Hi,

My daughter's bedroom is north facing, so as part of the design I'm thinking
of providing a powerful fluorescent ceiling wash light with one of two long
tubes mounted on a white shelf about 4-5" deep and 3" down from the ceiling
(ie you don't see the tubes in normal use but access is easy for changing).
This will all be painted with ceiling emulsion which should make it
disappear to some extent.

I'd like to choose particular control gear (good HF stuff) and particular
tubes (nice daylight with a good spectrum) rather than use a stock fitting.

Option 1: Tubeless fittings with electronic HF gear - can't seem to find
any, anyone have any ideas?

Option 2: DIY. Found the connector caps, and could mount the tube on terry
clips. Regarding the control gear, I'd need to enclose that (or at least the
terminals at both ends). This could be mounted above the ceiling.

How hot do the electronic ones get? Would they object to being mounted in a
plastic box - would it need air vents?

TIA

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Someone wrote:

Hi,

My daughter's bedroom is north facing, so as part of the design I'm thinking
of providing a powerful fluorescent ceiling wash light with one of two long
tubes mounted on a white shelf about 4-5" deep and 3" down from the ceiling
(ie you don't see the tubes in normal use but access is easy for changing).
This will all be painted with ceiling emulsion which should make it
disappear to some extent.

I'd like to choose particular control gear (good HF stuff) and particular
tubes (nice daylight with a good spectrum) rather than use a stock fitting.

Option 1: Tubeless fittings with electronic HF gear - can't seem to find
any, anyone have any ideas?

Option 2: DIY. Found the connector caps, and could mount the tube on terry
clips. Regarding the control gear, I'd need to enclose that (or at least the
terminals at both ends). This could be mounted above the ceiling.

How hot do the electronic ones get? Would they object to being mounted in a
plastic box - would it need air vents?

TIA

Cheers

Tim


Shelf or trough lighting is a good plan generally. But 3" from the
ceiling? It wont look good. You'll get very bad light distribution,
and the low light angle means the flaws of the plastering will be writ
large across the ceiling.

I presume you can mount it lower, but if for some reason you really
can't, eg a 6' high ceiling, then to make 3" down work you'd want to
put the lights all round the room perimeter and run them at low power
on dimmable ballasts.

Daylight is one of the worst tube choices available, and will look
truly grim in the evening. 3500K is much better for home lighting. For
good quality light pick a high CRI tube, preferably triphosphor.

For ballasts any electronic ballast will do the job. You might or
might not want to pay extra for dimming, it saves operating energy in
a bedroom as well as looking much better.

Ballasts: sounds like you need a gear tray, which has everything on
it. These are common in commercial use. HPF or LPF doesnt really
matter if youre using an electronic ballast, LPF is cheaper. If you
wanted to use an uninsulated ballast you can enlose it using EML if
you fix it properly, then no ventilation problems.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...scent_Lighting


NT

NT
wibbled on Friday 09 July 2010 11:35



Shelf or trough lighting is a good plan generally. But 3" from the
ceiling? It wont look good. You'll get very bad light distribution,
and the low light angle means the flaws of the plastering will be writ
large across the ceiling.

3" was a starting point - but I take your point. The ceiling has been
replastered so it's on the "winning" side


I presume you can mount it lower, but if for some reason you really
can't, eg a 6' high ceiling, then to make 3" down work you'd want to
put the lights all round the room perimeter and run them at low power
on dimmable ballasts.

Because the room is L shaped (well, sort of) I was thinking anyway to light
the two long sides, which will soften the funny wall opposite.


Daylight is one of the worst tube choices available, and will look
truly grim in the evening. 3500K is much better for home lighting. For
good quality light pick a high CRI tube, preferably triphosphor.

OK - I hadn't fully specified the tubes yet (partly which I want to divorce
the tubs from the fittings). What I wanted was good honest bright light with
a good spectral spread and no flickering so it's a bit more like a well lit
south facing room (on demand).


For ballasts any electronic ballast will do the job. You might or
might not want to pay extra for dimming, it saves operating energy in
a bedroom as well as looking much better.

Dimming is an option. There's already a GU10 multispot going in the middle
of the room for "bedroom lighting". The tubes were an afterthought to add
background lighting when I realised that even in summer the internal
lighting from the large window is dreadful. So for normal "bedtime", she'd
probably have the tubes off and use the GU10. The tubes are there for
daytime use to liven up the room, which is why I initially though of using
daylight.

Cost of running is not an issue for me for 100W +/- of tubes.

