Getting fed up with (and increasingly not fit to deal with) plastic gutter
that parts at the joints after every summer, no matter how hard the clips
seem to hold it in place.

Luckily it seems to be the lower sections that seem to move most, so I can
at least reach them when fit enough, but is there some sort of non slip
brace that can bridge the joints? Could I just drill and wire them or would
this crack the plastic when it tried to creep again?

S

On Oct 1, 10:47 am, "Spamlet" wrote:
Getting fed up with (and increasingly not fit to deal with) plastic gutter
that parts at the joints after every summer, no matter how hard the clips
seem to hold it in place.

Luckily it seems to be the lower sections that seem to move most, so I can
at least reach them when fit enough, but is there some sort of non slip
brace that can bridge the joints? Could I just drill and wire them or would
this crack the plastic when it tried to creep again?

I just drill mine and put a stainless steel screw and nut in. Of
course there are expansion joints at the ends but the gutter would
rather pull apart at the glued joins
..

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:47:44 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Getting fed up with (and increasingly not fit to deal with) plastic
gutter that parts at the joints after every summer, no matter how hard
the clips seem to hold it in place.

Sounds like it's expanding in the warmer months, and then when the cold
comes it's not able to contract and slide as it should - maybe one of the
supports toward the end of the run is damaged, misaligned, jammed by dirt
etc.?

It can probably be sorted out "properly" - or you can probably get away
with screwing it together at the joints where it usually parts, and
hopefully force it into behaving properly :-)

cheers

Jules

"Jules Richardson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:47:44 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Getting fed up with (and increasingly not fit to deal with) plastic
gutter that parts at the joints after every summer, no matter how hard
the clips seem to hold it in place.

Sounds like it's expanding in the warmer months, and then when the cold
comes it's not able to contract and slide as it should - maybe one of the
supports toward the end of the run is damaged, misaligned, jammed by dirt
etc.?

It can probably be sorted out "properly" - or you can probably get away
with screwing it together at the joints where it usually parts, and
hopefully force it into behaving properly :-)

cheers

Jules

Thank's Jules,

I'm afraid the guttering was put in by a bunch of roofers who were not
exactly the most conscienscious of folk as it turned out, and after an
outlay of several thousands to fix the roof up properly a few years back,
the whole roof really needs retiling properly 'again'. So, twas they that
fixed the gutters, and I count myself lucky that it seems to be just the
lower ones where the clip joints just will not stay together.

I've clamped them back with knuckle-breaking force several years in a row
now, but come the Autumn, they are always apart again and the joins are
conveniently over the front and back doors:-(

I think if Matty has got away with bolts that is probably the way to go, or
perhaps another job for my old standby, stainless coathanger wire.

Cheers to you and he,

S

Spamlet wrote:
"Jules Richardson" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:47:44 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Getting fed up with (and increasingly not fit to deal with) plastic
gutter that parts at the joints after every summer, no matter how
hard the clips seem to hold it in place.

Sounds like it's expanding in the warmer months, and then when the
cold comes it's not able to contract and slide as it should - maybe
one of the supports toward the end of the run is damaged,
misaligned, jammed by dirt etc.?

It can probably be sorted out "properly" - or you can probably get
away with screwing it together at the joints where it usually parts,
and hopefully force it into behaving properly :-)

cheers

Jules

Thank's Jules,

I'm afraid the guttering was put in by a bunch of roofers who were not
exactly the most conscienscious of folk as it turned out, and after an
outlay of several thousands to fix the roof up properly a few years
back, the whole roof really needs retiling properly 'again'. So,
twas they that fixed the gutters, and I count myself lucky that it
seems to be just the lower ones where the clip joints just will not
stay together.
I've clamped them back with knuckle-breaking force several years in a
row now, but come the Autumn, they are always apart again and the
joins are conveniently over the front and back doors:-(

I think if Matty has got away with bolts that is probably the way to
go, or perhaps another job for my old standby, stainless coathanger
wire.
Cheers to you and he,

S

You can't force plastic to do your bidding - it's going to expand and
contract whether you like it or not.

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are often
supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and expand by
the same amount if put up in winter, what you need is shorter lengths and
more joints, thus giving the guttering more space to expand and contract
into, so the solution lies in cutting your guttering at 2 or 2.5m intervals
and installing extra jointers.

Black and brown guttering is much worse behaved than white due to heat
absorption, but white is often a lot more expensive, probably for this
reason.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Phil L wrote:

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are often
supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and expand by
the same amount if put up in winter

That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is approx
0.05 mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only expand by
about 12mm, still got be be allowed for but 4" would be a but difficult
to handle.

