I have moved to Spain from the UK.

I have brought with me plenty of UK appliances.

All of them have the standard UK fused plug.

My house in Spain is of recent construction with modern circuit breakers and RCDs.

I know well the purpose of the UK fuse, explained at All about fuses

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have a fuse.

I really do not think I am compromising much in terms of safety or other. If there is a current overload, the circuit breaker will cut the current. Surely, it will not be at the same amperage as the fuse, but it will certainly not let a fire or cable melt happen.

Additionally, I would have the appliances wired as they are wired in this part of Europe, no fuse at the appliance power cord, which further seems to corroborate that I am not very wrong.

Lastly, I think I would even be making things better. Most UK to European adaptors are rated 5 to 6 A. It is not easy to find 13A ones, which means that often times a 6A adaptor is used for easily 10 A.

At the very most I would keep the UK plug for the smaller rated appliances, up to 5A, where the flex may be compromises in case of a current overload. For bigger appliances, with a 13A fuse, it seems to me there is little advantage in keeping the UK plug.

In short, is it advisable to use in Spain the UK appliances with their original UK fused plug with an adaptor or is it safe to replace the UK plug with the European one?

Thanks,

Antonio

On Apr 15, 9:06*am, asalcedo wrote:
I have moved to Spain from the UK.

I have brought with me plenty of UK appliances.

All of them have the standard UK fused plug.

My house in Spain is of recent construction with modern circuit breakers
and RCDs.

I know well the purpose of the UK fuse, explained at 'All about fuses'
(http://www.glodark.co.uk/fuses.htm)

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.

I really do not think I am compromising much in terms of safety or
other. If there is a current overload, the circuit breaker will cut the
current. Surely, it will not be at the same amperage as the fuse, but it
will certainly not let a fire or cable melt happen.

Additionally, I would have the appliances wired as they are wired in
this part of Europe, no fuse at the appliance power cord, which further
seems to corroborate that I am not very wrong.

Lastly, I think I would even be making things better. Most UK to
European adaptors are rated 5 to 6 A. It is not easy to find 13A ones,
which means that often times a 6A adaptor is used for easily 10 A.

At the very most I would keep the UK plug for the smaller rated
appliances, up to 5A, where the flex may be compromises in case of a
current overload. For bigger appliances, with a 13A fuse, it seems to me
there is little advantage in keeping the UK plug.

In short, is it advisable to use in Spain the UK appliances with their
original UK fused plug with an adaptor or is it safe to replace the UK
plug with the European one?

Thanks,

Antonio

--
asalcedo

Or you could take UK multi-outlet socket extenders out there and
replace each plug top with a Spanish one, then there's only a fraction
of the number of plugs to change.

OK, so it's not so tidy.

rusty

On 15/04/2011 10:06, asalcedo wrote:
I have moved to Spain from the UK.

I have brought with me plenty of UK appliances.

All of them have the standard UK fused plug.

My house in Spain is of recent construction with modern circuit breakers
and RCDs.

I know well the purpose of the UK fuse, explained at 'All about fuses'
(http://www.glodark.co.uk/fuses.htm)

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.

I really do not think I am compromising much in terms of safety or
other. If there is a current overload, the circuit breaker will cut the
current. Surely, it will not be at the same amperage as the fuse, but it
will certainly not let a fire or cable melt happen.

Additionally, I would have the appliances wired as they are wired in
this part of Europe, no fuse at the appliance power cord, which further
seems to corroborate that I am not very wrong.

Lastly, I think I would even be making things better. Most UK to
European adaptors are rated 5 to 6 A. It is not easy to find 13A ones,
which means that often times a 6A adaptor is used for easily 10 A.

At the very most I would keep the UK plug for the smaller rated
appliances, up to 5A, where the flex may be compromises in case of a
current overload. For bigger appliances, with a 13A fuse, it seems to me
there is little advantage in keeping the UK plug.

In short, is it advisable to use in Spain the UK appliances with their
original UK fused plug with an adaptor or is it safe to replace the UK
plug with the European one?

Thanks,

Antonio





When we moved to France I cut off all the UK plugs and replaced them
with the appropriate French two or three pin plugs as appropriate. It
sounds like the Spanish system is the same as the French system.

