I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

A search throws up the Antex Pipemaster which their ads and video claims
will do the trick
http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?...rdPosit ion=1

There are 2 versions
"DIY" 120 Watts (yellow) at £48 (from CPC)
Warmup 4 mins
Usage time (time to complete the joint presumably?)
15mm 1st joint 20-30 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs
22mm 1st joint 30-40 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs 22mm joint.

and "PRO" 220 Watts (black) at £131 (from Antex)
Warmup 2 mins
1st joint 20 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs (diameter not stated).

both have extra heads availlable for 8-22mm but only have 15mm head
supplied, 22mm £11 extra.

Phil

"Phil Addison" wrote in message
...
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I
do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do
the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy
risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am
ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good?
Anyone
tried them?

A search throws up the Antex Pipemaster which their ads and video
claims
will do the trick

http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?...rdPosit ion=1

There are 2 versions
"DIY" 120 Watts (yellow) at £48 (from CPC)
Warmup 4 mins
Usage time (time to complete the joint presumably?)
15mm 1st joint 20-30 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs
22mm 1st joint 30-40 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs 22mm joint.

and "PRO" 220 Watts (black) at £131 (from Antex)
Warmup 2 mins
1st joint 20 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs (diameter not stated).

both have extra heads availlable for 8-22mm but only have 15mm head
supplied, 22mm £11 extra.

Phil

I'm led to believe that they do work, if a bit slowly and they are
spendy. But for a one off job like that, I'd clear away any dust and
debris and then spray the area liberally with water from a squeezy
spray bottle, and put baco foil behind pipes as you solder them to
protect the wood. Keep the spray bottle to hand in case of excessive
excitement !

AWEM

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

A search throws up the Antex Pipemaster which their ads and video claims
will do the trick
http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?...rdPosit ion=1

There are 2 versions
"DIY" 120 Watts (yellow) at £48 (from CPC)
Warmup 4 mins
Usage time (time to complete the joint presumably?)
15mm 1st joint 20-30 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs
22mm 1st joint 30-40 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs 22mm joint.

and "PRO" 220 Watts (black) at £131 (from Antex)
Warmup 2 mins
1st joint 20 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs (diameter not stated).

both have extra heads availlable for 8-22mm but only have 15mm head
supplied, 22mm £11 extra.

Phil

Might this not be a job for Hep2o or similar push-fit?

Difficult access, no need for hot work, etc?

--
Ron

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:41:26 -0000, Andrew Mawson wrote:

I'm led to believe that they do work, if a bit slowly and they are
spendy.

Spendy?

But for a one off job like that, I'd clear away any dust and debris and
then spray the area liberally with water from a squeezy spray bottle,
and put baco foil behind pipes as you solder them to protect the wood.

Excessive debris I'd remove but I'd use one of the proper protective
mats behind the pipe rather than foil, they are really very good at
stopping the heat getting at things.

Most problems with a blow lamp comes from when it is put down still
burning after the joint has been made and the user is still
concentrating on the joint not where the flame or its heat is
going...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

I have tried one. It was very slow on 15mm and on 22mm I gave up and got
the blowtorch out. I suggest vacuuming well, to remove cobwebs and dust
that might catch fire, wetting the surrounding area down well and using
a heat shield cloth behind the joint. It might also be a good idea to
take a fire extinguisher in with you, just in case.

Colin Bignell

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:51:32 +0000, Ron Lowe wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

A search throws up the Antex Pipemaster which their ads and video claims
will do the trick
http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?...rdPosit ion=1

There are 2 versions
"DIY" 120 Watts (yellow) at £48 (from CPC)
Warmup 4 mins
Usage time (time to complete the joint presumably?)
15mm 1st joint 20-30 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs
22mm 1st joint 30-40 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs 22mm joint.

and "PRO" 220 Watts (black) at £131 (from Antex)
Warmup 2 mins
1st joint 20 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs (diameter not stated).

both have extra heads availlable for 8-22mm but only have 15mm head
supplied, 22mm £11 extra.

Phil

Might this not be a job for Hep2o or similar push-fit?

No, these pipes are already there and they need to be copper - don't
ask! The plastic pipe clips have given way* and let the long piperun
sag, and this I believe may, over the years, have fractured some of the
capiliary joints. My plan is to replace the crappy plastic clips with
decent saddle clamps that can take the weight, then reflow the soldered
joints

*said clips are the springy plastic ones that you click the pipe into,
and are clearly not suitable for inverted use. They are screwed to the
bottom of the joists so the weight of the pipe has just pulled it out of
them.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:53:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:41:26 -0000, Andrew Mawson wrote:

I'm led to believe that they do work, if a bit slowly and they are
spendy.

Spendy?

But for a one off job like that, I'd clear away any dust and debris and
then spray the area liberally with water from a squeezy spray bottle,
and put baco foil behind pipes as you solder them to protect the wood.

Excessive debris I'd remove but I'd use one of the proper protective
mats behind the pipe rather than foil, they are really very good at
stopping the heat getting at things.

