I am considering making some railings to go on top of a low section of wall
beside the house.
Have any of you done this?
Any advise or words of warning?

I have found this website which sell all the finials etc at reasonable cost.
http://www.brindley-steel-forging.co.uk/Catalogue.php
I also know where I can buy pre drilled bar for the horizontal rails.

My plan is to lay the pre drilled bar on the wall and use it as a template
for drilling the flags that form the capping. Then simply build the railings
in situ, having welded finials onto the upright first of all in the
workshop. The height need only be about 500mm so I am unsure whether to have
just one horizontal or two. The ends can be secured to existing higher wall
one end and a stone pillar the other. I need to take care though as the
walls and pillar are quite old.

Any advise appreciated.

Mike

On Jan 23, 12:02*pm, "MuddyMike" wrote:

I am considering making some railings to go on top of a low section of wall
beside the house.
Have any of you done this?

Brindley are a good start.


Any advise or words of warning?

Wire-feed (MAGS / MIG) is easier than stick, as cleaning up stick slag
gets tedious with this many welds. However you can use stick quite
happily on something of this scale.

Practice your welding on some spares, until you're impeccable, before
you hit the finished piece.

Panels are best welded on a flat surface, then placed into position.
If you weld the panels up completely in situ, then have some formwork
in place behind to keep it flat.

Make a simple jig for holding finials on straight before welding. A
simple V-block / roller jig is also useful for welding finials on with
a neat welded ring, working downhand all the way round the weld (i.e.
rotate the spike by hand, don't move the torch).

Forged finials weld more easily if they're heated beforehand. This
depends on their quality and metallurgy. Brindley's are good and don't
really need this. Recycling old cast iron ones can be a right pain -
you might even use a nickel rod.

Tack weld first, then do the main welds. This helps to control
warping. It's also useful to work slowly, allowing things to cool down
between welds. You shouldn't make two welds in succession unless it's
either well clamped into place, or you allow cooling time.

If you make from solid, it's heavier than you expect. You may need to
make it as multiple pieces, just for handling into place.

Flanged ends with bolts look ugly. It's better to drill the masonry
oversize, then set the railings into this traditionally, using molten
lead (or even sulphur!). You need a temporary formwork to hold it
vertical before pouring. You should also make a lead funnel from
tinplate so that it fits just in place. Wire it to the railing before
pouring.

If you're using steel rather than wrought iron, you have a risk of
long-term rusting, especially where upright rods go through rails.
Make sure that the gap between is either sealed by welding, or
receives a good zinc based rustproofing.

Paint priming is important. It's impractical to hot-dip galvanise
unless you make the panels in the workshop, but you can use a good
high zinc-content primer like Davids 182 (or similar, buy the
heaviest).

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Jan 23, 12:02 pm, "MuddyMike" wrote:

I am considering making some railings to go on top of a low section of
wall
beside the house.
Have any of you done this?

Brindley are a good start.


Any advise or words of warning?

Wire-feed (MAGS / MIG) is easier than stick, as cleaning up stick slag
gets tedious with this many welds. However you can use stick quite
happily on something of this scale.

Practice your welding on some spares, until you're impeccable, before
you hit the finished piece.

Thanks for the tips Andy.
As it happens the welding is the easy part for me, I was trained to MIG (and
TIG) weld by Crane Fruehauf many years ago and have my own MIG plant
together with a cylinder of Cougar. It will need to be a nice calm day when
I weld the final pieces together so as not to have the gas shield blown
away.

I Had already thought of creating a jig for welding the finials as I don't
want any wonky ones, but molten lead for the fixings, I had not thought of
that. Any advise on melting and handling it would be appreciated.

I am pleased hear that Brindley have a good reputation.


Mike

On Jan 23, 12:39*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Jan 23, 12:02*pm, "MuddyMike" wrote:

I am considering making some railings to go on top of a low section of wall
beside the house.
Have any of you done this?

Brindley are a good start.

Any advise or words of warning?

Wire-feed (MAGS / MIG) is easier than stick, as cleaning up stick slag
gets tedious with this many welds. However you can use stick quite
happily on something of this scale.

Practice your welding on some spares, until you're impeccable, before
you hit the finished piece.