The only mistake was using a travel adaptor for a something rated at 1kw
and the adaptor got very hot - dangerously so.

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

On 15/04/2011 09:06, asalcedo wrote:
I have moved to Spain from the UK.

[...]

I really do not think I am compromising much in terms of safety or
other. If there is a current overload, the circuit breaker will cut the
current. Surely, it will not be at the same amperage as the fuse, but it
will certainly not let a fire or cable melt happen.

The purpose of the UK plug fuse is solely to provide 'fault' (i.e.
short-circuit) protection for the flex. Any overload protection
required should be in the appliance.

[...]

In short, is it advisable to use in Spain the UK appliances with their
original UK fused plug with an adaptor or is it safe to replace the UK
plug with the European one?

If all your appliances are modern and have flexes of 0.75 mm^2 or larger
then it is perfectly safe to fit unfused Schucko plugs to use in sockets
where the building wiring is protected at 16 A. With modern approved
flexes you will normally find the conductor cross-sectional area in the
embossed markings on the outer sheath.

You need to exercise caution with smaller flexes such as 0.5 mm^2 or the
old 14/0.0076 inch Which will not necessarily be protected by a 16 amp
fuse or MCB. Any appliances using such flexes should be connected using
a fused plug and adaptor.

Also be careful with extension leads, particularly long ones. The
simplest, safest, advice is only to use extension leads which have 1.5
mm^2 (or larger) flex.

HTH
--
Andy

On Apr 15, 9:55*am, Andy Wade wrote:
On 15/04/2011 09:06, asalcedo wrote:

I have moved to Spain from the UK.

[...]

I really do not think I am compromising much in terms of safety or
other. If there is a current overload, the circuit breaker will cut the
current. Surely, it will not be at the same amperage as the fuse, but it
will certainly not let a fire or cable melt happen.

The purpose of the UK plug fuse is solely to provide 'fault' (i.e.
short-circuit) protection for the flex. *Any overload protection
required should be in the appliance.

[...]

In short, is it advisable to use in Spain the UK appliances with their
original UK fused plug with an adaptor or is it safe to replace the UK
plug with the European one?

If all your appliances are modern and have flexes of 0.75 mm^2 or larger
then it is perfectly safe to fit unfused Schucko plugs to use in sockets
where the building wiring is protected at 16 A. *With modern approved
flexes you will normally find the conductor cross-sectional area in the
embossed markings on the outer sheath.

You need to exercise caution with smaller flexes such as 0.5 mm^2 or the
old 14/0.0076 inch Which will not necessarily be protected by a 16 amp
fuse or MCB. *Any appliances using such flexes should be connected using
a fused plug and adaptor.

Also be careful with extension leads, particularly long ones. *The
simplest, safest, advice is only to use extension leads which have 1.5
mm^2 (or larger) flex.

HTH
--
Andy

In article , asalcedo asalcedo.7edb388@
diybanter.com writes

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.

Why bother? The adapters are inconspicuous, dirt cheap, e.g. Ebay
170622046345, and you retain the benefit of the fuse.

--
Mike Tomlinson

I have moved to Spain from the UK.

I have brought with me plenty of UK appliances.

about the same as anyone in the forces being posted abroad, my dad had 2
postings to germany when i was growing up, anything brought from england had
it's plug replaced with a shuko one, anything bought in germany (most of the
items as it was so much cheaper over there) got a uk plug put on when we
came back to england.

My house in Spain is of recent construction with modern circuit breakers
and RCDs.

european properties usually use the radial wiring system, so you have a lot
more circuit breakers in the box than a uk house, (my house here in england
has 4 active breakers, one for all the lights, one for all the sockets
(upstairs and down) one for the garage, and one for the kitchen)

In the houses we had in germany, the fuse box was about a foot wide by 2 and
a half foot long, located at the top of the cellar steps, and it had a
breaker for about every 3 sockets, the living room had 3 breakers for the
sockets in it, fixed appliances had their own breakers and so on.

At the very most I would keep the UK plug for the smaller rated
appliances, up to 5A, where the flex may be compromises in case of a
current overload. For bigger appliances, with a 13A fuse, it seems to me
there is little advantage in keeping the UK plug.