Most problems with a blow lamp comes from when it is put down still
burning after the joint has been made and the user is still
concentrating on the joint not where the flame or its heat is
going...

Indeed... been there!!

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:22 +0000, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

I have tried one. It was very slow on 15mm and on 22mm I gave up and got
the blowtorch out. I suggest vacuuming well, to remove cobwebs and dust
that might catch fire, wetting the surrounding area down well and using
a heat shield cloth behind the joint. It might also be a good idea to
take a fire extinguisher in with you, just in case.

Do you know if that was the 120W or 220W version?

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are good
ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose rubble and
detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a good plan too.

To give you a better idea the crawlspace is only 24" from ground to
underside of floorboards and my copper pipe is running under the joists
(perpendicular to them), so I'll be working laying pretty much on my
back. I was concerned about the flame being only 4" to 6" immediately
below the wooden floor (not to mention 12-18" from my nose!) but I guess
if I can get the wood nice and wet and tack a heat blanket under the
boards I might get away with it! I think I will try to pin a piece of
steel sheet to the boards too as a heat deflector.

Phil

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:54:14 +0000, Phil Addison wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:22 +0000, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

I have tried one. It was very slow on 15mm and on 22mm I gave up and got
the blowtorch out. I suggest vacuuming well, to remove cobwebs and dust
that might catch fire, wetting the surrounding area down well and using
a heat shield cloth behind the joint. It might also be a good idea to
take a fire extinguisher in with you, just in case.

Do you know if that was the 120W or 220W version?

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are good
ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose rubble and
detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a good plan too.

To give you a better idea the crawlspace is only 24" from ground to
underside of floorboards and my copper pipe is running under the joists
(perpendicular to them), so I'll be working laying pretty much on my
back. I was concerned about the flame being only 4" to 6" immediately
below the wooden floor (not to mention 12-18" from my nose!) but I guess
if I can get the wood nice and wet and tack a heat blanket under the
boards I might get away with it! I think I will try to pin a piece of
steel sheet to the boards too as a heat deflector.

Phil

I did this when I was 14 (30 something years ago) - My dad was not very
good in confined spaces so he taught me how to use endfeed fittings in 22
and 15m pipe (well probablty 1/2 and 3/4 then) sounds almost identical if
not slighly more cramped conditions (but i was a but smaller then lol) Used
a staple gun to tack a heatproof mat behind each joint and had a breize
block with a groove to put the torch down on (torch was 15ft gas tube to
propane bottle type) no excitedment though lol .
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

In article , Phil Addison
writes
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:22 +0000, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

I have tried one. It was very slow on 15mm and on 22mm I gave up and got
the blowtorch out. I suggest vacuuming well, to remove cobwebs and dust
that might catch fire, wetting the surrounding area down well and using
a heat shield cloth behind the joint. It might also be a good idea to
take a fire extinguisher in with you, just in case.

Do you know if that was the 120W or 220W version?

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are good
ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose rubble and
detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a good plan too.

To give you a better idea the crawlspace is only 24" from ground to
underside of floorboards and my copper pipe is running under the joists
(perpendicular to them), so I'll be working laying pretty much on my
back. I was concerned about the flame being only 4" to 6" immediately
below the wooden floor (not to mention 12-18" from my nose!) but I guess
if I can get the wood nice and wet and tack a heat blanket under the
boards I might get away with it! I think I will try to pin a piece of
steel sheet to the boards too as a heat deflector.

I needed to make a lot of soldered joints under floors and in tight
places many years ago when these things were first launched (and cheap -
C30quid). I think the originals had 100W elements per leg so prob closer
to the pro version that you mention. Despite being a competent
electronic solderer, I found them to be worse than useless, being slow
with unreliable heat transfer and after using them for just a few joints
I changed over to a simple gas canister blowlamp and a fibreglass
heatmat that I still use today.

The heatmat fits easily behind any joint that is more than 1/2" from a
joist and protects perfectly well. The blowlamp provides even heat,
where you want it, and cools rapidly once the gas is turned off (unlike
the electric iron).

In summary, I feel safer using the blowlamp and am sure I can make
joints more rapidly and more reliably with it. 4-6" clearance to joists
is luxury, no mat reqd ;-)
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

On 11/03/2011 18:48, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:51:32 +0000, Ron wrote:



Might this not be a job for Hep2o or similar push-fit?

No, these pipes are already there and they need to be copper - don't
ask! The plastic pipe clips have given way* and let the long piperun
sag, and this I believe may, over the years, have fractured some of the
capiliary joints. My plan is to replace the crappy plastic clips with
decent saddle clamps that can take the weight, then reflow the soldered
joints

*said clips are the springy plastic ones that you click the pipe into,
and are clearly not suitable for inverted use. They are screwed to the
bottom of the joists so the weight of the pipe has just pulled it out of
them.


What are the pipes carrying, and why do they *need* to be copper? [I
know you said don't ask!]