Andy Burns wrote:
Phil L wrote:

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are often
supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used
in one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and
expand by
the same amount if put up in winter

That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is approx
0.05 mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only expand by
about 12mm, still got be be allowed for but 4" would be a but difficult
to handle.

Tats sounds about right. Problem is that after a few +- 12mm it works
its way to one end and falls out!

"Phil L" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:
"Jules Richardson" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:47:44 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Getting fed up with (and increasingly not fit to deal with) plastic
gutter that parts at the joints after every summer, no matter how
hard the clips seem to hold it in place.

Sounds like it's expanding in the warmer months, and then when the
cold comes it's not able to contract and slide as it should - maybe
one of the supports toward the end of the run is damaged,
misaligned, jammed by dirt etc.?

It can probably be sorted out "properly" - or you can probably get
away with screwing it together at the joints where it usually parts,
and hopefully force it into behaving properly :-)

cheers

Jules

Thank's Jules,

I'm afraid the guttering was put in by a bunch of roofers who were not
exactly the most conscienscious of folk as it turned out, and after an
outlay of several thousands to fix the roof up properly a few years
back, the whole roof really needs retiling properly 'again'. So,
twas they that fixed the gutters, and I count myself lucky that it
seems to be just the lower ones where the clip joints just will not
stay together.
I've clamped them back with knuckle-breaking force several years in a
row now, but come the Autumn, they are always apart again and the
joins are conveniently over the front and back doors:-(

I think if Matty has got away with bolts that is probably the way to
go, or perhaps another job for my old standby, stainless coathanger
wire.
Cheers to you and he,

S

You can't force plastic to do your bidding - it's going to expand and
contract whether you like it or not.

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are often
supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in
one piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and
expand by the same amount if put up in winter, what you need is shorter
lengths and more joints, thus giving the guttering more space to expand
and contract into, so the solution lies in cutting your guttering at 2 or
2.5m intervals and installing extra jointers.

Black and brown guttering is much worse behaved than white due to heat
absorption, but white is often a lot more expensive, probably for this
reason.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Good points, thanks Phil.
Seems, counter-intuitive, that several short bits don't add up to one long
bit as it were!

My old ones were asbestos and painted up a treat with no expansion (only
sparrows nests but we don't have sparrows any more!)

S

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
Phil L wrote:

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are often
supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in
one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and expand
by
the same amount if put up in winter

That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is approx 0.05
mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only expand by
about 12mm, still got be be allowed for but 4" would be a but difficult to
handle.

I think it's not so much the expansion all in one go, but, rather like
carpet creep, it moves one way and then doesn't move back, then moves a bit
more the next.day etc. And, thinking about it I can now imagine why:

The gutter is clamped down onto the rubber seals, but once it shrinks the
rubber will pop up again and stop it moving back when it expands the next
day. By which token, fitting in the winter might help.

More to this than meets the eye (as usual :-)

S

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Andy Burns wrote:
Phil L wrote:

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are
often
supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in
one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and expand
by
the same amount if put up in winter

That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is approx 0.05
mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only expand by
about 12mm, still got be be allowed for but 4" would be a but difficult
to handle.

Tats sounds about right. Problem is that after a few +- 12mm it works its
way to one end and falls out!


Indeed it does - shame I can't sew it down like I did the carpet :-)

S

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:39:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and
expand by the same amount if put up in winter

That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is
approx
0.05 mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only
expand by
about 12mm,

Tats sounds about right. Problem is that after a few +- 12mm it works
its way to one end and falls out!

The joints should slip and slide along the length, maybe they just
need cleaning and smear of silicone grease. While you are at check
any intermediate brackets as well, maybe s smear on them as well. The
joints shouldn't be installed jamed up tight either but with a bit of
gap to allow for movement.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Spamlet wrote:
"Jules Richardson" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 23:47:44 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Getting fed up with (and increasingly not fit to deal with) plastic
gutter that parts at the joints after every summer, no matter how
hard the clips seem to hold it in place.

Sounds like it's expanding in the warmer months, and then when the
cold comes it's not able to contract and slide as it should - maybe
one of the supports toward the end of the run is damaged,
misaligned, jammed by dirt etc.?

It can probably be sorted out "properly" - or you can probably get
away with screwing it together at the joints where it usually parts,
and hopefully force it into behaving properly :-)

cheers

Jules

Thank's Jules,

I'm afraid the guttering was put in by a bunch of roofers who were not
exactly the most conscienscious of folk as it turned out, and after an
outlay of several thousands to fix the roof up properly a few years
back, the whole roof really needs retiling properly 'again'. So,
twas they that fixed the gutters, and I count myself lucky that it
seems to be just the lower ones where the clip joints just will not
stay together.