Dunno about mainland spain, but i remember when i went to tennariffe (a
spanish island so i'd assume spanish electrical systems but could be wrong)
they had 2 sorts of socket and plug, a standard 16 amp shuko for large
appliances, and a smaller pin spaced shuko style for low power items upto 6
amps i believe,

Thing like tv's, lamps, radios etc were plugged into the smaller sockets,
the portable air conditioner was plugged into the larger socket, as was the
hoover and so on.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Why bother? The adapters are inconspicuous, dirt cheap, e.g. Ebay
170622046345, and you retain the benefit of the fuse.

I'd reckon on them being more of a hazard than the loss of a fuse.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

On 15/04/2011 10:50, therustyone wrote:
On Apr 15, 9:06 am, wrote:
I have moved to Spain from the UK.

I have brought with me plenty of UK appliances.

All of them have the standard UK fused plug.

My house in Spain is of recent construction with modern circuit breakers
and RCDs.

I know well the purpose of the UK fuse, explained at 'All about fuses'
(http://www.glodark.co.uk/fuses.htm)

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.

I really do not think I am compromising much in terms of safety or
other. If there is a current overload, the circuit breaker will cut the
current. Surely, it will not be at the same amperage as the fuse, but it
will certainly not let a fire or cable melt happen.

Additionally, I would have the appliances wired as they are wired in
this part of Europe, no fuse at the appliance power cord, which further
seems to corroborate that I am not very wrong.

Lastly, I think I would even be making things better. Most UK to
European adaptors are rated 5 to 6 A. It is not easy to find 13A ones,
which means that often times a 6A adaptor is used for easily 10 A.

At the very most I would keep the UK plug for the smaller rated
appliances, up to 5A, where the flex may be compromises in case of a
current overload. For bigger appliances, with a 13A fuse, it seems to me
there is little advantage in keeping the UK plug.

In short, is it advisable to use in Spain the UK appliances with their
original UK fused plug with an adaptor or is it safe to replace the UK
plug with the European one?

Thanks,

Antonio

--
asalcedo

Or you could take UK multi-outlet socket extenders out there and
replace each plug top with a Spanish one, then there's only a fraction
of the number of plugs to change.

OK, so it's not so tidy.

rusty


I don't know if the Spanish system is like the French one, but doing
that could potentially be dangerous. The reason being (in France) that
no distinction is made between live and neutral since the RCD breaks
both poles. This means it is pot luck which feed is live or neutral at
any given socket (and if two pin plugs are used for anything they can be
inserted either way anyway). So in the worst case scenario a UK fuse
could blow on the neutral leaving the appliance still live and
potentially dangerous.

I had a nice whack once fumbling around in a narrow space replacing a
blown cooker light - despite the switch being off - the switch happened
to be on the neutral not the live.

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

In article , Scott M
writes

I'd reckon on them being more of a hazard than the loss of a fuse.

Nonsense. I travel in Europe a lot (for work and pleasure) and use them
without issue.

--
Mike Tomlinson

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

In article , Scott M
writes

I'd reckon on them being more of a hazard than the loss of a fuse.

Nonsense. I travel in Europe a lot (for work and pleasure) and use them
without issue.

Oh, in their place they're ideal, I've no doubt. But for possibly using
them, say, 24/7, shoved behind a cabinet on a high load device, I'd not
trust them. They're a bit flimsy and exaserbate the problem of
europlug's ease to fall out of the wall compared to a UK plug.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"John Rumm" wrote in message o.uk...
On 15/04/2011 09:06, asalcedo wrote:

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.

Generally that should be ok. The plug fuse in the UK is not used for overload protection anyway (if that is needed it must be
designed into the appliance itself), it just needs to protect the flex from the effects of fault currents (i.e. short circuits L
to N or L to E) since you can't rely on the main circuit breaker doing this on a 32A circuit.

May not be mandated for appliance protection, but isn't it true to say that choosing
a plug fuse value sensibly having regard for the maximum current demand of
the appliance rather than than just the capability of the cable has always been good practice?

The appliance manufactures seem to think so.

Take the case of three items I regularly install, all with supplied 0.75mm2 IDE cables

A Dell PC with a 5A fuse in the plug
A Cisco router with a 10A fuse
A Brother laser printer with 13A fuse.

Of course this might now create issues with interchangability.
I would be interested to see your comments about the above.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Apr 15, 9:06*am, asalcedo wrote:

I have moved to Spain from the UK.