You said they were 'dry'. Do you mean dry as in dry joint - with failed
solder, or dry with no water in - perhaps because they're gas pipes?

If they *do* have water in, you'll have a hell of a job to re-solder
without dismantling. Far better to chop out the bits with the failed
joints and join in some new bits - using copper push-fit fittings. Then
there's no risk starting a fire.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 11/03/2011 18:48, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:51:32 +0000, Ron wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

A search throws up the Antex Pipemaster which their ads and video claims
will do the trick
http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?...rdPosit ion=1

There are 2 versions
"DIY" 120 Watts (yellow) at £48 (from CPC)
Warmup 4 mins
Usage time (time to complete the joint presumably?)
15mm 1st joint 20-30 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs
22mm 1st joint 30-40 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs 22mm joint.

and "PRO" 220 Watts (black) at £131 (from Antex)
Warmup 2 mins
1st joint 20 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs (diameter not stated).

both have extra heads availlable for 8-22mm but only have 15mm head
supplied, 22mm £11 extra.

Phil

Might this not be a job for Hep2o or similar push-fit?

No, these pipes are already there and they need to be copper - don't
ask! The plastic pipe clips have given way* and let the long piperun
sag, and this I believe may, over the years, have fractured some of the
capiliary joints. My plan is to replace the crappy plastic clips with
decent saddle clamps that can take the weight, then reflow the soldered
joints

*said clips are the springy plastic ones that you click the pipe into,
and are clearly not suitable for inverted use. They are screwed to the
bottom of the joists so the weight of the pipe has just pulled it out of
them.


Well, whatever.

But I think you may be dismissing push-fit fittings a bit too readily.

They work on copper pipe too.

--
Ron

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:12:51 +0000, fred wrote:

In article , Phil Addison
writes
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:22 +0000, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

I have tried one. It was very slow on 15mm and on 22mm I gave up and got
the blowtorch out. I suggest vacuuming well, to remove cobwebs and dust
that might catch fire, wetting the surrounding area down well and using
a heat shield cloth behind the joint. It might also be a good idea to
take a fire extinguisher in with you, just in case.

Do you know if that was the 120W or 220W version?

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are good
ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose rubble and
detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a good plan too.

To give you a better idea the crawlspace is only 24" from ground to
underside of floorboards and my copper pipe is running under the joists
(perpendicular to them), so I'll be working laying pretty much on my
back. I was concerned about the flame being only 4" to 6" immediately
below the wooden floor (not to mention 12-18" from my nose!) but I guess
if I can get the wood nice and wet and tack a heat blanket under the
boards I might get away with it! I think I will try to pin a piece of
steel sheet to the boards too as a heat deflector.

I needed to make a lot of soldered joints under floors and in tight
places many years ago when these things were first launched (and cheap -
C30quid). I think the originals had 100W elements per leg so prob closer
to the pro version that you mention. Despite being a competent
electronic solderer, I found them to be worse than useless, being slow
with unreliable heat transfer and after using them for just a few joints

Hmmm, I rather thought that might be the case.

I changed over to a simple gas canister blowlamp and a fibreglass
heatmat that I still use today.

The heatmat fits easily behind any joint that is more than 1/2" from a
joist and protects perfectly well. The blowlamp provides even heat,
where you want it, and cools rapidly once the gas is turned off (unlike
the electric iron).

In summary, I feel safer using the blowlamp and am sure I can make
joints more rapidly and more reliably with it. 4-6" clearance to joists
is luxury, no mat reqd ;-)

No not to joists, but to the floorboards immediately above.

But this all giving me confidence to stay with my blow-torch.

--
fred

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:23:59 +0000, Ghostrecon wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:54:14 +0000, Phil Addison wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:22 +0000, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

I have tried one. It was very slow on 15mm and on 22mm I gave up and got
the blowtorch out. I suggest vacuuming well, to remove cobwebs and dust
that might catch fire, wetting the surrounding area down well and using
a heat shield cloth behind the joint. It might also be a good idea to
take a fire extinguisher in with you, just in case.

Do you know if that was the 120W or 220W version?

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are good
ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose rubble and
detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a good plan too.

To give you a better idea the crawlspace is only 24" from ground to
underside of floorboards and my copper pipe is running under the joists
(perpendicular to them), so I'll be working laying pretty much on my
back. I was concerned about the flame being only 4" to 6" immediately
below the wooden floor (not to mention 12-18" from my nose!) but I guess
if I can get the wood nice and wet and tack a heat blanket under the
boards I might get away with it! I think I will try to pin a piece of
steel sheet to the boards too as a heat deflector.

Phil

I did this when I was 14 (30 something years ago) - My dad was not very
good in confined spaces so he taught me how to use endfeed fittings in 22
and 15m pipe (well probablty 1/2 and 3/4 then) sounds almost identical if
not slighly more cramped conditions (but i was a but smaller then lol) Used
a staple gun to tack a heatproof mat behind each joint

Good idea, I've got one of those.

and had a breize
block with a groove to put the torch down on (torch was 15ft gas tube to

Another good idea, I think a thermalite block will be easier to handle
down there.

propane bottle type) no excitedment though lol .
--
(º•.¸(¨*•.¸ ¸.•*¨)¸.•º)
.•°•. Nik .•°•.