Sounds like it wasnt installed properly. It rarely is IME, I sort loads of
it out.

Guttering expands & contracts with temperature change as Jules said.

Inside each joiner or fitting is a mark about halfway in and when its fitted
the end of the gutter is supposed to be aligned with that mark. If its
pushed right in the gutter can buckle upwards in the heat or if not pushed
in enough it will slip out.

Nobody though seems to take acount of the ambient temperature when
installing it. For example, if installed on a hot day and not pushed quite
up to the mark it can contract enough o come out.

I've clamped them back with knuckle-breaking force several years in a
row now, but come the Autumn, they are always apart again and the
joins are conveniently over the front and back doors:-(

Uncanny that - they always seem to be :-)

You need to check each joint & fitting to make sure all the gutter touches
the mark. I've had to add extra lengths to stop it popping.

Find the shortest run & replace that length with a slightly longer piece.

I think if Matty has got away with bolts that is probably the way to
go, or perhaps another job for my old standby, stainless coathanger
wire.

If you bolt it together you are stopping the ability to expand/contract.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Andy Burns wrote:
Phil L wrote:

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are
often supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to
be used in one piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in
summer and expand by the same amount if put up in winter

That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is approx
0.05 mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only expand by
about 12mm, still got be be allowed for but 4" would be a but
difficult to handle.

I don't doubt you have the figures right, but experience tells me to agree
with Phil.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Spamlet wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Andy Burns wrote:
Phil L wrote:

The problem usually lies in the length of guttering used - they are
often
supplied in 4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in
one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and expand
by
the same amount if put up in winter
That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is approx 0.05
mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only expand by
about 12mm, still got be be allowed for but 4" would be a but difficult
to handle.
Tats sounds about right. Problem is that after a few +- 12mm it works its
way to one end and falls out!


Indeed it does - shame I can't sew it down like I did the carpet :-)


course you can. What is pvc cement for?

Lock one end of a long run and let the other end do the slidey bit.

FFS you could probably cement the whole lot together anyway.

I've done that is some of my pushfit downpipes cos they kept falling apart..




S

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:39:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and
expand by the same amount if put up in winter
That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is
approx
0.05 mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only
expand by
about 12mm,
Tats sounds about right. Problem is that after a few +- 12mm it works
its way to one end and falls out!

The joints should slip and slide along the length, maybe they just
need cleaning and smear of silicone grease. While you are at check
any intermediate brackets as well, maybe s smear on them as well. The
joints shouldn't be installed jamed up tight either but with a bit of
gap to allow for movement.

Nah. glue em all up solid and let the support brackets do the slidey bit
I say!

On Oct 2, 7:23 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Nobody though seems to take acount of the ambient temperature when
installing it. For example, if installed on a hot day and not pushed quite
up to the mark it can contract enough o come out.

All the expansion joints in the gutter that we recently installed had
a scale with temperatures on them.

I think if Matty has got away with bolts that is probably the way to
go, or perhaps another job for my old standby, stainless coathanger
wire.

If you bolt it together you are stopping the ability to expand/contract.

I bolt mine together at the joins that are not supposed to expand/
contract. A joiner about 15 mm wide is glued but the glue doesn't hold.

Matty F wrote:
On Oct 2, 7:23 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Nobody though seems to take acount of the ambient temperature when
installing it. For example, if installed on a hot day and not
pushed quite up to the mark it can contract enough o come out.

All the expansion joints in the gutter that we recently installed had
a scale with temperatures on them.

Never seen that before, what a good idea.

NZ seems to have the edge over GB when it comes to gutters.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:39:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

4 or 5 metre lengths, IMV this is way too long to be used in one
piece as it will contract by up to 100mm if put up in summer and
expand by the same amount if put up in winter
That doesn't sound right, coefficient of expansion for PVC is
approx
0.05 mm/m/C

so a 5m length even over a 50C temperature range, would only
expand by
about 12mm,
Tats sounds about right. Problem is that after a few +- 12mm it works
its way to one end and falls out!

The joints should slip and slide along the length, maybe they just
need cleaning and smear of silicone grease. While you are at check
any intermediate brackets as well, maybe s smear on them as well. The
joints shouldn't be installed jamed up tight either but with a bit of
gap to allow for movement.

Nah. glue em all up solid and let the support brackets do the slidey bit I
say!


That sounds more like it: but then why do they come with these fiddly clips
and rubber seals?

