Hello,

I would like to build some garden steps. I typed this into google and
found a couple of web sites. They recommend that the tread of each
step should be 30cm x 60cm. So I thought that's good, I could buy some
30x60 slabs to use or even buy a 60x60 slab and cut it into two
halves.

The web sites also said that the height of the riser should be 20cm.
This is where I get confused. That's great if you need your steps to
cover a height of 40cm, or any other multiple of 20, but what are the
chances of that? What would you do if the height was 50cm?

I think that the risers should all be the same height, so would you
divide 50 by the number of steps, say two, and make each riser 25cm?

It seems to me that that is the safest way because if one set of steps
was closer together or further apart than the others, I think this
could cause people to trip, so 10-20-20, or 20-20-10, or 20-30, etc I
think would be dangerous. Do you agree?

I was hoping to use bricks to make the side walls and the risers but
how do I solve the problem of the riser height not being a multiple of
bricks high? Do I have to cut bricks half height? That sounds tricky
to do.

The web sites seem to suggest you lay two courses of bricks, fill the
middle with gravel and then lay a slab and then lay two more courses,
fill, and lay another slab. Does this mean that you lay a whole slab
all the way through the stair case and then lay two courses on top of
the slab? That's the only way I can see that it would work because
otherwise won't the slab be half a brick thick and not align with the
next course?

Sadly the web sites lacked detailed pictures for each step, which
might have helped explain what they were trying to say.

I have to cover a depth of forty something cm and my worry is that if
I do two courses of brick then a slab and repeat I will get to the top
and find myself either 5cm too short or 5cm proud of the lawn! Or that
in order to keep the risers equal heights I will not be able to use
two courses but will need two and a third bricks or something like
that! Help!

Thanks,
Stephen.

Stephen wrote:
Hello,

I would like to build some garden steps. I typed this into google and
found a couple of web sites. They recommend that the tread of each
step should be 30cm x 60cm. So I thought that's good, I could buy some
30x60 slabs to use or even buy a 60x60 slab and cut it into two
halves.

The web sites also said that the height of the riser should be 20cm.
This is where I get confused. That's great if you need your steps to
cover a height of 40cm, or any other multiple of 20, but what are the
chances of that? What would you do if the height was 50cm?

I think that the risers should all be the same height, so would you
divide 50 by the number of steps, say two, and make each riser 25cm?

It seems to me that that is the safest way because if one set of steps
was closer together or further apart than the others, I think this
could cause people to trip, so 10-20-20, or 20-20-10, or 20-30, etc I
think would be dangerous. Do you agree?

All steps should be equal in height. 15-25cm is acceptable for a garden
step.

I was hoping to use bricks to make the side walls and the risers but
how do I solve the problem of the riser height not being a multiple of
bricks high? Do I have to cut bricks half height? That sounds tricky
to do.

No cutting, you dig a hole, put a footing in at about the right level
and set the top of the bricks at the level you want. You can adjust the
exact height by varying the thickness of the lowest mortar bed.

The web sites seem to suggest you lay two courses of bricks, fill the
middle with gravel and then lay a slab and then lay two more courses,
fill, and lay another slab. Does this mean that you lay a whole slab
all the way through the stair case and then lay two courses on top of
the slab? That's the only way I can see that it would work because
otherwise won't the slab be half a brick thick and not align with the
next course?

Build a framework of brick walls on solid footings with the top of the
frame the thickness of the slabs plus a mortar bed below the levels you
want, then cut and lay slabs to fit. It's easier to do than explain.

You build stepped walls at the sides, and link these with cross walls to
form the risers. If the bottoms of the side walls are concealed under
the local ground level, then you can adjust the heights by varying the
thickness of mortar on the bottom course(s). If you can't make the exact
levels you want, then a *slight* slope on the top and bottom paving
slabs will help drain water away and match levels.

Sadly the web sites lacked detailed pictures for each step, which
might have helped explain what they were trying to say.

I have to cover a depth of forty something cm and my worry is that if
I do two courses of brick then a slab and repeat I will get to the top
and find myself either 5cm too short or 5cm proud of the lawn! Or that
in order to keep the risers equal heights I will not be able to use
two courses but will need two and a third bricks or something like
that! Help!

