HI Folks

Bit of a long shot - but I know there's folks here who have experience
of photo-etching in the context of PCB manufacture...

I'm looking to use a photo-etching process to produce stencils which are
then used for glass etching, like a tiny screen-print process...

An exhaustive search of the net suggested that only one company sells
this kit - it's called 'Dura-Film'. Process is: - create positive image
on transparency film, use pos image to uv-expose the Dura-Film stencil,
then develop the stencil, which then 'loses' the unexposed areas and can
be used to screen-print the etching cream onto the glass.

Only slight fly in the ointment is that the company is in the USA, and
they're rather over-enthusiastic with the markup on their shipping costs
g - so I'm wondering whether the two fluids (a Developer and a Stencil
Activator) could be procured over here in Ireland - so saving on
shipping costs.

Question is - how to find out what these liquids are ?
I've seen CSI - where they put a few drops of 'something' into a mass
spectrometer and it tells them exactly what it is - but how does it work
in real life ? (Presumably an analytical lab report is going to cost a
few quid ?)

The Developer is a clear liquid with no odour - so no clues there.
The 'Activator' is used to adhere the stencil to the piece to be etched,
and stinks of acetone.... but what else...?
I guess it's possible that the same chemicals are used in the PCB or
metal label business..? - and might be available over this side of the
water..?

I have asked the supplier 'what's in the bottles' - but fully expect
them to tell me where to go!

Anybody got any experience in this area please ?

Thanks
Adrian

Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks

Bit of a long shot - but I know there's folks here who have experience
of photo-etching in the context of PCB manufacture...

I'm looking to use a photo-etching process to produce stencils which are
then used for glass etching, like a tiny screen-print process...


Have you considered getting stencils lasered directly out of stainless?

You can get dura film from Mastergrave.

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/catalog...ategory_ID=137

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/downloa...Etchomatic.pdf

Dave Osborne wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks

Bit of a long shot - but I know there's folks here who have experience
of photo-etching in the context of PCB manufacture...

I'm looking to use a photo-etching process to produce stencils which
are then used for glass etching, like a tiny screen-print process...


Have you considered getting stencils lasered directly out of stainless?

You can get dura film from Mastergrave.

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/catalog...ategory_ID=137

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/downloa...Etchomatic.pdf

why use metal? laser cut vinyl film, peel and stick, use, throw.

Or use a sheet of acrylic.?

I can laser cut either.

HI Dave

On 26/05/2010 20:21, Dave Osborne wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks

Bit of a long shot - but I know there's folks here who have experience
of photo-etching in the context of PCB manufacture...

I'm looking to use a photo-etching process to produce stencils which
are then used for glass etching, like a tiny screen-print process...


Have you considered getting stencils lasered directly out of stainless?

That's an idea - but it's likely to be a small number off each design -
and the ability to produce a design & stencil 'locally' on my pc is a
big advantage. I might also end up etching non-flat items like glasses
etc - not sure if the stainless would conform to those surfaces?


You can get dura film from Mastergrave.

So you can - I'm sure I emailed them asking for details but didn't get a
reply - however the kit in your second link looks to be the same as I've
just purchased....
so it mught be possible to purchase the consumables from mastergrave
(will have to see what their postage/shipping rates are to Ireland!)

I was planning on making a UV-led exposure box - having seen what people
are charging for a UV-bulb and a bit of bent ali!

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/catalog...ategory_ID=137

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/downloa...Etchomatic.pdf

Many thanks!
Adrian

HI NP

On 26/05/2010 20:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Osborne wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks

Bit of a long shot - but I know there's folks here who have
experience of photo-etching in the context of PCB manufacture...

I'm looking to use a photo-etching process to produce stencils which
are then used for glass etching, like a tiny screen-print process...


Have you considered getting stencils lasered directly out of stainless?

You can get dura film from Mastergrave.

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/catalog...ategory_ID=137

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/downloa...Etchomatic.pdf

why use metal? laser cut vinyl film, peel and stick, use, throw.