I have brought with me plenty of UK appliances.

All of them have the standard UK fused plug.

My house in Spain is of recent construction with modern circuit breakers
and RCDs.

I know well the purpose of the UK fuse, explained at 'All about fuses'
(http://www.glodark.co.uk/fuses.htm)

only mentions one of the purposes of the plug fuse. basic fuse choice
data wrong.

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.

I really do not think I am compromising much in terms of safety or
other. If there is a current overload, the circuit breaker will cut the
current. Surely, it will not be at the same amperage as the fuse, but it
will certainly not let a fire or cable melt happen.

Fires occur with UK and Spanish systems. If you want to know the
relative safety you could get hold of the spanish fire statistics and
compare. Doing it the other way round, looking at the potential causes
of fires, isn't effective, beacuse what matters is how many fires
result, not whether certain causes exist in each system or not.


NT

On Apr 16, 5:08*am, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/04/2011 02:33, Graham. wrote:

"John *wrote in messagenews:moSdnTqYZuqYuzXQnZ2dnUVZ8qKdnZ2d@brigh tview.co.uk...
On 15/04/2011 09:06, asalcedo wrote:

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.

Generally that should be ok. The plug fuse in the UK is not used for overload protection anyway (if that is needed it must be
designed into the appliance itself), it just needs to protect the flex from the effects of fault currents (i.e. short circuits L
to N or L to E) since you can't rely on the main circuit breaker doing this on a 32A circuit.

May not be mandated for appliance protection, but isn't it true to say that choosing
a plug fuse value sensibly having regard for the maximum current demand of
the appliance rather than than just the capability of the cable has always been good practice?

Yup certainly, it still is good practice... if nothing else it makes for
a smaller bang when someone sticks a chair leg through the wire!

The absolute requirement is that the fuse gives the flex adequate fault
protection - a 3A flex would have a real chance of melting quite rapidly
with a short on the end and a 32A circuit powering it. If the appliance
needs overload protection, then it must be contained in it - since in
most markets it won't have the luxury of a low rating fuse in circuit
outside of its box. However there is no requirement that the protection
built into the appliance be resettable. It can take the form of a one
shot thermal fuse or other mechanism that if it does activate basically
renders the appliance toast. In those cases, having a lower value fuse
feeding the appliance may offer the chance of that blowing before the
internal one shot protection fires.

There was a time when it was more important than now, since smaller
flexes were more common (presumably on appliances made specifically for
the uk market).

Most manufacturers targeting international markets seem
to go for 0.75mm^2 flex these days since it will usually be fault
protected by most 16A circuit breakers / fuses etc.

In a way its interesting that they bother - since its not an option for
most of their sales of the same product into other markets, but it does
follow the argument of best practice.

Interchangeability is an interesting one, since I don't think I have
ever seen anyone check the fuse rating in an IEC lead prior to using it
for whatever bit of kit they want to power. The fact that it seems to
cause no problem in practice may just be a reflection that the vast
majority of things with an IEC socket on the back (laser printers

(much snippage)

In practice there's always a raggedy edge out there though.
- appliances without safe overload protection do exist, both new and
historic
- wiring faults arent always dead shorts, hence 3A fusing does improve
safety over 13A or 16A
- smaller than 0.75mm^2 leads are also in use on old equipment


NT

..
Take the case of three items I regularly install, all with supplied 0.75mm2 IDE cables

(You can see why SATA became popular if the IDE leads were that size ;-)

I *knew* that didn't look right!


--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

A Cisco router with a 10A fuse

Seems excessive for a router (unless very high end). Having said that many
of the IEC "cold" plugs and sockets themselves are only rated at 8 to 10A
continuous.

That depends on the router..
I have used them where you couldn't power them from a 13A supply and had to
have bigger supplies fitted.
And that was with more than one PSU so the load was spread across several
leads.
Routers range from household stuff to 120+G switching stuff, ie. from a few
watts to several kwatts.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:04:04 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

A Cisco router with a 10A fuse

Seems excessive for a router (unless very high end). Having said that
many of the IEC "cold" plugs and sockets themselves are only rated at 8
to 10A continuous.