Each course of bricks is about 75mm, if you include the mortar, so 45cm
is six courses, and could be made as 3 steps of 150mm or 2 steps of
225mm quite easily. Mortar joints in brickwork are normally 10mm thick,
but can vary from 5 to 15 if they're not in view, giving 70 - 80mm as
the height of your first course or two.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:28:45 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

No cutting, you dig a hole, put a footing in at about the right level
and set the top of the bricks at the level you want. You can adjust the
exact height by varying the thickness of the lowest mortar bed.

I think this is the problem for a novice like me: you have to use the
bottom layer of mortar to determine the height of the top row of
bricks. This means I won't know until I get to the top whether I have
judged it right or not. I know you mentioned calculating it based on
the height of bricks and that sounds good in theory but I worry that
in practice, I may find I get to the top and have to demolish it and
start again!

Build a framework of brick walls on solid footings with the top of the
frame the thickness of the slabs plus a mortar bed below the levels you
want, then cut and lay slabs to fit.

So rather than have the riser 30cm, cut the slab to fit the bricks, so
if the bricks stick out 33cm or 27cm, cut the riser to fit the
brickwork, not the other way round?

I'll give it a go. I haven't mixed loads of mortar before. Would 5
sand:1 cement be right? Is it worth adding some plasticiser so I could
mix fewer big batches, rather than many small ones?

Thanks,
Stephen.

Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:28:45 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

No cutting, you dig a hole, put a footing in at about the right level
and set the top of the bricks at the level you want. You can adjust the
exact height by varying the thickness of the lowest mortar bed.

I think this is the problem for a novice like me: you have to use the
bottom layer of mortar to determine the height of the top row of
bricks. This means I won't know until I get to the top whether I have
judged it right or not. I know you mentioned calculating it based on
the height of bricks and that sounds good in theory but I worry that
in practice, I may find I get to the top and have to demolish it and
start again!

It's not an exact science, and plus or minus 6mm is pretty good going.
I'd recommend drawing it out to scale first, so you know what you're
building. You need, in effect, a trench round the edge of where the
steps are going top be, and trenches where you're going to build the
risers with either compacted stone or a concrete footing in them, with
the tops at the right levels, then build the edges and risers on top of
those. Then bed the slabs on top of the walls.

Starting at the top, dig a hole, and measure down to the level you want,
that's the level of the top of the footings. Dig another 150mm or so,
fill the 150mm with conecrete, then start building up from that.

Build a framework of brick walls on solid footings with the top of the
frame the thickness of the slabs plus a mortar bed below the levels you
want, then cut and lay slabs to fit.

So rather than have the riser 30cm, cut the slab to fit the bricks, so
if the bricks stick out 33cm or 27cm, cut the riser to fit the
brickwork, not the other way round?

The bottom riser will stick up either 100mm or 175mm above the bottom
paving level, with the top of subsequent risers either 150 or 225 mm
above the previous one. You'll end up with a grid of walls with the tops
at the right levels to take the slabs. Then you cut the slabs to fit the
space available.

I'll give it a go. I haven't mixed loads of mortar before. Would 5
sand:1 cement be right? Is it worth adding some plasticiser so I could
mix fewer big batches, rather than many small ones?

Plasticiser will make it easier to work, but won't affect the setting
time much. You'll get a good few minutes of working time, though,
depending on temperature. If you use 5 of soft sand to 1 of cement, then
it'll be fairly easy to chip off later if you need to have another go.
Grin

Good pictures he-

http://www.pavingexpert.com/featur01.htm

Which have saved me a good few minutes with a drafting machine and a
scanner.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Apr 17, 7:39*pm, Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:28:45 +0100, John Williamson

wrote:
No cutting, you dig a hole, put a footing in at about the right level
and set the top of the bricks at the level you want. You can adjust the
exact height by varying the thickness of the lowest mortar bed.

I think this is the problem for a novice like me: you have to use the
bottom layer of mortar to determine the height of the top row of
bricks. This means I won't know until I get to the top whether I have
judged it right or not. I know you mentioned calculating it based on
the height of bricks and that sounds good in theory but I worry that
in practice, I may find I get to the top and have to demolish it and
start again!

Build a framework of brick walls on solid footings with the top of the
frame the thickness of the slabs plus a mortar bed below the levels you
want, then cut and lay slabs to fit.

