if one side proposes to put a workshop (under new PD rights) near an
unmarked boundary - what should both sides be discussing ?
if it subsequently came to pass that said structure "strayed" onto the
other side's land (perhaps when years later measured by some surveyor
type) what would the general legal situation be at that later time?

TIA
Jim K

On Jan 29, 1:48*pm, Jim K wrote:
if one side proposes to put a workshop (under new PD rights) near an
unmarked boundary - what should both sides be discussing ?
if it subsequently came to pass that said structure "strayed" onto the
other side's land (perhaps when years later measured by some surveyor
type) what would the general legal situation be at that later time?

TIA
Jim K

More than six (Ithink) years and the land under it could be yours by
adverse possession

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
if one side proposes to put a workshop (under new PD rights) near an
unmarked boundary - what should both sides be discussing ?
if it subsequently came to pass that said structure "strayed" onto the
other side's land (perhaps when years later measured by some surveyor
type) what would the general legal situation be at that later time?


Difficult! Boundaries are frequently a cause of dispute and the deeds/Land
Registry documents often don't help. Land Registry documents only show what
are known as general boundaries and these can be, and indeed usually are,
imprecise. This is largely historical since before super accurate GPS
surveying equipment became readily available it was very difficult to survey
to a high degree of accuracy. Nowadays it is relatively easy to survey with
an accuracy of a few millimetres. It would therefore be straightforward to
get an agreed boundary professionally surveyed and then get the Land
Registry entries of both properties amended to show the boundary. The only
drawback is the cost.

Peter Crosland

cynic wrote in news:d7645e03-1086-4804-9b0b-
:


More than six (Ithink) years and the land under it could be yours by
adverse possession

I think that nowadays it may be as much as 20 (fairly sure it was 12 up
until a few years ago), also the possession has to be more or less
undisputed during this time.

--

All the best,

Chris

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:01:48 -0000, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:


Land Registry documents only show what
are known as general boundaries and these can be, and indeed usually are,
imprecise. This is largely historical since before super accurate GPS
surveying equipment became readily available it was very difficult to survey
to a high degree of accuracy.

Survey instruments in common use since the mid 1700's were and are
capable of greater accuracy that "super accurate" GPS (including
PDGPS) today. The only GPS capable of centimetre accuracy is real
time kinematic carrier phase differential GPS. That requires one
accurately positioned (by conventional survey, not GPS) broadcasting
reference station within 50-100km of the point being surveyed.
Differential GPS can achieve no better than 400mm positional accuracy
which is inadequate for site survey.

Even Gunter's chain designed and introduced in 1620 by English
clergyman and mathematician Edmund Gunter enabled plots of land to be
accurately surveyed and plotted, for legal and commercial purposes.

It wasn't accuracy but expense. It was too expensive to survey all
land, especially small domestic plots where exact boundary information
was usually unimportant and often conveyed by a simple description as
they were usually defined by agreed features such as hedgerows and
walls. The same still holds true today, very few boundaries of new
properties are ascertained and recorded at the Land Registry.

Jim K wrote:
if one side proposes to put a workshop (under new PD rights) near an
unmarked boundary - what should both sides be discussing ?

Both sides should agree a boundary before any work is carried out.
You could even agree that the outer edge of the new building built
along a mutually-agreed line becomes the boundary for its extent.
But, agree it beforehand. Afterwards is always fiddly.

JGH

Is the workshop of combustible material? If so then under PD it has to
be 1m away from the boundary, which gives some useful leeway in terms
of "precision".

A very permanent brick workshop that turns out to be several metres in
someone else's land could be "interesting" though. I guess a moat and
arrow slots could be more than aesthetic in which case :-)

On Jan 29, 4:48 pm, "js.b1" wrote:
Is the workshop of combustible material? If so then under PD it has to
be 1m away from the boundary, which gives some useful leeway in terms
of "precision".

that's a good point - thanks

Jim K

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:01:48 -0000, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:


Land Registry documents only show what
are known as general boundaries and these can be, and indeed usually are,
imprecise. This is largely historical since before super accurate GPS
surveying equipment became readily available it was very difficult to
survey
to a high degree of accuracy.

Survey instruments in common use since the mid 1700's were and are
capable of greater accuracy that "super accurate" GPS (including
PDGPS) today.

Large snip

Simply untrue in practical terms. It may well be possible to determine short
distances reasonably accurately in relation to other points nearby but it is
a very time consuming process and requires highly skilled people with years
of experience to do so. The overwhelming practical advantage of a
commercial, as opposed to consumer, GPS system is the ability to record a
large number of points in a form that can be electronically transferred to a
hard copy document. To do a similar job using traditional equipement would
be totally cost ineffective

Have you got any practical suggestions to help the OP or where you just
showing off?

Peter Crosland

On Jan 29, 2:48 pm, Chris Wilson wrote:
cynic wrote in news:d7645e03-1086-4804-9b0b-
:



More than six (Ithink) years and the land under it could be yours by
adverse possession

I think that nowadays it may be as much as 20 (fairly sure it was 12 up
until a few years ago), also the possession has to be more or less
undisputed during this time.

I thought all that changed as long as the land in question is
registered with Land Registry?

Jim K

Jim K wrote in news:6ff991d5-be91-4dc9-b926-
:


I thought all that changed as long as the land in question is
registered with Land Registry?

You could well be correct.

--

All the best,

Chris

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 17:04:45 -0000, "Peter Crosland"
wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message

Survey instruments in common use since the mid 1700's were and are
capable of greater accuracy that "super accurate" GPS (including
PDGPS) today.