Panels are best welded on a flat surface, then placed into position.
If you weld the panels up completely in situ, then have some formwork
in place behind to keep it flat.

Make a simple jig for holding finials on straight before welding. A
simple V-block / roller jig is also useful for welding finials on with
a neat welded ring, working downhand all the way round the weld (i.e.
rotate the spike by hand, don't move the torch).

Forged finials weld more easily if they're heated beforehand. This
depends on their quality and metallurgy. Brindley's are good and don't
really need this. Recycling old cast iron ones can be a right pain -
you might even use a nickel rod.

Tack weld first, then do the main welds. This helps to control
warping. It's also useful to work slowly, allowing things to cool down
between welds. You shouldn't make two welds in succession unless it's
either well clamped into place, or you allow cooling time.

If you make from solid, it's heavier than you expect. You may need to
make it as multiple pieces, just for handling into place.

Flanged ends with bolts look ugly. It's better to drill the masonry
oversize, then set the railings into this traditionally, using molten
lead (or even sulphur!). You need a temporary formwork to hold it
vertical before pouring. You should also make a lead funnel from
tinplate so that it fits just in place. Wire it to the railing before
pouring.

If you're using steel rather than wrought iron, you have a risk of
long-term rusting, especially where upright rods go through rails.
Make sure that the gap between is either sealed by welding, or
receives a good zinc based rustproofing.

Paint priming is important. It's impractical to hot-dip galvanise
unless you make the panels in the workshop, but you can use a good
high zinc-content primer like Davids 182 (or similar, buy the
heaviest).

Sounds like a good wiki article Andy, mind if we put it there?


NT

In message , MuddyMike
writes

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Jan 23, 12:02 pm, "MuddyMike" wrote:

I am considering making some railings to go on top of a low section of
wall
beside the house.
Have any of you done this?

Brindley are a good start.


Any advise or words of warning?

Wire-feed (MAGS / MIG) is easier than stick, as cleaning up stick slag
gets tedious with this many welds. However you can use stick quite
happily on something of this scale.

Practice your welding on some spares, until you're impeccable, before
you hit the finished piece.

Thanks for the tips Andy.
As it happens the welding is the easy part for me, I was trained to MIG (and
TIG) weld by Crane Fruehauf many years ago and have my own MIG plant
together with a cylinder of Cougar. It will need to be a nice calm day when
I weld the final pieces together so as not to have the gas shield blown
away.

I Had already thought of creating a jig for welding the finials as I don't
want any wonky ones, but molten lead for the fixings, I had not thought of
that. Any advise on melting and handling it would be appreciated.

I am pleased hear that Brindley have a good reputation.

Alternatively buy some ready made but adaptable from me:-)

Somewhere in my stored *possibles* is a pallet of second hand sheep
penning from the dispersal sale of Hertford cattle market. They were gas
axed off at ground level and from memory are around 8' long x 3' high
with 5 or so horizontal 3/4" round bar rails. Can do a photo if any
interest. Price, something over scrap value.

regards


Mike



--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
says...
I Had already thought of creating a jig for welding the finials as I don't
want any wonky ones, but molten lead for the fixings, I had not thought of
that. Any advise on melting and handling it would be appreciated.

Don't get it wrong. Getting the damned stuff out of the holes again is a
complete sod of a job. One of the first jobs I ever had, that. Getting
the lead out of the coping stones round the moat at the Tower of London.

Still got one of the scars!

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...


Any advise or words of warning?

I am pleased hear that Brindley have a good reputation.

Alternatively buy some ready made but adaptable from me:-)

Somewhere in my stored *possibles* is a pallet of second hand sheep
penning from the dispersal sale of Hertford cattle market. They were gas
axed off at ground level and from memory are around 8' long x 3' high with
5 or so horizontal 3/4" round bar rails. Can do a photo if any interest.
Price, something over scrap value.


Thanks for the offer Tim but what you describe sounds to be the wrong way
round. I plan on having vertical bars about 100mm apart. Or have I got your
description wrong?

Mike

MuddyMike submitted this idea :
I am considering making some railings to go on top of a low section of wall
beside the house.
Have any of you done this?
Any advise or words of warning?