Phil Addison writes:

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?
A search throws up the Antex Pipemaster which their ads and video claims
will do the trick
http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?...rdPosit ion=1
There are 2 versions
"DIY" 120 Watts (yellow) at £48 (from CPC)
Warmup 4 mins
Usage time (time to complete the joint presumably?)
15mm 1st joint 20-30 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs
22mm 1st joint 30-40 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs 22mm joint.
and "PRO" 220 Watts (black) at £131 (from Antex)
Warmup 2 mins
1st joint 20 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs (diameter not stated).

I've used an Antex one bought many years ago (not to hand and can't
remember the wattage) and it was fine on the old lead solder joints,
very handy for work in tightly confined spaces, but failed on lead-free
(maybe that was partly because of residual water in the pipe though).

For lead-free, you can get asbestos protective matting from places like
B&Q, put the lid of a steak pie tin behind the pipe to deflect/reflect
the flame onto the back of the pipe, with the matting positioned as
seems best, dampen the wood first of all, and use a propane torch.

Still difficult not to leave a few scorch marks though.

The matting might not actually be asbestos nowadays.

--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
@ O n e t e l
. c o m

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:36:35 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 11/03/2011 18:48, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:51:32 +0000, Ron wrote:



Might this not be a job for Hep2o or similar push-fit?

No, these pipes are already there and they need to be copper - don't
ask! The plastic pipe clips have given way* and let the long piperun
sag, and this I believe may, over the years, have fractured some of the
capiliary joints. My plan is to replace the crappy plastic clips with
decent saddle clamps that can take the weight, then reflow the soldered
joints

*said clips are the springy plastic ones that you click the pipe into,
and are clearly not suitable for inverted use. They are screwed to the
bottom of the joists so the weight of the pipe has just pulled it out of
them.


What are the pipes carrying, and why do they *need* to be copper? [I
know you said don't ask!]

Well, they are copper and they are already there, and just want the
capillaries reflowed (probably).

You said they were 'dry'. Do you mean dry as in dry joint - with failed
solder, or dry with no water in - perhaps because they're gas pipes?

The later

If they *do* have water in, you'll have a hell of a job to re-solder
without dismantling. Far better to chop out the bits with the failed
joints and join in some new bits - using copper push-fit fittings.

I don't think copper push-fit fittings is compatible with gas? And isn't
compression prohibited where its inaccessible?

Phil

Then there's no risk starting a fire.

--
Cheers,
Roger

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 22:26:22 +0000, Ron Lowe wrote:

On 11/03/2011 18:48, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:51:32 +0000, Ron wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

A search throws up the Antex Pipemaster which their ads and video claims
will do the trick
http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?...rdPosit ion=1

There are 2 versions
"DIY" 120 Watts (yellow) at £48 (from CPC)
Warmup 4 mins
Usage time (time to complete the joint presumably?)
15mm 1st joint 20-30 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs
22mm 1st joint 30-40 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs 22mm joint.

and "PRO" 220 Watts (black) at £131 (from Antex)
Warmup 2 mins
1st joint 20 secs, 2nd joint 10 secs (diameter not stated).

both have extra heads availlable for 8-22mm but only have 15mm head
supplied, 22mm £11 extra.

Phil

Might this not be a job for Hep2o or similar push-fit?

No, these pipes are already there and they need to be copper - don't
ask! The plastic pipe clips have given way* and let the long piperun
sag, and this I believe may, over the years, have fractured some of the
capiliary joints. My plan is to replace the crappy plastic clips with
decent saddle clamps that can take the weight, then reflow the soldered
joints

*said clips are the springy plastic ones that you click the pipe into,
and are clearly not suitable for inverted use. They are screwed to the
bottom of the joists so the weight of the pipe has just pulled it out of
them.


Well, whatever.

But I think you may be dismissing push-fit fittings a bit too readily.

No not dismissing it, I've used loads of Hep2O on my central heating and
cold water, love it, but not allowed in this application. See reply to
Roger.

They work on copper pipe too.

Yep, thats very handy - cu to cu, cu to hep, hep to hep.

Phil

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 23:14:51 +0000, Phil Addison wrote:

I don't think copper push-fit fittings is compatible with gas? And isn't
compression prohibited where its inaccessible?

Indeed (though it obviously *is* accessible if you're accessing it to
deal with - what a gas leak under the floor? Nasty.)

Also acid flux is a no-no for gas - heat-activated only, please.

Water spray and fibreglass solder mat and take care!


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

On 11/03/2011 18:54, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:22 +0000, "Nightjar\"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 11/03/2011 17:24, Phil Addison wrote:
I have to solder some dry 22mm copper pipe under the floorboards.
Normally I would lift a board and use my trysty gas torch but moving
furniture, lifting carpet etc is a major problem in this room and I do
have access to a crawl space beneath. So it occurs to me I can do the
job from below without the furniture hassle but I don't fancy risking
setting fire to the joists/floorboards especially while I am ensconced
in a low crawlspace.

