I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can
program CH and DHW separately. I also have Economy 7 dual rate
electricity, and it has been my practice to use the oil for both CH and
DHW. With the recent increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to
use the immerser on cheap rate for DHW. The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Syke
saying something like:

The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Start with a cold tank and see how hot it is after an hour.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Syke
saying something like:

The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Start with a cold tank and see how hot it is after an hour.
Yes, I know, but in this weather I'm just not prepared to let a whole
tank get cold, I'm afraid.

Syke submitted this idea :
I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can program CH
and DHW separately. I also have Economy 7 dual rate electricity, and it has
been my practice to use the oil for both CH and DHW. With the recent
increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to use the immerser on cheap
rate for DHW. The problem is I suspect the element is faulty. When I switch
on the immersion heater, my energy monitor shows an increase. Can I assume
from this that it is actually heating the water?

If it is showing an increase of 2 to 3Kw then the extra energy has to
be going somewhere, fair to assume it has to be going into heating the
water.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Syke wrote:
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Syke
saying something like:

The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is
actually heating the water?

Start with a cold tank and see how hot it is after an hour.
Yes, I know, but in this weather I'm just not prepared to let a whole
tank get cold, I'm afraid.


The weather has got nothing to do with it.

Just try the immersion after filling the bath.

--
Adam

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 20:58:37 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

The weather has got nothing to do with it.

True enough but if the OP is worried about oil consumption the space
heating is what will be gobbling it up. In the sumer we use about
25l/week for HW. The recent cold period has had consumption at
25l/day...

Just try the immersion after filling the bath.

And turn the HW heating from the boiler off... Remember the immersion
is only 2 or 3kW, the boiler may well be 10 times that. If all things
were equal the immersion could take 10 times longer to heat the
cylinder than the boiler.

Also the OP syas he has E7, using that to heat the cylinder during
the off peak (cheap) period may well be cheaper than the oil boiler.
If you are paying 50p/l for oil that is very roughly 5p/kWHr, when
you take into account boiler effcieny etc it's probably more like
6p/kWhr of electricty equivalent.

Note that a decent E7 cylinder will have two immersions, one near the
bottom that is only powered during the off peak times and will heat
the whole cylinder. And one near the top that can be powered at
anytime via a "boost" button on the E7 immersion controller, this
will only heat the top section of the cylinder.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Dec 11, 8:15*pm, Syke wrote:
I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can
program CH and DHW separately. *I also have Economy 7 dual rate
electricity, and it has been my practice to use the oil for both CH and
DHW. *With the recent increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to
use the immerser on cheap rate for DHW. *The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. *When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. *Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Oil's much cheaper than leccy

On Dec 12, 3:02*am, Tabby wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:15*pm, Syke wrote:

I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can
program CH and DHW separately. *I also have Economy 7 dual rate
electricity, and it has been my practice to use the oil for both CH and
DHW. *With the recent increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to
use the immerser on cheap rate for DHW. *The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. *When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. *Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Oil's much cheaper than leccy

True. Especially if you are running the house heating. Might be worth
using the IH in Summer when the boiler is off but not otherwise.

Tabby wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:15 pm, Syke wrote:
I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can
program CH and DHW separately. I also have Economy 7 dual rate
electricity, and it has been my practice to use the oil for both CH and
DHW. With the recent increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to
use the immerser on cheap rate for DHW. The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Oil's much cheaper than leccy
Really? at 66p/litre?

Syke wrote:

Tabby wrote:

Oil's much cheaper than leccy

Really? at 66p/litre?

I gather the calorific value of heating oil is around 43 MJ/kg and its
density is some 0.83 kg/l, so we get about 36 MJ/l which is 10 kWh/l.

The cost per kWh is therefore 6.6p. An oil fired boiler is not going to
be hugely efficient. Say 80% if you're lucky, which would come to 8.25p
per useful kWh.