I have found this website which sell all the finials etc at reasonable cost.
http://www.brindley-steel-forging.co.uk/Catalogue.php
I also know where I can buy pre drilled bar for the horizontal rails.

My plan is to lay the pre drilled bar on the wall and use it as a template
for drilling the flags that form the capping. Then simply build the railings
in situ, having welded finials onto the upright first of all in the
workshop. The height need only be about 500mm so I am unsure whether to have
just one horizontal or two. The ends can be secured to existing higher wall
one end and a stone pillar the other. I need to take care though as the
walls and pillar are quite old.

Any advise appreciated.

Mike

I would be inclined to suggest drilling (at least some) quite deep down
into the wall and using long steel rods on the base of the railings -
going deep down into the holes, resin fixed to maintain the stability
of walls, railings, wall and pillar.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In message , MuddyMike
writes

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
.. .


Any advise or words of warning?

I am pleased hear that Brindley have a good reputation.

Alternatively buy some ready made but adaptable from me:-)

Somewhere in my stored *possibles* is a pallet of second hand sheep
penning from the dispersal sale of Hertford cattle market. They were gas
axed off at ground level and from memory are around 8' long x 3' high with
5 or so horizontal 3/4" round bar rails. Can do a photo if any interest.
Price, something over scrap value.


Thanks for the offer Tim but what you describe sounds to be the wrong way
round. I plan on having vertical bars about 100mm apart. Or have I got your
description wrong?

No. Horizontal bars. They are not equally spaced either. Narrower gaps
at the bottom for lambs.

I have been using them as a source of suitable steel for anti-burglar
window bars.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

No. Horizontal bars. They are not equally spaced either. Narrower gaps at
the bottom for lambs.

I have been using them as a source of suitable steel for anti-burglar window bars.

Dang, just what I want - but over 1200 miles from here. I suspect it will
be cheaper to visit the local scrappie. Oh well.

In message
,
Steve Firth writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

No. Horizontal bars. They are not equally spaced either. Narrower gaps at
the bottom for lambs.

I have been using them as a source of suitable steel for anti-burglar
window bars.

Dang, just what I want - but over 1200 miles from here. I suspect it will
be cheaper to visit the local scrappie. Oh well.

I also bought some of the cattle penning. The scrappie engaged to cut
them off at floor level discovered that re-bar and concrete had been
poured down the uprights to overcome rust issues. He was not best
pleased.

Mostly gone to China now.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Jan 23, 5:48 pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article ,
says...

I Had already thought of creating a jig for welding the finials as I don't
want any wonky ones, but molten lead for the fixings, I had not thought of
that. Any advise on melting and handling it would be appreciated.

Don't get it wrong. Getting the damned stuff out of the holes again is a
complete sod of a job. One of the first jobs I ever had, that. Getting
the lead out of the coping stones round the moat at the Tower of London.

Still got one of the scars!


aha pikey past? ;)

Jim K

On Jan 26, 9:11 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,
Steve Firth writes

Tim Lamb wrote:

No. Horizontal bars. They are not equally spaced either. Narrower gaps at
the bottom for lambs.

I have been using them as a source of suitable steel for anti-burglar
window bars.

Dang, just what I want - but over 1200 miles from here. I suspect it will
be cheaper to visit the local scrappie. Oh well.

I also bought some of the cattle penning. The scrappie engaged to cut
them off at floor level discovered that re-bar and concrete had been
poured down the uprights to overcome rust issues. He was not best
pleased.

out of interest how did he end up doing it?

Jim K

Jim K wrote:

I also bought some of the cattle penning. The scrappie engaged to cut
them off at floor level discovered that re-bar and concrete had been
poured down the uprights to overcome rust issues. He was not best
pleased.

out of interest how did he end up doing it?

All together now!

ANGLE GRINDER!

On Jan 23, 2:57*pm, "MuddyMike" wrote:

I Had already thought of creating a jig for welding the finials as I don't
want any wonky ones,

molten lead for the fixings, I had not thought of
that. Any advise on melting and handling it would be appreciated.

As Skipweasel says, you want them right first time because they're a
swine to remove.

The holes are oversize and dovetailed, so that there's enough space
for the lead to flow down, rather than sticking as soon as it hits the
cold steel. Look at a Victorian park for ideas on size - I might check
Spon or Molesworth and see if there's a recommended size.