So the question is, will an electric soldering gun be any good? Anyone
tried them?

I have tried one. It was very slow on 15mm and on 22mm I gave up and got
the blowtorch out. I suggest vacuuming well, to remove cobwebs and dust
that might catch fire, wetting the surrounding area down well and using
a heat shield cloth behind the joint. It might also be a good idea to
take a fire extinguisher in with you, just in case.

Do you know if that was the 120W or 220W version?

It was about 25 years ago and I don't now recall whether there was even
a choice. I bought it at a plumber's merchant, so I would expect it to
have been intended for professional use.


I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are good
ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose rubble and
detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a good plan too.

Don't use CO2 if the space is restricted or it might extinguish you too.

To give you a better idea the crawlspace is only 24" from ground to
underside of floorboards and my copper pipe is running under the joists
(perpendicular to them), so I'll be working laying pretty much on my
back. I was concerned about the flame being only 4" to 6" immediately
below the wooden floor (not to mention 12-18" from my nose!) but I guess
if I can get the wood nice and wet and tack a heat blanket under the
boards I might get away with it! I think I will try to pin a piece of
steel sheet to the boards too as a heat deflector.

I tried an experiment with a heat blanket when I first got one. I played
the blowlamp on it until the surface glowed red. I then felt the other
side, which was too hot to hold, but not too hot to touch. That is a
surprising accurate indication of a temperature of around 60C.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar "cpb"@" wrote:

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are
good ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose
rubble and detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a
good plan too.

Don't use CO2 if the space is restricted or it might extinguish you
too.

I was thinking that too. Can you do a couple of squirts with a water one, or
do they insist on venting the entire contents once started?

On 12/03/2011 12:23, GB wrote:
Nightjar"cpb"@" wrote:

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are
good ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose
rubble and detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a
good plan too.

Don't use CO2 if the space is restricted or it might extinguish you
too.

I was thinking that too. Can you do a couple of squirts with a water one, or
do they insist on venting the entire contents once started?

SFAIK, you rupture a pressurised gas container that then empties the
container. they also tend to be a bit bulky for taking into a small
space. If anything that can act as tinder has been vacuumed away first,
the fire extinguisher is probably overkill, but I would take a small dry
powder one with me. Alternatively, take the end of a water hose and have
someone reliable standing by to turn the tap on. You should have a
second person around when working in confined spaces anyway.

Colin Bignell

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 12:37:00 +0000, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 12/03/2011 12:23, GB wrote:
Nightjar"cpb"@" wrote:

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are
good ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose
rubble and detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a
good plan too.

Don't use CO2 if the space is restricted or it might extinguish you
too.

I was thinking that too. Can you do a couple of squirts with a water one, or
do they insist on venting the entire contents once started?

SFAIK, you rupture a pressurised gas container that then empties the
container. they also tend to be a bit bulky for taking into a small
space. If anything that can act as tinder has been vacuumed away first,
the fire extinguisher is probably overkill, but I would take a small dry
powder one with me. Alternatively, take the end of a water hose and have
someone reliable standing by to turn the tap on.

It'll be my garden hose then, with a multi-sprinkler trigger-head on it
that will give a fine spray for wetting or a big one for fire-fighting,
and doesn't need someone else to turn it on.

You should have a second person around when working in confined
spaces anyway.

That'll be swimbo keeping an eye on me.

Phil

On 12 Mar 2011 00:25:12 GMT, YAPH wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 23:14:51 +0000, Phil Addison wrote:

I don't think copper push-fit fittings is compatible with gas? And isn't
compression prohibited where its inaccessible?

Indeed (though it obviously *is* accessible if you're accessing it to

Indeed, but very easily. Is there a definition of accessible?

deal with - what a gas leak under the floor? Nasty.)

Yes, at least I think that's what is causing the faint smell - it could
be a dead rat though; next door had the ratcatcher in a while back to
clear them out from under their front porch. My under floor space is
well ventilated and it seems to be a very small leak - I've turned off
everything and the meter dial didn't budge overnight, though I realise
that's not a very sensitive test.

I really want to do a better leak test before I embark on this, but I
have to get down there anyway to properly clip up the pipe. I was
thinking of a water gauge to look for falling pressure, or is it
necessary to pump it up to a higher pressure first?

Also acid flux is a no-no for gas - heat-activated only, please.

Soldering with no flux? As I'm hoping it only needs re-flowing that's
probably ok, but I didn't think fluxless copper to copper soldering was
realistic, thats certainly my experience, or do you mean there is a
non-acid flux that can be used? What's the problem with acid flux
anyway?

Phil

On 12/03/2011 12:37, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 12/03/2011 12:23, GB wrote:
Nightjar"cpb"@" wrote:

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are
good ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose
rubble and detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a
good plan too.