Or use a sheet of acrylic.?

I can laser cut either.



I need (I think!) a stencil that can be either flat or conforming to the
shape of a rounded surface (drinking glass etc) - and may be a one-off
or smallish run (say up to 20).

I know it's not quite the same as laser-cut, but I can do vinyl-cutting
and then acid cream etch - but the detail's relatively coarse on small
designs, and they are very much 'one-use-only'...

Knowing that the consumables are available in the UK makes the whole
thing look more practical - assuming that Mastergrave have realistic
shipping costs to Ireland g - not every supplier does!

Thanks
Adrian

On 26/05/2010 22:00, Owain wrote:
On 26 May, 17:51, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Only slight fly in the ointment is that the company is in the USA, and
they're rather over-enthusiastic with the markup on their shipping costs

I think it was the late Andy Hall who used to arrange his own couriers
to collect stuff from US sellers, so avoiding the widespread
incompetence or unwillingness of US suppliers to supply outside the
land of the free and the home of the brave.

g
I've had some success in the past by asking (particularly) Stained-glass
suppliers who do know where 'Urup' is to source things and then post
them for me - but you don;t like to make a pain of yourself by doing
this too often


Question is - how to find out what these liquids are ?
I've seen CSI - where they put a few drops of 'something' into a mass
spectrometer and it tells them exactly what it is - but how does it work
in real life ? (Presumably an analytical lab report is going to cost a
few quid ?)

More than a few quid.

Thought so ...

The Materials Safety Data Sheet or their equivalent of COSHH (OSHA?)
data might prove revealing.

They weren't supplied with the liquids - is that something that
should have been supplied. Just a laser-printed label saying 'Developer'
and 'Activator'.

Actually - the problem may have gone away as Dave gave me a link to a
company in Bedford (lil' ol England g) who seem to have the same
kit in stock - and might even ship to Ireland for less than a King's
ransom...

Need to get on with the exposure unit - 100 UV leds on veroboard - what
fun !

Thanks
Adrian

Owain

On 27/05/10 08:07, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Need to get on with the exposure unit - 100 UV leds on veroboard - what
fun !

Any reason for LEDs rather than tubes?

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On 27/05/2010 08:26, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/05/10 08:07, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Need to get on with the exposure unit - 100 UV leds on veroboard - what
fun !

Any reason for LEDs rather than tubes?


Lower power, cheaper.....
and I've always liked leds g

Online folks were asking UKP100 - 300 for a simple lightbox -
seemed possible to diy it cheaper...

Seems that the trick is to get the spacing right between the leds and
the distance from leds to exposure area so that the 'beams' merge...

I guess a light etching of the underside of the glass might also help..?

Lots of examples on the web - like this one
http://www.hardwarehacker.co.uk/uvexposurebox.html

Adrian

On 27/05/2010 08:07, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Actually - the problem may have gone away as Dave gave me a link to a
company in Bedford (lil' ol England g) who seem to have the same
kit in stock - and might even ship to Ireland for less than a King's
ransom...

http://www.serigraf.ie based in Dublin came up for me while googling.
While possibly not etch-o-matic dealers, there is similar stuff on their
website.

That 'developer' _could_ be a solution of sodium hydroxide in water,
which was the usual for removing UV exposed resist on PCBs and metal
labels I've used - but then I'd not like to guess compatibility being
that your stencil also has an active chemical on it.

--
Adrian C

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 27/05/2010 08:26, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/05/10 08:07, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Need to get on with the exposure unit - 100 UV leds on veroboard - what
fun !

Any reason for LEDs rather than tubes?


Lower power, cheaper.....
and I've always liked leds g

Online folks were asking UKP100 - 300 for a simple lightbox -
seemed possible to diy it cheaper...

Seems that the trick is to get the spacing right between the leds and
the distance from leds to exposure area so that the 'beams' merge...

I guess a light etching of the underside of the glass might also help..?