That's cheaper than daytime electricity, but more expensive than off-peak.
Until that goes up in price too. :-(

On Dec 12, 11:47*am, Ronald Raygun
wrote:
Syke wrote:
Tabby wrote:

Oil's much cheaper than leccy

Really? *at 66p/litre?

I gather the calorific value of heating oil is around 43 MJ/kg and its
density is some 0.83 kg/l, so we get about 36 MJ/l which is 10 kWh/l.

The cost per kWh is therefore 6.6p. *An oil fired boiler is not going to
be hugely efficient. *Say 80% if you're lucky, which would come to 8.25p
per useful kWh.

That's cheaper than daytime electricity, but more expensive than off-peak..
Until that goes up in price too. *:-(

Electricity is ever more expensive to produce than oil, gas etc,
simply because its made from those fuels via lots of industrial plant.
E7 changes the picture because its a - there's a term for it I cant
think of, but a price offer based on the extra costs of generating it
rather than the whole system costs. Ie its mainly the daytime users
that pay for the plant, distribution, etc.


NT

On Dec 12, 1:49*pm, Mike Clarke wrote:
Ronald Raygun wrote:
It has got to be more efficient in terms of fuel
consumption --even if we were only using oil and no other fuel-- to
burn it centrally in one muckle industrial furnace and distribute the
energy as electricity than to distribute the oil and burn it in individual
domestic boilers

The burn may well be more efficient but then you have to add in the losses
resulting from converting the heat into electricity. The laws of
thermodynamics mean that this is quite significant even with the most
efficient turbines.

--
Mike Clarke

The best power stations have an overall efficiency of 33%.
However they burn a cheaper grade of oil (if oilburning) ie residual
fuel oil, the crap left over after the higher fractions have been
removed. It's less than a tenth the price of say kerosine, but there
are lots of problems associated with burning it. These substantially
increase the capital costs and reduce efficiency.

Mike Clarke wrote:

Ronald Raygun wrote:

It has got to be more efficient in terms of fuel
consumption --even if we were only using oil and no other fuel-- to
burn it centrally in one muckle industrial furnace and distribute the
energy as electricity than to distribute the oil and burn it in
individual domestic boilers

The burn may well be more efficient but then you have to add in the losses
resulting from converting the heat into electricity. The laws of
thermodynamics mean that this is quite significant even with the most
efficient turbines.

Sure, but the alternative losses are also pretty big. You have to fuel
the tankers to deliver the oil to households. You have to build and
maintain those tankers, and pay the drivers. You have to build, install,
and maintain the household storage tank and boiler. And you're still
lucky if 80% of the energy in the delivered oil ends up inside the house.

Coal powered Drax is getting pretty close to 40% once changes are
complete. Other power stations can and do exceed that figure (think
gas is somewhat higher).

Economy 7 is cheaper because night time demand is lower, even though a
lot of heavy industry is gone (who got shafted one by one by the power
companies, ending up buying their own gas powered electricity plant).
The cost savings in shutting down plant is pointless because of the
time to restart, equally the same goes for idling - better to get a
marginal profit than none at all.

When nukes come online things change, it is then not fuel cost but
long term operating cost.

The problem is actually infrastructure - france does not have E7
storage heaters because of the additional charges for a high current
supply, and in any case does not get as cold as say scotland oddly
enough. We have substantial LV infrastructure capacity compared to say
Italy or France, but other electric "ideas" like rechargeable cars
could create problems. The per dwelling diversity calculation goes out
the window.

Tim.. wrote:

"Syke" wrote in message
...
Tabby wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:15 pm, Syke wrote:
I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can
program CH and DHW separately. I also have Economy 7 dual rate
electricity, and it has been my practice to use the oil for both CH and
DHW. With the recent increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to
use the immerser on cheap rate for DHW. The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Oil's much cheaper than leccy
Really? at 66p/litre?

66?!

Where the hell are you being robbed for that?

58p / litre INC vat around here, and that is after a rise due to the
cold weather.

Tim..