Don't use CO2 if the space is restricted or it might extinguish you
too.

I was thinking that too. Can you do a couple of squirts with a water
one, or
do they insist on venting the entire contents once started?

SFAIK, you rupture a pressurised gas container that then empties the
container. they also tend to be a bit bulky for taking into a small
space.

As many generations of schoolchildren have found out, they are often
controllable :-)

On 12/03/2011 13:26, Clive George wrote:
On 12/03/2011 12:37, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 12/03/2011 12:23, GB wrote:
Nightjar"cpb"@" wrote:

I hadn't thought of wetting the surrounds and vacuuming, those are
good ideas thanks, though I have previously cleared all the loose
rubble and detritus off the ground. A fire extinguisher sounds a
good plan too.

Don't use CO2 if the space is restricted or it might extinguish you
too.

I was thinking that too. Can you do a couple of squirts with a water
one, or
do they insist on venting the entire contents once started?

SFAIK, you rupture a pressurised gas container that then empties the
container. they also tend to be a bit bulky for taking into a small
space.

As many generations of schoolchildren have found out, they are often
controllable :-)

When I was at school they were cone shaped and you turned them
upsidedown before striking them on the floor.

Colin Bignell

On 12/03/2011 13:07, Phil Addison wrote:


I really want to do a better leak test before I embark on this, but I
have to get down there anyway to properly clip up the pipe. I was
thinking of a water gauge to look for falling pressure, or is it
necessary to pump it up to a higher pressure first?


You should be able to test it ok at normal gas pressure. I have a
feeling that a certain drop in pressure is acceptable - but you'd need
to look up the rules.

I would start by getting a can of spray-on leak detector. If you
surround each joint with foam, you'll see bubbles if there are any leaks.

Now that we know they're gas pipes, I'll retract my push-fit suggestion.
It would have saved time if you'd said so at the outset.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:04:46 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 12/03/2011 13:07, Phil Addison wrote:


I really want to do a better leak test before I embark on this, but I
have to get down there anyway to properly clip up the pipe. I was
thinking of a water gauge to look for falling pressure, or is it
necessary to pump it up to a higher pressure first?


You should be able to test it ok at normal gas pressure. I have a
feeling that a certain drop in pressure is acceptable - but you'd need
to look up the rules.

I've got a water gauge on it now. The initial pressure was 25cms of
water, and over the last 2.5 hours its been dropping at about 2.5
cms/hour from a volume of pipework which I estimate to be about 40
litres.

Having measured a leak rate I'm fairly convinced it needs sorting out
but I'm surprised how small it is. Would you expect this size of leak to
be responsible for a vague and intermittent spell of (possibly*) gas in
the house, given the pipework is in a fairly** well ventilated crawl
space under the floor?

* We are not even sure it IS a gas smell!

** 3x 9"x6" airbricks at the front, 2x 9"x6" and 3x 9"x3" airbricks at
various locations at the back.

I would start by getting a can of spray-on leak detector. If you
surround each joint with foam, you'll see bubbles if there are any leaks.

Now that we know they're gas pipes, I'll retract my push-fit suggestion.
It would have saved time if you'd said so at the outset.

Yes indeed, sorry about that, mae culpa! All I can say is I was
initially concentrating on a tool for reflowing existing joints, it
hadn't occurred to me to replace them.

Phil

--
Cheers,
Roger

On 11/03/2011 18:48, Phil Addison wrote:

No, these pipes are already there and they need to be copper - don't
ask! The plastic pipe clips have given way* and let the long piperun
sag, and this I believe may, over the years, have fractured some of the
capiliary joints. My plan is to replace the crappy plastic clips with
decent saddle clamps that can take the weight, then reflow the soldered
joints

*said clips are the springy plastic ones that you click the pipe into,
and are clearly not suitable for inverted use. They are screwed to the
bottom of the joists so the weight of the pipe has just pulled it out of
them.

Here at Lowe Towers, under my suspended floor, the copper pipework is
suspended from the joists by off-cuts of 2.5 T+E nailed to each side of
the joist, providing a loop or cradle. It's still perfectly
serviceable, and I'd guess it was installed back in the '70s.

Presumably zero cost to the plumber who installed it at the same time
the sparky was leaving off-cuts around.

Makes a change from the plumber nailing the live T+E, I suppose.

--
Ron

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:51:53 +0000, Ron Lowe wrote:

On 11/03/2011 18:48, Phil Addison wrote:

No, these pipes are already there and they need to be copper - don't
ask! The plastic pipe clips have given way* and let the long piperun
sag, and this I believe may, over the years, have fractured some of the
capiliary joints. My plan is to replace the crappy plastic clips with
decent saddle clamps that can take the weight, then reflow the soldered
joints

*said clips are the springy plastic ones that you click the pipe into,
and are clearly not suitable for inverted use. They are screwed to the
bottom of the joists so the weight of the pipe has just pulled it out of
them.