So rather than have the riser 30cm, cut the slab to fit the bricks, so
if the bricks stick out 33cm or 27cm, cut the riser to fit the
brickwork, not the other way round?

I'll give it a go. I haven't mixed loads of mortar before. Would 5
sand:1 cement be right? Is it worth adding some plasticiser so I could
mix fewer big batches, rather than many small ones?

Thanks,
Stephen.

Steps must always be exactly the same height. How you build it up to
the height you can do any way you please, I cant see any reason to get
hung up about it. If you use bricks, pick frostproof ones.

3:1 is better.


NT

On 17 Apr, 20:21, John Williamson
wrote:

Starting at the top, dig a hole

Is there another way to dig a hole?

Cheers
Richard

geraldthehamster wrote:
On 17 Apr, 20:21, John Williamson
wrote:

Starting at the top, dig a hole

Is there another way to dig a hole?

I've been known to start digging at the bottom of the slope...
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I would like to build some garden steps. I typed this into google and
found a couple of web sites. They recommend that the tread of each
step should be 30cm x 60cm. So I thought that's good, I could buy some
30x60 slabs to use or even buy a 60x60 slab and cut it into two
halves.

The Paving Expert site has some advice on steps that might help
http://pavingexpert.com/pavindex.htm

On Apr 17, 7:39*pm, Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:28:45 +0100, John Williamson

wrote:
No cutting, you dig a hole, put a footing in at about the right level
and set the top of the bricks at the level you want. You can adjust the
exact height by varying the thickness of the lowest mortar bed.

I think this is the problem for a novice like me: you have to use the
bottom layer of mortar to determine the height of the top row of
bricks. This means I won't know until I get to the top whether I have
judged it right or not. I know you mentioned calculating it based on
the height of bricks and that sounds good in theory but I worry that
in practice, I may find I get to the top and have to demolish it and
start again!

Mark out the levels on a stick, starting at the top and working down.
Then use the markings on the stick to build up from the bottom. Thats
the traditional way and avoid the problem of getting the top at the
correct level.


Build a framework of brick walls on solid footings with the top of the
frame the thickness of the slabs plus a mortar bed below the levels you
want, then cut and lay slabs to fit.

So rather than have the riser 30cm, cut the slab to fit the bricks, so
if the bricks stick out 33cm or 27cm, cut the riser to fit the
brickwork, not the other way round?

Not sure what you mean, but the "riser" will usually be a 2 or 3 rows
of bricks. The slab will usually project slightly beyond the front of
the riser (e.g. an inch, like the "nose" of a staircase), since its
easier to climb steps when you foot can go slightly under the step
above.

Simon.

If you make some spacers to represent the mortar you could
lay out some bricks dry to get the layout.

JGH

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I would like to build some garden steps. I typed this into google and
found a couple of web sites. They recommend that the tread of each
step should be 30cm x 60cm. So I thought that's good, I could buy some
30x60 slabs to use or even buy a 60x60 slab and cut it into two
halves.

The web sites also said that the height of the riser should be 20cm.
This is where I get confused. That's great if you need your steps to
cover a height of 40cm, or any other multiple of 20, but what are the
chances of that? What would you do if the height was 50cm?

I think that the risers should all be the same height, so would you
divide 50 by the number of steps, say two, and make each riser 25cm?

It seems to me that that is the safest way because if one set of steps
was closer together or further apart than the others, I think this
could cause people to trip, so 10-20-20, or 20-20-10, or 20-30, etc I
think would be dangerous. Do you agree?

I was hoping to use bricks to make the side walls and the risers but
how do I solve the problem of the riser height not being a multiple of
bricks high? Do I have to cut bricks half height? That sounds tricky
to do.

The web sites seem to suggest you lay two courses of bricks, fill the
middle with gravel and then lay a slab and then lay two more courses,
fill, and lay another slab. Does this mean that you lay a whole slab
all the way through the stair case and then lay two courses on top of
the slab? That's the only way I can see that it would work because
otherwise won't the slab be half a brick thick and not align with the
next course?




Your rise can be whatever you want it to be, but even on a garden you want
to avoid it being too high.

250mm is probably getting too high ... personally I would aim to be around
200mm

2 course of bricks (150mm) and a 50mm slab gives a good step.