It was from Boilerjuice. I haven't tried my usual local supplier yet
(Central Scotland) but read this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...p-by-70pc.html

In message , Tim..
writes

"Syke" wrote in message
...
Tabby wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:15 pm, Syke wrote:
I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can
program CH and DHW separately. I also have Economy 7 dual rate
electricity, and it has been my practice to use the oil for both CH and
DHW. With the recent increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to
use the immerser on cheap rate for DHW. The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Oil's much cheaper than leccy
Really? at 66p/litre?

66?!

Where the hell are you being robbed for that?

58p / litre INC vat around here, and that is after a rise due to the
cold weather.

Give us a clue! Where's 'here'?
--
Ian

On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:11:09 +0000, Syke wrote:

Really? at 66p/litre?

66?!

Where the hell are you being robbed for that?

58p / litre INC vat around here, and that is after a rise due to
the
cold weather.

It was from Boilerjuice.

Boilerjuice quoted 63.5 online to me on the 6th. Other local
suppliers were not quoting only giving a guide price that varied from
54 to 60p/l.

I have yet to ever purchase from Boilerjuice as they are consistently
more expensive than our local supplier, 10p more expensive when I
last bought in June...

Interesting telegraph article, take a peek at the graph on:

http://www.cheapestoil.co.uk/articles/trend.aspx

Extend it back to 12 months... odd that the sharp rise occurs the
moment the bad weather starts at the end of November (not). Petol and
disel have gone up but only more or less in line with the rise in
crude prices. If those fuels had gone up like 28sec oil has in the
last three weeks we should be paying around £1.40/l for them.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 12:25:34 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

In the sumer we use about 25l/week for HW. The recent cold period
has
had consumption at 25l/day...

Ouch. I am so glad I have gas, a well insulated house and that I am
often out at work in the daytime.

Well the oil I'm burning at the moment only cost 45p/l, mind you that
is fecking expensive compared to the 17p/l when we first moved here
11 years ago. Insulation is not good, it is also drafty, I am very
glad that when it was -10C min and maxs of -3 or less it wasn't also
windy. A windy week in winter produces a real spike in oil
consumption, 225l/week is not unknown so 125l/week is getting away
lightly.

Also the OP syas he has E7, using that to heat the cylinder during
the off peak (cheap) period may well be cheaper than the oil
boiler.
If you are paying 50p/l for oil that is very roughly 5p/kWHr, when
you take into account boiler effcieny etc it's probably more like
6p/kWhr of electricty equivalent.

It seems that we have come full circle and we are back to the "Worth it
to have Economy 7?" thread that I suggest the OP reads.

If you have E7 and you are heating water by oil at current oil prices
the off peak lecky option is quite likely to be the cheaper. It
depends on your useage of hot water, one bath and the average tank of
HW is gone.

I reckon that our oil use for HW alone is about 1000l/year or
10,000kwhrs. If using off peak electricty alone at 2p/unit cheaper
than oil to heat the water we could save £200 but that assumes *all*
ho****er is heated by off peak electricity, with a family that isn't
going to happen.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , Tim..
writes

"Syke" wrote in message
...
Tabby wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:15 pm, Syke wrote:
I have oil-fired central heating on a sealed system whereby I can
program CH and DHW separately. I also have Economy 7 dual rate
electricity, and it has been my practice to use the oil for both CH
and
DHW. With the recent increases in oil price, I'm wondering whether to
use the immerser on cheap rate for DHW. The problem is I suspect the
element is faulty. When I switch on the immersion heater, my energy
monitor shows an increase. Can I assume from this that it is actually
heating the water?

Oil's much cheaper than leccy
Really? at 66p/litre?

66?!

Where the hell are you being robbed for that?

58p / litre INC vat around here, and that is after a rise due to the cold
weather.

Give us a clue! Where's 'here'?


South Shropshire.

I have 4 suppliers I have an account with. They all get a call when fuel is
needed, and always barter them down a penny or two. Obviously you have to
make the delivery worth their while. (1000l +)



Tim.