Here at Lowe Towers, under my suspended floor, the copper pipework is
suspended from the joists by off-cuts of 2.5 T+E nailed to each side of
the joist, providing a loop or cradle. It's still perfectly
serviceable, and I'd guess it was installed back in the '70s.

Presumably zero cost to the plumber who installed it at the same time
the sparky was leaving off-cuts around.

Makes a change from the plumber nailing the live T+E, I suppose.

Now that IS a good idea, easy to fit, easily adjustable height, no
worries about any pipe expansion, cheap, and readily to hand too. The
last point alone makes it a winner for me!!

Sits back and waits to hear the downside...

One for the handy tips file?

Phil

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:27:44 +0000, Phil Addison
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:04:46 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 12/03/2011 13:07, Phil Addison wrote:


I really want to do a better leak test before I embark on this, but I
have to get down there anyway to properly clip up the pipe. I was
thinking of a water gauge to look for falling pressure, or is it
necessary to pump it up to a higher pressure first?


You should be able to test it ok at normal gas pressure. I have a
feeling that a certain drop in pressure is acceptable - but you'd need
to look up the rules.

I've got a water gauge on it now. The initial pressure was 25cms of
water, and over the last 2.5 hours its been dropping at about 2.5
cms/hour from a volume of pipework which I estimate to be about 40
litres.

Having measured a leak rate I'm fairly convinced it needs sorting out
but I'm surprised how small it is. Would you expect this size of leak to
be responsible for a vague and intermittent spell of (possibly*) gas in
the house, given the pipework is in a fairly** well ventilated crawl
space under the floor?

* We are not even sure it IS a gas smell!

The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very
small concentrations.

In article ,
says...
The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very
small concentrations.


"Perfumant" is a bit decorative, isn't it? "Stench" would seem nearer
the mark.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

Skipweasel wrote:
In article ,
says...
The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very
small concentrations.


"Perfumant" is a bit decorative, isn't it? "Stench" would seem nearer
the mark.

I think the Gas Board called it an odourant.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Skipweasel wrote:
In article ,
says...
The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very
small concentrations.


"Perfumant" is a bit decorative, isn't it? "Stench" would seem nearer
the mark.

I think the Gas Board called it an odourant.

Good search tip ... "The gas odorant (sic) used in the UK today is a
blend of mercaptan and sulphide" - thanks to Mr. Google. Though they
don't say which mercaptan or which sulphide (not H2S as it is poisonous,
I presume !). Methyl mercaptan used to have a (since surpassed) record
for smelliest stuff, if I remember my old GBOR's correctly.

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

Nick Leverton ) wibbled on Monday 14 March 2011 23:50:

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Skipweasel wrote:
In article ,
says...
The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very
small concentrations.


"Perfumant" is a bit decorative, isn't it? "Stench" would seem nearer
the mark.

I think the Gas Board called it an odourant.

Good search tip ... "The gas odorant (sic) used in the UK today is a
blend of mercaptan and sulphide" - thanks to Mr. Google. Though they

don't say which mercaptan or which sulphide (not H2S as it is poisonous,

And H2S anaesthetises the olfactory receptors so the smell seems to dimunish
even though concentrations remain level - would be a bit useless in this
context.



I presume !). Methyl mercaptan used to have a (since surpassed) record
for smelliest stuff, if I remember my old GBOR's correctly.

Nick

--
Tim Watts

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:16:56 +0000, Appelation Controlee
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:27:44 +0000, Phil Addison
wrote:
I've got a water gauge on it now. The initial pressure was 25cms of
water, and over the last 2.5 hours its been dropping at about 2.5
cms/hour from a volume of pipework which I estimate to be about 40
litres.

Having measured a leak rate I'm fairly convinced it needs sorting out
but I'm surprised how small it is. Would you expect this size of leak to
be responsible for a vague and intermittent spell of (possibly*) gas in
the house, given the pipework is in a fairly** well ventilated crawl
space under the floor?

* We are not even sure it IS a gas smell!

The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very

It certainly did that! Now with the gas main turned off we can still
smell it. I think at least some of it is lingering in the carpets that
it presumably percolated up through.

Any advice on how to do the leak test? I don't want to dive under the
crawl space with the gas turned on and potentially leaking, and with it
turned off the pressure will probably fall away before I've loacated the
leak with bubbly detector foam. So I'm thinking of rigging a bicycle
pump to flush the gas out and pressurise it with air instead, which can
be kept topped up. Bear in mind the leak is under the floor so it will
take quite a while to grovel around to find which joint/s is/are
leaking. Is that a reasonable approach?

Heads to shed to look for schrader valve

Phil

In article ,
says...
The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very

It certainly did that! Now with the gas main turned off we can still
smell it. I think at least some of it is lingering in the carpets that
it presumably percolated up through.

IIRC they reduced the amount a few years ago as they were getting too
many leaks reported - BICBW.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

Phil Addison wrote:

Here at Lowe Towers, under my suspended floor, the copper pipework is
suspended from the joists by off-cuts of 2.5 T+E nailed to each side
of the joist, providing a loop or cradle. It's still perfectly
serviceable, and I'd guess it was installed back in the '70s.