Lots of examples on the web - like this one
http://www.hardwarehacker.co.uk/uvexposurebox.html

You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

--
*Pentium wise, pen and paper foolish *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
HI Folks

Bit of a long shot - but I know there's folks here who have experience
of photo-etching in the context of PCB manufacture...

I'm looking to use a photo-etching process to produce stencils which are
then used for glass etching, like a tiny screen-print process...

An exhaustive search of the net suggested that only one company sells
this kit - it's called 'Dura-Film'. Process is: - create positive image
on transparency film, use pos image to uv-expose the Dura-Film stencil,
then develop the stencil, which then 'loses' the unexposed areas and can
be used to screen-print the etching cream onto the glass.

Only slight fly in the ointment is that the company is in the USA, and
they're rather over-enthusiastic with the markup on their shipping costs
g - so I'm wondering whether the two fluids (a Developer and a Stencil
Activator) could be procured over here in Ireland - so saving on
shipping costs.

Question is - how to find out what these liquids are ?
I've seen CSI - where they put a few drops of 'something' into a mass
spectrometer and it tells them exactly what it is - but how does it work
in real life ? (Presumably an analytical lab report is going to cost a
few quid ?)

The Developer is a clear liquid with no odour - so no clues there.
The 'Activator' is used to adhere the stencil to the piece to be etched,
and stinks of acetone.... but what else...?
I guess it's possible that the same chemicals are used in the PCB or
metal label business..? - and might be available over this side of the
water..?

I have asked the supplier 'what's in the bottles' - but fully expect
them to tell me where to go!

Anybody got any experience in this area please ?

Thanks
Adrian

The press and peel stuff designed for PCBs might work on glass - it does
on at least some metals. You simply print it on a laser printer then iron
on. I assume glass would stand 200C? Of course only maybe suitable for
flat glass?

--
*Many people quit looking for work when they find a job *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27 May, 08:43, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 27/05/2010 08:26, Tim Watts wrote:

On 27/05/10 08:07, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Need to get on with the exposure unit - 100 UV leds on veroboard - what
fun !

Any reason for LEDs rather than tubes?

Lower power, cheaper.....
and I've always liked leds g

Online folks were asking UKP100 - 300 for a simple lightbox -
seemed possible to diy it cheaper...

Seems that the trick is to get the spacing right between the leds and
the distance from leds to exposure area so that the 'beams' merge...

I guess a light etching of the underside of the glass might also help..?

Thin as possible glass, its a UV block.


Lots of examples on the web - like this onehttp://www.hardwarehacker.co.uk/uvexposurebox.html

Adrian

LED UV ain`t cheaper, ususal `UV` LED is around 400nm , to go below
400nm price rockets, lifespan can also be measured on some in 100`s of
hours due to degradation.

Most UV curing things like to go lower, blacklight blue fluro is
centred on 379nm which means faster print times, LED is also hard to
get to focus evenly, UV reactive dyes are much more snsitive to power
density than MK1 eyeball.

Blacklight CFLs are cheap as chips nowadays.

Cheers
Adam

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 27/05/2010 08:26, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/05/10 08:07, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Need to get on with the exposure unit - 100 UV leds on veroboard - what
fun !
Any reason for LEDs rather than tubes?


Lower power, cheaper.....
and I've always liked leds g

Online folks were asking UKP100 - 300 for a simple lightbox -
seemed possible to diy it cheaper...

Seems that the trick is to get the spacing right between the leds and
the distance from leds to exposure area so that the 'beams' merge...

I guess a light etching of the underside of the glass might also help..?

Lots of examples on the web - like this one
http://www.hardwarehacker.co.uk/uvexposurebox.html

You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort for
this project?

Dave

On 27 May, 14:04, Adam Aglionby wrote:

LED UV ain`t cheaper

Dental UV cure sets are about 80 quid these days (Chinese eBay ones),
which is getting to be affordable.

In article ,
Dave wrote:
You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort for
this project?

I dunno. I used standard 'black light' ones. Don't think sun bed ones are
the same.