The lead is melted in a small steel pan over a gas flame. A seamless
steel pan is by far the best - old kitchen pan, paint kettle, tube
with welded base. Using an old paint can with a soldered or swaged
base can fall apart with the heat. It also needs a good handle and a
pouring spout.

My gas flame is a propane boiling ring (ex BT?), but you can use the
larger gas burner torches for roofing too. Don't overheat the lead, as
the hazard from the metal fumes is low, the hazard from lead oxide
quite a bit higher. Either way, a mask is a good idea.

Pouring it is awkward, so pre-make a custom funnel for the job. Bit of
folded tinplate, but accurate enough to fit the hole neatly and give a
pouring tundish you can hit with a heavy pan. A couple of holes near
the top allow it to be wired into place before the pour. If you're
making a habit of this, you'd probably have a funnel per hole.

Setup accuracy is crucial, so formwork the railings into place with
timber before pouring. You probably want some standard height shims
beneath the railing, resting on the stone (this is important, as any
variation here looks obvious). To stop it tipping sideways, use a
couple of long 2x4s to make an A frame (or two) over the top and tie
the railing to these. It needs to be firm enough to not move when hit
with a heavy pan of lead. Don't just have the apprentice stand there
holding it, or it _will_ end up tilted.

I've notched or fullered the submerged end of the ironwork (angle
grinder) to give a key on the lead, but I've never with fluxed, tinned
or whitewashed it to make it stick / not stick. I have heated the end
whilst in situ and just before the pour to avoid chillling the lead
too much.

In article 285120ba-0011-4972-94b7-5fb41a9a4ad7@
21g2000prv.googlegroups.com, says...
As Skipweasel says, you want them right first time because they're a
swine to remove.

The holes are oversize and dovetailed,

As it happens, the ones of the parapet of the Tower of London's moat
weren't dovetailed, just a round hole drilled in.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Jan 26, 1:41*pm, Skipweasel wrote:

As it happens, the ones of the parapet of the Tower of London's moat
weren't dovetailed, just a round hole drilled in.

Drilled stone (with a manual jumper) tends to be somewhat self-
dovetailing anyway - or if you're careless, bell-mouthed (which would
be bad). Unless you core-drill, I wouldn't expect a cylinder.

One thing to watch is the lead alloy. Don't use your stash of linotype
or bullet casting lead. Some of the harder leads will shrink slightly
after setting (look up Cerrosafe) which gives a nice clean impression
from a steel mould, but that's not what you want here. Nor does it
need your finest grade of still-pure roofing lead. Just old wheel
weights, rubbish pipe, roofing scrap, stained glass, even a bit of
solder is fine.

In message
, Jim
K writes
On Jan 26, 9:11 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,
Steve Firth writes

Tim Lamb wrote:

No. Horizontal bars. They are not equally spaced either. Narrower gaps at
the bottom for lambs.

I have been using them as a source of suitable steel for anti-burglar
window bars.

Dang, just what I want - but over 1200 miles from here. I suspect it will
be cheaper to visit the local scrappie. Oh well.

I also bought some of the cattle penning. The scrappie engaged to cut
them off at floor level discovered that re-bar and concrete had been
poured down the uprights to overcome rust issues. He was not best
pleased.

out of interest how did he end up doing it?

Gas axe and a lot of unrepeatable language.

They weigh in very well for scrap:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Jan 26, 3:34 pm, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
, Jim
K writes



On Jan 26, 9:11 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,
Steve Firth writes

Tim Lamb wrote:

No. Horizontal bars. They are not equally spaced either. Narrower gaps at
the bottom for lambs.

I have been using them as a source of suitable steel for anti-burglar
window bars.

Dang, just what I want - but over 1200 miles from here. I suspect it will
be cheaper to visit the local scrappie. Oh well.

I also bought some of the cattle penning. The scrappie engaged to cut
them off at floor level discovered that re-bar and concrete had been
poured down the uprights to overcome rust issues. He was not best
pleased.

out of interest how did he end up doing it?

Gas axe and a lot of unrepeatable language.

They weigh in very well for scrap:-)

especially with concrete and rebar inside ;)

Jim K