Presumably zero cost to the plumber who installed it at the same time
the sparky was leaving off-cuts around.

Makes a change from the plumber nailing the live T+E, I suppose.

Now that IS a good idea, easy to fit, easily adjustable height, no
worries about any pipe expansion, cheap, and readily to hand too. The
last point alone makes it a winner for me!!

Sits back and waits to hear the downside...

Hot water pipes makes the insulation smell?

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 11:22:59 +0000, Phil Addison
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:16:56 +0000, Appelation Controlee
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:27:44 +0000, Phil Addison
wrote:
I've got a water gauge on it now. The initial pressure was 25cms of
water, and over the last 2.5 hours its been dropping at about 2.5
cms/hour from a volume of pipework which I estimate to be about 40
litres.

Having measured a leak rate I'm fairly convinced it needs sorting out
but I'm surprised how small it is. Would you expect this size of leak to
be responsible for a vague and intermittent spell of (possibly*) gas in
the house, given the pipework is in a fairly** well ventilated crawl
space under the floor?

* We are not even sure it IS a gas smell!

The perfumant added to gas is intended to get your attention in very

It certainly did that! Now with the gas main turned off we can still
smell it. I think at least some of it is lingering in the carpets that
it presumably percolated up through.

Any advice on how to do the leak test? I don't want to dive under the
crawl space with the gas turned on and potentially leaking, and with it
turned off the pressure will probably fall away before I've loacated the
leak with bubbly detector foam. So I'm thinking of rigging a bicycle
pump to flush the gas out and pressurise it with air instead, which can
be kept topped up. Bear in mind the leak is under the floor so it will
take quite a while to grovel around to find which joint/s is/are
leaking. Is that a reasonable approach?

Heads to shed to look for schrader valve

Hmm no advice???

Anyway, I got the floorboards up today and guess what - a dead rat
laying right under where the (faint) smell is strongest. But I've
re-checked the leak rate today with proper manometer rather than my
lash-up of plastic tube and string, and got pretty much the same leak -
dropping 1-2 cms/hr.

Also made a nice air-pump adaptor to tee into the manometer line; 8mm
microbore tee and football adaptor with integral Shrader valve, and
bicycle pump, so I can pressure test tomorrow and try out my can of B&Q
squirty stuff (Rothenberger).

So still not sure if I have a real leak or its just the dead rat, or his
mates further away where I haven't looked yet. To be honest he didn't
seem to pong much.

Phil

In message on Thu, 17 Mar 2011
22:51:17 +0000
Phil Addison wrote:

Anyway, I got the floorboards up today and guess what - a dead rat
laying right under where the (faint) smell is strongest. But I've
re-checked the leak rate today with proper manometer rather than my
lash-up of plastic tube and string, and got pretty much the same leak -
dropping 1-2 cms/hr.

Also made a nice air-pump adaptor to tee into the manometer line; 8mm
microbore tee and football adaptor with integral Shrader valve, and
bicycle pump, so I can pressure test tomorrow and try out my can of B&Q
squirty stuff (Rothenberger).

So still not sure if I have a real leak or its just the dead rat, or his
mates further away where I haven't looked yet. To be honest he didn't
seem to pong much.


This reminds me of the days when selenium rectifiers were common in TV sets.

They consisted of a number of rectifier elements on a rod, each having its own
square heatsink. The problem was when one element broke down but the remainder
were still capable of working with no discernible effect to the working of the
TV.

The smell would be released very slowly and continue for a long time after the
TV was switched off so that, with normal use, it was virtually continuous.
This, coupled with the slow release which enabled the smell to permeate
throughout the entire room, the TV rarely came under suspicion.

The smell was vile and, to the uninitiated, completely unrecognisable but with
sufficient similarities to other noxious odours to cause lots of confusion.

Eventually the recifier would fail completely or, quite commonly, some other
fault might develop. Enter the repairman, who only needed one whiff[1] to
identify the source ...

Someone documented some of the mistaken causes of the smell once. These
included calls to the gas board to investigate gas leaks which, of course,
didn't exist, local councils sending in the rat catcher and, in one house at
least, the dog had been singled out as the culprit!

[1] No training required beyond fitting one of these devices. They always
succeeded in emitting a couple of little whiffs as you soldered the connecting
wires ...
--

Terry

Someone documented some of the mistaken causes of the smell once. These
included calls to the gas board to investigate gas leaks which, of course,
didn't exist, local councils sending in the rat catcher and, in one house at
least, the dog had been singled out as the culprit!

[1] No training required beyond fitting one of these devices. They always
succeeded in emitting a couple of little whiffs as you soldered the connecting
wires ...


Jeezz!, didn't they stink. Used to wire a silicon diode across them with
a series limiter resistor. Mind you a long time ago now;!..

Used to do that on some olde valve sets the guvnor either reckoned it
was cheaper of we couldn't get the right valves anymore;!
--
Tony Sayer