Large snip

Simply untrue in practical terms.

I presume you have done neither mapping nor survey?

It may well be possible to determine short
distances reasonably accurately in relation to other points nearby

It is possible to do extraordinarily long distances with great
accuracy in relation to the earth's surface - not just points nearby.
The Great Trigonometrical Survey of India started in 1802 and was
very precise (although it did take a long time and consumed more
lives than most contemporary wars). Starting at Madras it carried the
great Arc to nearly 1,500 miles in length. It measured the height of
Everest to within 39ft of the current measurement. It determined the
radius of the equatorial ellipsoids to within a fraction of a metre
compared with today's measurement. A modern Total Station is
intrinsically capable of no greater accuracy than a 1900's theodolite.

but it is
a very time consuming process and requires highly skilled people with years
of experience to do so.

It does? I've only had a few days training on using a theodolite and
practice in how to carry a line a few tens of miles accurately but
could still survey an irregular shaped domestic sized plot of land to
within a few cm in half a day. In most case a theodolite wouldn't
even be needed, chains would suffice.

The overwhelming practical advantage of a
commercial, as opposed to consumer, GPS system is the ability to record a
large number of points in a form that can be electronically transferred to a
hard copy document.

A typical plot of land even if not completely visible from a single
point hardly generates so many data points that one page on a small
field notebook would be filled. It isn't a problem which requires a
complex solution.

A Total Station is skilled hands together with a NRTK rover pole can
survey a typical domestic site quickly and accurately. A theodolite
or just a chain in skilled hands can do the same but a bit slower. The
assertion that simple site survey before GPS was incredibly difficult
to do to any level of accuracy was nonsensical.

where you just showing off?

No, I leave that to you, you are widely acknowledged to be an
acclaimed master of the art. I was merely correcting your fallacious
claims.

Jim K wrote:
I thought all that changed as long as the land in question is
registered with Land Registry?

If the land is unregistered then 12 years uninterupted open
uncontested
adverse occupation makes it the property of the occupier. Also for
registered land where the 12-year period ended before 13 Oct 2003.

Uninterupted as in continuous, no gaps, 12*365.25 days in a row.
Open as in not secret.
Uncontested as in if somebody who believes that *they* have an
interest
in the land they can chuck you off. Note that somebody who does *not*
have an interest in the land cannot chuck you off on the theorectical
"real" owner's behalf. "I think somebody else owns that land, get off"
doesn't work. "I own that land, get off" is the only legal sanction.

At the end of the 12 years continuous occupation, it's yours. It's
then
up to you to register it as yours, and then it becomes registered
land.

If the land is registered, and you took adverse possession of the land
after 13 October 2003 you operate under the terms of the 2002 Act,
the most significant difference being that the Registered Owner has
to be notified, and the possession period is 10 years, with a further
2 years for challenges.

Also, all adverse possession musy be intentional, eg not an accidental
trespass over a boundary line.

JGH

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 08:48:50 -0800 (PST), "js.b1"
wrote:

Is the workshop of combustible material? If so then under PD it has to
be 1m away from the boundary, which gives some useful leeway in terms
of "precision".

Only if it is sized between 15m2 and 30m2, below 15m2 you can
theoretically build it out of RDX

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/per.../outbuildings/

"If you want to put up small detached buildings such as a garden shed
or summerhouse in your garden, building regulations will not normally
apply if the floor area of the building is less than 15 square metres
and contains NO sleeping accommodation.

If the floor area of the building is between 15 square metres and 30
square metres, you will not normally be required to apply for building
regulations approval providing that the building contains NO sleeping
accommodation and is either at least one metre from any boundary or it
is constructed of substantially non-combustible materials."

--

On Jan 29, 1:48*pm, Jim K wrote:
if one side proposes to put a workshop (under new PD rights) near an
unmarked boundary - what should both sides be discussing ?

Establishing an agreed boundary!

MBQ

[Default] On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 17:04:45 -0000, a certain chimpanzee,
"Peter Crosland" , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
.. .

Survey instruments in common use since the mid 1700's were and are
capable of greater accuracy that "super accurate" GPS (including
PDGPS) today.

Large snip

Simply untrue in practical terms. It may well be possible to determine short
distances reasonably accurately in relation to other points nearby but it is
a very time consuming process and requires highly skilled people with years
of experience to do so. The overwhelming practical advantage of a
commercial, as opposed to consumer, GPS system is the ability to record a
large number of points in a form that can be electronically transferred to a
hard copy document. To do a similar job using traditional equipement would
be totally cost ineffective

Hardly; one of my former jobs was drawing up the deed plans for
Council house sales. We managed to get relatively accurate results
using a tape measure by triangulation. It was a job given to the
lowest of the low in the Architect's Dept Surveying section.

The rest of the section wasn't much more sophisticated; they were
still using chains into the 1990's.

Wasn't India mapped by Everest using triangulation?
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

[Default] On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 08:48:50 -0800 (PST), a certain
chimpanzee, "js.b1" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

Is the workshop of combustible material? If so then under PD it has to
be 1m away from the boundary, which gives some useful leeway in terms
of "precision".

Building Regulations (Exempt Buildings) and Planning Permission
(Permitted Development) are two completely different things.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:48:12 +0000, Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost
wrote:

Wasn't India mapped by Everest using triangulation?

Indeed, and a lot of chains, but his great theodolite was a tad
unwieldy for house survey - weighing 1/2 ton.

http://www.unlockingthearchives.rgs....esource_id=159