Important that each rise is equal within 5mm or so, or there is a
significant trip hazard.
Don't make going too long, or again there is a trip hazard.
minimum going = 225 ... no problem if you use the 300 slabs you suggest.

guideline on steps is 2 x rise + going = 550 to 700

Don't be tempted to go longer than 300, again a trip hazard as people will
tend to take double step on each going.


Standard 'comfort' steps deemed suitable for all is 250mm going and 180mm
rise

On 18 Apr, 11:41, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,

*geraldthehamster wrote:
On 17 Apr, 20:21, John Williamson
wrote:

Starting at the top, dig a hole

Is there another way to dig a hole?

Is that what bank robbers do then?

They do if they're starting in someone's garden. But point taken.

Cheers
Richard

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 03:37:05 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson
wrote:

Not sure what you mean, but the "riser" will usually be a 2 or 3 rows
of bricks.

Sorry, I didn't read it before sending. I meant to say "tread" not
"riser".

On Apr 18, 9:55*pm, Stephen wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 03:37:05 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson

wrote:
Not sure what you mean, but the "riser" will usually be a 2 or 3 rows
of bricks.

Sorry, I didn't read it before sending. I meant to say "tread" not
"riser".

Ah I see.
I'd tend to try to find some slabs near the size of the treads I
needed and build the brickwork to fit this (allowing a "nose" at the
front of the tread). But if working in fixed dimensions obviously
cutting may be needed. I'd try to have an cuts at the "back" of the
tread, so you have properly finished front and sides. Square slabs cut
in half may work well.
York stone slabs and reclaimed bricks would look nice. Ah, there's
another project idea ;-)
Simon.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:21:14 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

You'll end up with a grid of walls with the tops
at the right levels to take the slabs. Then you cut the slabs to fit the
space available.

Hello,

Just to let you know I managed to build it over the bank holiday
weekend. Thanks for everyone's help.

I did something like that on the paving expert site:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/featur01.htm

Just above the "breaching the damp course" section, where it shows
slabs on top of a brick wall.

After some calculation as described here, I managed to lay a concrete
base just the right thickness that the bricks finished at just the
right height to make the top step level with the lawn.

Unfortunately one step was too low if on one course of bricks and too
high if on another course, so I cut a brick in half with an angle
grinder and laid a course of half-thickness bricks, which made the
step just the right height.

Is cutting bricks in half a bodge? I've never seen it done before but
I guess that when designing houses, they specify windows and doors
etc. a height that matches an integer number of brick courses to avoid
this?

Thanks again,
Stephen.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 00:36:17 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson
wrote:

I'd tend to try to find some slabs near the size of the treads I
needed and build the brickwork to fit this (allowing a "nose" at the
front of the tread). But if working in fixed dimensions obviously
cutting may be needed. I'd try to have an cuts at the "back" of the
tread, so you have properly finished front and sides. Square slabs cut
in half may work well.

That's exactly what I did. I cut some 600mmx600mm slabs into 600x300
and put the cut edge at the back. I used a 230mm angle grinder. It was
a silverline diamond disc that IIRC I bought from Amazon. Although
there was a decent thickness of diamond left from last time I used it,
it was really difficult to cut. I changed the blade for another
cheapie, this time from Aldi, and it cut like a knife through butter.

I think I remember someone saying that if the blade gets too hot the
glue melts and the diamonds sink into the adhesive, or something like
that. Perhaps that's what happened to the silverline one. Is there a
way to restore it, or should it go in the bin?

Should the disc be withdrawn from the slab now and again to cool it? I
would have thought that you would get a neater line if you keep the
disc in the slab until the end. Is the trick not to force the disc so
that it does not get too hot in the first place?

Thanks,
Stephen.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:22:15 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:

Firstly, it isn't imperative that the steps finish at *exactly* the level of
the lawn - you're worying about them stopping 3 or 4 cm short or too high -
does this really matter when all you need to do is adjust the height of the
lawn, simply cut out a square foot or two of turf and rake off a bit if
they're too high or add a spadeful of soil if they're too low and put the
turf back.

But wouldn't you then have a rise and fall in your lawn near the step?
I suppose that would not matter as long as you did not want a bowling
green finish.