Ballasts: sounds like you need a gear tray, which has everything on
it. These are common in commercial use. HPF or LPF doesnt really
matter if youre using an electronic ballast, LPF is cheaper. If you
wanted to use an uninsulated ballast you can enlose it using EML if
you fix it properly, then no ventilation problems.

I thought about gear tray - seemed to suddenly get more expensive (being
industrial)...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...scent_Lighting

Having a look now - ta.

Cheers

Tim
--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
Hi,

My daughter's bedroom is north facing, so as part of the design I'm thinking
of providing a powerful fluorescent ceiling wash light with one of two long
tubes mounted on a white shelf about 4-5" deep and 3" down from the ceiling
(ie you don't see the tubes in normal use but access is easy for changing).
This will all be painted with ceiling emulsion which should make it
disappear to some extent.

I'd like to choose particular control gear (good HF stuff) and particular
tubes (nice daylight with a good spectrum) rather than use a stock fitting.

You almost certainly don't want daylight - it will look pale blue
and your daughter will look very ill ;-) Depending on the lighting
level you are going for, you'll want somewhere between 2700K and
4000K. I mentioned the Kruithof curve recently in another article,
but if you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve and
assume you aren't going to get above 400 lux, you want a max of
about 3500K.

Most tubes in this country are tri-phosphor (i.e. red, green, and blue
phosphors mixed, to give the desired white), and I wouldn't bother
considering anything else unless you have tried this and find there's
a problem.

I have been using the newer T5 tubes in this application. The smaller
tube size means they're easier to hide on top of cupboards (or shelves).
You also have a choice of two different power rating per tube length
(three in one case), depending on your lighting requirements. You can
find these in the range 3000K - 4000K. I wrote a wikipedia section on
them some time back (although someone else recently moved it into a
different wikipedia article for no good reason, but that's wikipedia
for you!)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluores...e#New_T5_tubes

Option 1: Tubeless fittings with electronic HF gear - can't seem to find
any, anyone have any ideas?

eBay is the best source of HF control gear IME, although you sometimes
have to wait until someone is selling exactly what you're after.

Option 2: DIY. Found the connector caps, and could mount the tube on terry
clips. Regarding the control gear, I'd need to enclose that (or at least the
terminals at both ends). This could be mounted above the ceiling.

How hot do the electronic ones get? Would they object to being mounted in a
plastic box - would it need air vents?

Modern ones don't get very hot, but they must still be allowed to
cool, either by ventilation or by conduction to a metal case.
One solution I have used is a small plastic project box, cut in half,
and each half fitted over just the ends and connections of the control
gear, with the body exposed for cooling. Note that the T5 tubes do get
hot, the HO ones particularly so.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

someone wrote:
NT * wibbled on Friday 09 July 2010 11:35

Shelf or trough lighting is a good plan generally. But 3" from the
ceiling? It wont look good. You'll get very bad light distribution,
and the low light angle means the flaws of the plastering will be writ
large across the ceiling.

3" was a starting point - but I take your point. The ceiling has been
replastered so it's on the "winning" side

If you hold a bulb 3" from the ceiling with all other lighting off
you'll soon see what I mean.


I presume you can mount it lower, but if for some reason you really
can't, eg a 6' high ceiling, then to make 3" down work you'd want to
put the lights all round the room perimeter and run them at low power
on dimmable ballasts.

Because the room is L shaped (well, sort of) I was thinking anyway to light
the two long sides, which will soften the funny wall opposite.



Daylight is one of the worst tube choices available, and will look
truly grim in the evening. 3500K is much better for home lighting. For
good quality light pick a high CRI tube, preferably triphosphor.

OK - I hadn't fully specified the tubes yet (partly which I want to divorce
the tubs from the fittings). What I wanted was good honest bright light with
a good spectral spread and no flickering so it's a bit more like a well lit
south facing room (on demand).

Electronic ballast gets you no flicker. Good spectral spread is hard
to come by in fluorescent lighting, but a triphosphor tube of 82 CRI
satisfies almost everyone. If you've got oil paintings on the wall and
demand precise colours, you can get CRI 90+ tubes.


For ballasts any electronic ballast will do the job. You might or
might not want to pay extra for dimming, it saves operating energy in
a bedroom as well as looking much better.

Dimming is an option. There's already a GU10 multispot going in the middle
of the room for "bedroom lighting". The tubes were an afterthought to add
background lighting when I realised that even in summer the internal
lighting from the large window is dreadful. So for normal "bedtime", she'd
probably have the tubes off and use the GU10. The tubes are there for
daytime use to liven up the room, which is why I initially though of using
daylight.