That depends on the router..
I have used them where you couldn't power them from a 13A supply and had
to have bigger supplies fitted.
And that was with more than one PSU so the load was spread across
several leads.
Routers range from household stuff to 120+G switching stuff, ie. from a
few watts to several kwatts.

More dennis fantasy.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

John Rumm wrote:

On 15/04/2011 09:06, asalcedo wrote:

However, I am considering cutting the UK plugs in all appliance power
cords and replace them with the Spanish/ European one that does not have
a fuse.
In France and Spain I've replaced all the UK plugs with appropriate non
earthed or earthed plugs, apart from things which need a UK adapter socket
(wallwarts for printers or T.V. equipment etc)

But I keep an extension strip for visitors to charge their mobile 'phones,
Nintendo ipods etc

--
John M

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...


More dennis fantasy.

Anyone that wants to know that Bob just doesn't know anything can browse
these
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/...eets_list.html
and they are not the really big ones and are relativly low powered compared
to what they were only a couple of years ago.

Thank you for all the informative and helpful comments.

I agree most with Andy.

The fuse is to protect the flex.

Since this Spanish installation is mostly radial with, yes, plenty of MCBs rated at 16A for the power circuits, I agree, and conclude, that it is perfectly safe to cut the UK fused plugs for all those appliances that have thick wired flexes (usually those with a 16A UK fuse).

It so happens that these are the appliances were one benefits most from getting rid of the adaptor. When plugging and unplugging often, when working in crowded workshops you miss the convenience of not having to unplug the UK plug and then unplug the adaptor.

For thinner flexes, it is usually not much of an issue to keep the adaptor.

Many thanks,

Antonio

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:18:47 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...


More dennis fantasy.

Anyone that wants to know that Bob just doesn't know anything can browse
these
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps5763/
products_data_sheets_list.html
and they are not the really big ones and are relativly low powered
compared to what they were only a couple of years ago.

The fantasy was not that they exist, but your claims to have used them,
along with the many other fantastical stories.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:18:47 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...


More dennis fantasy.

Anyone that wants to know that Bob just doesn't know anything can browse
these
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps5763/
products_data_sheets_list.html
and they are not the really big ones and are relativly low powered
compared to what they were only a couple of years ago.

The fantasy was not that they exist, but your claims to have used them,
along with the many other fantastical stories.

Well I never claimed to use that particular one as I left before they made
them. Does that make you feel better.

However I did use previous generations, and ATM switches so up yours.

"dennis@home" wrote in message ...


"John Rumm" wrote in message ...

A Cisco router with a 10A fuse

Seems excessive for a router (unless very high end). Having said that many of the IEC "cold" plugs and sockets themselves are
only rated at 8 to 10A continuous.

That depends on the router..
I have used them where you couldn't power them from a 13A supply and had to have bigger supplies fitted.
And that was with more than one PSU so the load was spread across several leads.
Routers range from household stuff to 120+G switching stuff, ie. from a few watts to several kwatts.

The router is a Cisco 1801 and is rated at only 50W so it was a bad example
to give. All it illustrates is that 0.75 IDC cables come with different fuses, they
are not all supplied with the maximum 13A to just protect the cable.

I am looking at an IDC cable closely now. The BS1363 is rated at 5A, the IDC connector
is rated at 10A the cable is 0.75mm. It has a 5 amp fuse.
So, does this mean that not all 0.75mm2 IDC are created equal?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 17/04/2011 00:03, Graham. wrote:

I am looking at an IDC cable closely now.

IEC lead?

The BS1363 is rated at 5A

BS 1362, if you mean the fuse.

the IDC connector is rated at 10A the cable is 0.75mm. It has a 5 amp
fuse. So, does this mean that not all 0.75mm2 IDC are created equal?

Are you looking at an old one, pre-about-1990? 0.75 mm^2 cord was used
in the days when the cold-condition IEC connector was rated at 6 A. All
newer ones are rated at 10 A and should have 1.0 mm^2 cords. 5 A plug
fuses are commonly fitted in the UK, although 13 A is OK.

--
Andy

In article , Scott M
writes

They're a bit flimsy and exaserbate the problem of
europlug's ease to fall out of the wall compared to a UK plug.

The flush Eurosockets, yes, I'd agree, but the recessed ones seem pretty
solid.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")