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 27 May, 14:04, Adam Aglionby wrote:

LED UV ain`t cheaper

Dental UV cure sets are about 80 quid these days (Chinese eBay ones),
which is getting to be affordable.

Is this as accurate as your claims about laminated glass?

I take it your complete silence on that subject is your abject apology?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave wrote:
You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort for
this project?

I dunno. I used standard 'black light' ones. Don't think sun bed ones are
the same.

I only asked because the UV box I borrowed many years ago had light blue
lamps and not the black light ones, nor the ones for erasing EPROMS.
When I get a round tuit I'll get back on this.

Dave

In article ,
Dave wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave wrote:
You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less
than buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort
for this project?

I dunno. I used standard 'black light' ones. Don't think sun bed ones
are the same.

I only asked because the UV box I borrowed many years ago had light blue
lamps and not the black light ones, nor the ones for erasing EPROMS.
When I get a round tuit I'll get back on this.

Since the exposure box is light sealed, I suppose any tube that gave out
UV should be fine, provided you adjusted the exposure time.

--
*I got a sweater for Christmas. I really wanted a screamer or a moaner*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27 May, 16:37, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 27 May, 14:04, Adam Aglionby wrote:

LED UV ain`t cheaper

Dental UV cure sets are about 80 quid these days (Chinese eBay ones),
which is getting to be affordable.

Dental blue iss high power 400-415nm blue, as against 475nm normal
blue, stilll high for etch resists.

Sub 400nm blue exists but getting to 2 or 3 quid an LED for 480nm.

Cheers
Adam

In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
LED UV ain`t cheaper

Dental UV cure sets are about 80 quid these days (Chinese eBay ones),
which is getting to be affordable.

But don't they use a narrow beam of concentrated UV? Rather useless for
this application.

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27 May, 23:27, Dave wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
* *Dave wrote:
You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort for
this project?

I dunno. I used standard 'black light' ones. Don't think sun bed ones are
the same.

I only asked because the UV box I borrowed many years ago had light blue
lamps and not the black light ones, nor the ones for erasing EPROMS.
When I get a round tuit I'll get back on this.

Dave

Tan tubes would work, its the UVA output that matters, tanning and
some fishtank lamps e blacklight lamps, lot of invisible UVA,
Blacklight Blue has a dark blue nickel coating called Woods Glass that
filters out the visible above 400nm.

BLB CFL easisest solution nowadays.

Cheers
Adam

On 27 May, 18:34, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 27 May, 14:04, Adam Aglionby wrote:

LED UV ain`t cheaper

Dental UV cure sets are about 80 quid these days (Chinese eBay ones),
which is getting to be affordable.

Is this as accurate as your claims about laminated glass?

Oh do **** off, Steve

Dental UV sources. They're 80 quid-ish, they cure whatever it is that
RS sell for glass bonding, and also the photo-resist kits for steel
(mail-ordered from some knife making shop in the US, I've forgotten
the name). They do teeth too.

I take it your complete silence on that subject is your abject apology?

No, that's sheer lack of time to chase it up.

Hey, if someone has finally got toughened glass to work in a laminate
that doesn't rely on a cold adhesive (i.e. it's actually strong), then
congratulations to them and that's news to me. It wasn't available
last time I wanted to buy some. mea culpa, I was out of date.

As to an apology to you, go whistle for it. I was ignorant, now I know
better, but you'll still be the same old **** in the morning.

On 28 May, 00:04, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

But don't they use a narrow beam of concentrated UV? Rather useless for
this application.

No, moderately small emitting lens on a nozzle and nothing to speak of
as any sort of concentrated beam. Back off the distance a bit, let the
spot illuminate the inch or two width I needed, and run a test strip
to get the exposure right. For etching a logo into hard steel, it
worked fine. I actually bought it for sticking glass, for which the
narrow probe is just right.

For anything bigger, I'd be looking at fluorescent tube catalogues and
dusting off the old EPROM eraser lightbox.

Andy Dingley wrote:

As to an apology to you, go whistle for it.