S

On Oct 3, 5:29 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 2, 7:23 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Nobody though seems to take acount of the ambient temperature when
installing it. For example, if installed on a hot day and not
pushed quite up to the mark it can contract enough o come out.

All the expansion joints in the gutter that we recently installed had
a scale with temperatures on them.

Never seen that before, what a good idea.

NZ seems to have the edge over GB when it comes to gutters.

Here's the start of the gutter installation.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ztayw4.jpg

The outlet on the plank is the one with the temperature scale on it.
We have used external brackets because there's an enormous amount of
leaves falling in the gutter and it's easier to clean out without
brackets in the way.
Note the plank is sitting on brackets that attach to bolts that
protrude all around the hut, which is great for the high side of the
hut:
http://i52.tinypic.com/d8ztz.jpg

Note also the solar water heater on the roof. The water from the
gutter is electrically pumped to a huge water tank up the hill. So,
free hot water.

Matty F wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:29 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 2, 7:23 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Nobody though seems to take acount of the ambient temperature when
installing it. For example, if installed on a hot day and not
pushed quite up to the mark it can contract enough o come out.

All the expansion joints in the gutter that we recently installed
had a scale with temperatures on them.

Never seen that before, what a good idea.

NZ seems to have the edge over GB when it comes to gutters.

Here's the start of the gutter installation.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ztayw4.jpg

The outlet on the plank is the one with the temperature scale on it.
We have used external brackets because there's an enormous amount of
leaves falling in the gutter and it's easier to clean out without
brackets in the way.

Only ever seen external brackets over here. What do internal look like?



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Oct 4, 6:46 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:29 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 2, 7:23 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Nobody though seems to take acount of the ambient temperature when
installing it. For example, if installed on a hot day and not
pushed quite up to the mark it can contract enough o come out.

All the expansion joints in the gutter that we recently installed
had a scale with temperatures on them.

Never seen that before, what a good idea.

NZ seems to have the edge over GB when it comes to gutters.

Here's the start of the gutter installation.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ztayw4.jpg

The outlet on the plank is the one with the temperature scale on it.
We have used external brackets because there's an enormous amount of
leaves falling in the gutter and it's easier to clean out without
brackets in the way.

Only ever seen external brackets over here. What do internal look like?
Here's an installation guide:
http://www.mitre10.co.nz/how_to_guid...fm?sect ion=6

The brackets are straight and the gutters hook over and clip on. I
prefer the internal brackets. They are stronger for leaning ladders
against, and the brackets can't be seen from the gound so the gutters
have an uncluttered look.

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:04:52 -0700, Matty F wrote:

On Oct 2, 7:23 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Nobody though seems to take acount of the ambient temperature when
installing it. For example, if installed on a hot day and not pushed
quite up to the mark it can contract enough o come out.

All the expansion joints in the gutter that we recently installed had a
scale with temperatures on them.

For mine, it was actually on the 'collector' part that sits between the
gutter and downspout - it had a lines showing different expansion factors
for different lengths of guttering and temperature ranges. Buggered if I
could make sense of it, though, so I just winged* it :-)

* I did wait for an "average" day and then centred the hole in the
gutter, plus made sure that the ends of each 12' piece were a sensible
distance from the support brackets.

Oh very few houses here bother to collect roof run-off into any kind of
drainage system / soakaway - people just let it spill from the downspout
straight onto the surrounding ground. I don't recall ever seeing that in
any other country.

cheers

Jules

On Sun, 03 Oct 2010 14:28:06 -0700, Matty F wrote:
Only ever seen external brackets over here. What do internal look
like?
Here's an installation guide:
http://www.mitre10.co.nz/how_to_guides/exterior/
how_to_install_pvc_spouting_and_downpipes.cfm?sect ion=6

The brackets are straight and the gutters hook over and clip on. I
prefer the internal brackets. They are stronger for leaning ladders
against, and the brackets can't be seen from the gound so the gutters
have an uncluttered look.

I've only ever seen internal ones here. I had metal ones last year, and
ice build-up in winter tore the whole lot down - the supplied fixing
screws snapped where they attached to the fascia.

I've replaced with plastic ones this year and will see how that goes. I
think the problem with the metal ones was that they had a U-shaped
portion, so the fixing screws went through metal, then an inch or so of
gap, then more metal; under severe load the U-shaped portion would
distort and make the screw go slack, at which point the whole gutter was
able to twist and snap the screws. With the plastic ones, the screw just
goes through a big lump of plastic, so the gutter should remain clamped
tight to the house even under extreme load.

cheers

Jules