im" wrote:

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. *Made from solid
oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to become
split at one point.

Don't buy cheap **** furniture. In particular, don't come to me, tell
me my tables are too expensive, go away and buy one of these, and then
complain back to me when that splits. Oh look, nice big end grain
edge to a table - but then they've got a good wide belt sander to
smooth it and a spray room to make it all smooth afterwards. Cheaper
than real cabinetmaking anyway.

No clamping is going to fix it. Oak is stonger than steel. Any
credible mild steel strapping applied to oak will find the strapping
being distorted as the timber moves.

The "big fix" for this is to saw down the crack, re-joint and re-
assemble. Sounds drastic, but it's actually fairly invisible
afterwards. Usually - you do lose a blade kerf of width, which can be
an issue if it's circular.

The "reasonable" fix for this is to use a filler. I would favour two:
depending on whether I want to re-finish the table afterwards. If you
don't, then it's the usual coloured hard waxes (Liberon sets, from any
good toolshop, like Axminster). If you're going to re-work it anyway
(I make lots of pieces like this from Nakashima-style "naturalistic"
timber with all sorts of splits in it) then I use West System epoxy
mixed with phenolic microballoon filler and coloured. Scrape it smooth
afterwards with a card scraper.

Mostly though I'd ignore it. I wouldn't do anything to a table like
this (maybe just wax) until I'd had it in its final location for about
five years, to give the timber a chance to really season and
stabilise.

Also check how the table top is fastened to the underframe - it needs
to be able to move cross-grain, to allow for this sort of movement.

On 03/05/2011 10:16, Andy Dingley wrote:
On May 2, 6:44 pm, "It was wrote:

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Made from solid
oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to become
split at one point.

Don't buy cheap **** furniture.

Pre-recession talk

On May 3, 11:49*am, stuart noble wrote:
On 03/05/2011 10:16, Andy Dingley wrote:

On May 2, 6:44 pm, "It was *wrote:

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. *Made from solid
oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has caused it to become
split at one point.

Don't buy cheap **** furniture.

Pre-recession talk

If you can't afford solid oak, you certainly can't afford badly-made
solid oak.

Most of my furniture is reproductions of and variants on styles of
over 100 years ago, built with the same materials and methods, and
intended to last equally as long. It is, incidentally, mostly of oak.
That out-lasts the '73 oil crisis, the Great Depression of 1929, two
world wars and Thatcherism. Buying it cheaply because you can't afford
any better this year is short-sighted.

If you can't afford a good solid oak table, buy one made from a man-
made board instead. It'll look nearly the same, and it won't split
like this.

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

My attempts with PVA /sawdust were not successful - the colour match
was very poor and the fill much darker.

That is always the case IME, the compressed dust being darker than the
wood itself. I'd use Liberon wax sticks, or plastic wood if still
available.

What's wrong with putting a dutchman in it?
that would have been the traditional way to fix a defect during manufacture.
Either do it well so its invisible or do it badly as a feature.

On Tue, 3 May 2011 04:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
Andy Dingley wrote:

On May 3, 11:49Â*am, stuart noble wrote:
On 03/05/2011 10:16, Andy Dingley wrote:

On May 2, 6:44 pm, "It was Â*wrote:

My son and his wife have bought a used round dining table. Â*Made
from solid oak (modern manufacture) it seems that something has
caused it to become split at one point.

Don't buy cheap **** furniture.

Pre-recession talk

If you can't afford solid oak, you certainly can't afford badly-made
solid oak.

Most of my furniture is reproductions of and variants on styles of
over 100 years ago, built with the same materials and methods, and
intended to last equally as long. It is, incidentally, mostly of oak.
That out-lasts the '73 oil crisis, the Great Depression of 1929, two
world wars and Thatcherism. Buying it cheaply because you can't afford
any better this year is short-sighted.

If you can't afford a good solid oak table, buy one made from a man-
made board instead. It'll look nearly the same, and it won't split
like this.

I second what Andy says. The best table I ever bought was made of MDF
core with black-stained birch veneer, all on a chromed steel
frame. We used it from 1974 to 2002, and I sold it for about twice what
I paid for it. Dreadfully 1970's, but then...

I think I would go for wax in this case, and be prepared to do some
more now that the table has moved house. You can't pull a split like
this together, and it may open or close, and probably will - seasonally
anyway.

R.