Cost of running is not an issue for me for 100W +/- of tubes.

In that case I'd go dimmable. It'll pay back all its cost and give
much more pleasant and flexible lighting.


Ballasts: sounds like you need a gear tray, which has everything on
it. These are common in commercial use. HPF or LPF doesnt really
matter if youre using an electronic ballast, LPF is cheaper. If you
wanted to use an uninsulated ballast you can enlose it using EML if
you fix it properly, then no ventilation problems.

I thought about gear tray - seemed to suddenly get more expensive (being
industrial)...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...scent_Lighting

Having a look now - ta.

Cheers

Tim

NT

On 09/07/2010 10:16, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

My daughter's bedroom is north facing, so as part of the design I'm thinking
of providing a powerful fluorescent ceiling wash light with one of two long
tubes mounted on a white shelf about 4-5" deep and 3" down from the ceiling
(ie you don't see the tubes in normal use but access is easy for changing).
This will all be painted with ceiling emulsion which should make it
disappear to some extent.

I'd like to choose particular control gear (good HF stuff) and particular
tubes (nice daylight with a good spectrum) rather than use a stock fitting.

Option 1: Tubeless fittings with electronic HF gear - can't seem to find
any, anyone have any ideas?

Option 2: DIY. Found the connector caps, and could mount the tube on terry
clips. Regarding the control gear, I'd need to enclose that (or at least the
terminals at both ends). This could be mounted above the ceiling.

How hot do the electronic ones get? Would they object to being mounted in a
plastic box - would it need air vents?

TIA

Cheers

Tim


Hello,

I would think very hard about use fluorescent lighting, personally I
find it very unpleasant, it has a very poor quality of light. Instead I
would recommend you fit halogen lighting, this produces by far the best
quality of light.

You don't have to use the small recessed bulbs, there are GLS sized
halogen energy savers available (saving 30% to 50% of an ordinary bulb)

Depending on the size of the room you could get away with just one
ordinary sized bulb. In my office I have just one ordinary light fitting
which contains a 105W halogen energy saver giving an equivalent of 150W
of light output. e.g.

http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/pro...ergy-saver-bc/

The madness of this bulb is that because it is an energy saver it is not
restricted to the 100W bulb ban, so you could directly replace all your
100W bulbs in the house with these and actually use more energy!

My local Homebase had these on offer a couple of months back at about
£1.30, I stocked up!

Another alternative are LED bulbs, there are now LEDs available that can
replace an existing GLS bulb and give a quite good level of light. e.g.

http://www.lightonenergy.co.uk/7W-LE...7w-philips.htm

So 7W gives an equivalent of 40W and has a life of 45000 hours. The
downside is obviously the price. Also what about installing some GU10
down-lighters and using:

http://www.lightonenergy.co.uk/7W-ML...7w-philips.htm

You could use 4 GU10s in the room each with one of the above bulbs and
only use 28W of energy, giving an equivalent of 200W and lasting 45000
hours.

LEDs are just going to get better and better and should be the only
realistic choice in a few years.

Anyway just my thoughts,

Graham

Andrew Gabriel
wibbled on Friday 09 July 2010 12:35


You almost certainly don't want daylight - it will look pale blue
and your daughter will look very ill ;-) Depending on the lighting
level you are going for, you'll want somewhere between 2700K and
4000K. I mentioned the Kruithof curve recently in another article,
but if you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve and
assume you aren't going to get above 400 lux, you want a max of
about 3500K.

Thanks Andres. Having read the Wiki, that makes sense.

Most tubes in this country are tri-phosphor (i.e. red, green, and blue
phosphors mixed, to give the desired white), and I wouldn't bother
considering anything else unless you have tried this and find there's
a problem.

I "understand" CRI now. I suspect tri-phosphor will be fine.

I have been using the newer T5 tubes in this application. The smaller
tube size means they're easier to hide on top of cupboards (or shelves).
You also have a choice of two different power rating per tube length
(three in one case), depending on your lighting requirements. You can
find these in the range 3000K - 4000K. I wrote a wikipedia section on
them some time back (although someone else recently moved it into a
different wikipedia article for no good reason, but that's wikipedia
for you!)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluores...e#New_T5_tubes


I think for this application, T8 would be fine, but I'm looking at your
suggestion too.

Option 1: Tubeless fittings with electronic HF gear - can't seem to find
any, anyone have any ideas?

eBay is the best source of HF control gear IME, although you sometimes
have to wait until someone is selling exactly what you're after.