I knew you had no balls.

I was ignorant

There's no "was" about it, you still are.

Perhaps next time you feel inclined to mouth off you'll remember your
humilliation this time around. I certainly will, and I'll remind you of
it. I'm sure the other people you turned on will remember your petty
"know-it-all" behaviour as well.

On Thu, 27 May 2010 23:27:37 +0100, Dave wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave wrote:
You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort for
this project?

I dunno. I used standard 'black light' ones. Don't think sun bed ones are
the same.

I only asked because the UV box I borrowed many years ago had light blue
lamps and not the black light ones, nor the ones for erasing EPROMS.
When I get a round tuit I'll get back on this.

Dave

You want insect killer tubes - white appearance when off, light purple when on

On May 27, 3:52*pm, wrote:
On 26 May, *
* * *Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I was planning on making a UV-led exposure box - having seen what people
are charging for a UV-bulb and a bit of bent ali!

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/catalog...ct_Category_ID....

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/downloa...Etchomatic.pdf

When I last did PCB etching you had to have the right (short)wavelength UV
bulb (small flouorescent tube). Will LEDs be a suitable wavelength? *We (a
group at work) bought a tube that would work in a small battery powered lamp,
but the UV degraded teh plastic in next to no time. *It also needed keeping
well away from eyes.

The right tubes are obviously best, but you can use almost any UV
source. The results do vary a lot and you need to calibrate your
process.

MBQ

On May 27, 11:27*pm, Dave wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
* *Dave wrote:
You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort for
this project?

I dunno. I used standard 'black light' ones. Don't think sun bed ones are
the same.

I only asked because the UV box I borrowed many years ago had light blue
lamps and not the black light ones, nor the ones for erasing EPROMS.
When I get a round tuit I'll get back on this.

EEPROM are not the "correct" tubes.

You can buy the correct ones from RS or Mega as replacements for the
ones in commercial exposure boxes. Add a suitable ballast, etc., and
the jobs a good un.

MBQ

On 28 May, 12:49, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On May 27, 3:52*pm, wrote:

On 26 May, *
* * *Adrian Brentnall wrote:

I was planning on making a UV-led exposure box - having seen what people
are charging for a UV-bulb and a bit of bent ali!

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/catalog...ct_Category_ID...

http://www.mastergrave.co.uk/downloa...Etchomatic.pdf

When I last did PCB etching you had to have the right (short)wavelength UV
bulb (small flouorescent tube). Will LEDs be a suitable wavelength? *We (a
group at work) bought a tube that would work in a small battery powered lamp,
but the UV degraded teh plastic in next to no time. *It also needed keeping
well away from eyes.

The right tubes are obviously best, but you can use almost any UV
source. The results do vary a lot and you need to calibrate your
process.

MBQ


BLB CFL

http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bul...-Magic-25-Watt

Used to use a pile of books and an old picture frame, thin glass is
best, picture frame glass ideal, horticultural tends to have
striations in it.

As MBQ says run small test strips, put a pile under and develop them
at different exposures.

Cheers
Adam

On 28 May, 12:52, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On May 27, 11:27*pm, Dave wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
* *Dave wrote:
You can make a tube one quite cheaply - or at least for a lot less than
buying one.

Dave, am I right in thinking that a sun bed tube is the right sort for
this project?

I dunno. I used standard 'black light' ones. Don't think sun bed ones are
the same.

I only asked because the UV box I borrowed many years ago had light blue
lamps and not the black light ones, nor the ones for erasing EPROMS.
When I get a round tuit I'll get back on this.

EEPROM are not the "correct" tubes.

You can buy the correct ones from RS or Mega as replacements for the
ones in commercial exposure boxes. Add a suitable ballast, etc., and
the jobs a good un.

MBQ

Could always use one of these, seen them in independent stores with a
CE mark

http://balkowitsch.amazonwebstore.co...B0029MZJK8.htm

Not a good idea, instant sunburn and unplesant on your eyeballs.

Cheers
Adam