OK - need to search harder - there wasn't much with my terms.

http://www.cannonelectrical.com/HF_2...ck tronic.htm

However, looks just the ticket for an un-enclosed device. 2 5' tubes off one
box. Very cost effective.

In fact I could probably get 2 el-cheapo 5 foot fittings from somewhere
local, throw the ballast and tube away, shove the above into one fitting and
crimp some T+E along to the other fitting (they will be adjacent). Possibly
cheaper and easier than buying the caps, terry clips and random plastic
box... (Allowing for P&P on the above!)

Option 2: DIY. Found the connector caps, and could mount the tube on
terry clips. Regarding the control gear, I'd need to enclose that (or at
least the terminals at both ends). This could be mounted above the
ceiling.

How hot do the electronic ones get? Would they object to being mounted in
a plastic box - would it need air vents?

Modern ones don't get very hot, but they must still be allowed to
cool, either by ventilation or by conduction to a metal case.
One solution I have used is a small plastic project box, cut in half,
and each half fitted over just the ends and connections of the control
gear, with the body exposed for cooling. Note that the T5 tubes do get
hot, the HO ones particularly so.


That sounds like a plan if I can't house the gear into a fitting.

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Graham Jones
wibbled on Friday 09 July 2010 13:12


Hello,

I would think very hard about use fluorescent lighting, personally I
find it very unpleasant, it has a very poor quality of light. Instead I
would recommend you fit halogen lighting, this produces by far the best
quality of light.

This will be in addition to a 5-way GU10 halogen fitting. The tubes are to
bring up the general illuminance of the room when required, but the regular
light will be the incandescent.


You don't have to use the small recessed bulbs, there are GLS sized
halogen energy savers available (saving 30% to 50% of an ordinary bulb)

Depending on the size of the room you could get away with just one
ordinary sized bulb. In my office I have just one ordinary light fitting
which contains a 105W halogen energy saver giving an equivalent of 150W
of light output. e.g.

http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/pro...alogen-energy-
saver-bc/

The madness of this bulb is that because it is an energy saver it is not
restricted to the 100W bulb ban, so you could directly replace all your
100W bulbs in the house with these and actually use more energy!

Yes - I've used similar before - most impressive.

My local Homebase had these on offer a couple of months back at about
£1.30, I stocked up!

Another alternative are LED bulbs, there are now LEDs available that can
replace an existing GLS bulb and give a quite good level of light. e.g.

http://www.lightonenergy.co.uk/7W-LE...7w-philips.htm

So 7W gives an equivalent of 40W and has a life of 45000 hours. The
downside is obviously the price. Also what about installing some GU10
down-lighters and using:

That's my long term plan with the GU10 fittings - sensible lamp format lends
itself to LEDs. There seem to be some headway already, so I'm confident that
in a few years when I'm fed up with replacing blown GU10s, that LEDs will
have "arrived".

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Tim Watts
wibbled on Friday 09 July 2010 10:16

Hi,

My daughter's bedroom is north facing, so as part of the design I'm
thinking of providing a powerful fluorescent ceiling wash light with one
of two long tubes mounted on a white shelf about 4-5" deep and 3" down
from the ceiling (ie you don't see the tubes in normal use but access is
easy for changing). This will all be painted with ceiling emulsion which
should make it disappear to some extent.

I'd like to choose particular control gear (good HF stuff) and particular
tubes (nice daylight with a good spectrum) rather than use a stock
fitting.

Option 1: Tubeless fittings with electronic HF gear - can't seem to find
any, anyone have any ideas?

Option 2: DIY. Found the connector caps, and could mount the tube on terry
clips. Regarding the control gear, I'd need to enclose that (or at least
the terminals at both ends). This could be mounted above the ceiling.

How hot do the electronic ones get? Would they object to being mounted in
a plastic box - would it need air vents?

TIA

Cheers

Tim


On a related note, for anyone interested, I just noticed my favourite CFL
supplier has a bunch of bits I've never noticed befo

http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Fittings/Lamp-Holders

There are some really decent looking T8 end caps there so I will dispense
with the fitting and roll my own so to speak. T5 too.

Now all I need is a design for the lighting trough.

Off to google now, but I'm looking for a bit of MDF with a curved end-on
profile available in long lengths. I don't have coving in that room (yet) so
if I can get something pretty that I can hide tubes in, I could run it all
the way around to make it look "designed" rather than ad-hoc. Paint it all
white and start the wall colour just below.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.