Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a “well-sited” 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around
£12,500 is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their
electricity bill from it.

And you won’t just get this money for a year. You’ll get it for up to
25 years (depending on which technology you install).

It will also be index-linked – so your payments will rise every year
along with inflation. And, absolutely best of all, for those of us
still reeling from the small print of the Budget, it will be entirely
tax-free."

The policy seems very screwy, but it does make photovoltaic cells on
the roof quite an attractive idea. Anyone actually got any installed?

Martin Pentreath wrote:
Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a €œwell-sited€� 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around
£12,500 is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their
electricity bill from it.

And you wont just get this money for a year. Youll get it for up to
25 years (depending on which technology you install).

It will also be index-linked €“ so your payments will rise every year
along with inflation. And, absolutely best of all, for those of us
still reeling from the small print of the Budget, it will be entirely
tax-free."

The policy seems very screwy, but it does make photovoltaic cells on
the roof quite an attractive idea. Anyone actually got any installed?

Only a dummy one, that is used to justify selling the cheap rate
electricity stored in old truck batteries back to the grid.. ;-)

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Martin Pentreath wrote:
Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a "well-sited" 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around
£12,500 is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their
electricity bill from it.

And you won't just get this money for a year. You'll get it for up to
25 years (depending on which technology you install).

It will also be index-linked - so your payments will rise every year
along with inflation. And, absolutely best of all, for those of us
still reeling from the small print of the Budget, it will be entirely
tax-free."

The policy seems very screwy, but it does make photovoltaic cells on
the roof quite an attractive idea. Anyone actually got any installed?

Only a dummy one, that is used to justify selling the cheap rate
electricity stored in old truck batteries back to the grid.. ;-)


I'm sure its not beyond the wit of man to shovel power from the standard
rate to the subsidised generated rate proportional to either wind speed or
ambient light.

I'm wondering how quickly I can hit the market, any takers?

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Martin Pentreath wrote:
Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a "well-sited" 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around
£12,500 is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their
electricity bill from it.

And you won't just get this money for a year. You'll get it for up to
25 years (depending on which technology you install).

It will also be index-linked - so your payments will rise every year
along with inflation. And, absolutely best of all, for those of us
still reeling from the small print of the Budget, it will be entirely
tax-free."

The policy seems very screwy, but it does make photovoltaic cells on
the roof quite an attractive idea. Anyone actually got any installed?

Only a dummy one, that is used to justify selling the cheap rate
electricity stored in old truck batteries back to the grid.. ;-)


I'm sure its not beyond the wit of man to shovel power from the standard
rate to the subsidised generated rate proportional to either wind speed or
ambient light.

I'm wondering how quickly I can hit the market, any takers?



If you are going to do it do it properly.. plug into next doors mains and
put that out onto the grid.
You get more than they pay on cheap rate so a profit to share, unless
someone notices your solar panels work best at night.

Fredxx wrote:

I'm sure its not beyond the wit of man to shovel power from the standard
rate to the subsidised generated rate proportional to either wind speed or
ambient light.

I'm wondering how quickly I can hit the market, any takers?

Not quite sure how you are going to get yourself certified as an
approved installer of approved kit, both of which are essential
requirements before you will get a bean.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

I wonder if these micro-generation contracts are sufficiently well-
written to make such scams illegal.

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:13:49 -0700, Martin Pentreath wrote:

Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a €œwell-sited€� 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around £12,500
is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their electricity
bill from it.

And you wont just get this money for a year. Youll get it for up to 25
years (depending on which technology you install).

Blindingly obvious question: will such a solar panel last 25 years?

I tried running some numbers in my head - I get a net saving a year of
considerably less than their 140 quid, and that's assuming I didn't use
that money on cleaning/maintaining the panel. If that 12k panel comes
with a 25 year guarantee and maintenance contract backed up by the
government in case the company fails, it just about makes sense. Without
that, it's ********.

cheers

Jules

wrote:
I wonder if these micro-generation contracts are sufficiently well-
written to make such scams illegal.

Or even if illegal, detectable or enforceable.

It's complete NONSENSE to allow people to sell electricity at a higher
rate than they can buy it at.

Lets say I perfectly legally have - say - a photoelectric panel, a car
battery storage system and an inverter.

I charge the batteries up both from cheap rate and the solar panel. I
sell back at whatever rate it is. How can even I tell which particular
electron came from the grid, overnight, or the solar panel?

We discussed the costs of such a system here. 20Kwh of battery is about
1700 Ah of 12v batteries. About 24 70AH batteries, to be had for less
than £100 each and probably a lot less.

so lets say we charge at 3KW overnight and fully charge them, and fully
discharge them by day.

WE can full arbitrage 20 units of electricity per day, bought at around
3p and sold at lords knows how much - 12p? So that's £1.80 per diem income
or around £650 a year.

Not a bad return on maybe £1200 of batteries ...

And if the government wants to toss a further £900 at you for being so
public spirited, I guess that means someone else's tax bill will have to
rise.

Jules Richardson wrote:
On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:13:49 -0700, Martin Pentreath wrote:

Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a €œwell-sited€� 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around £12,500
is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their electricity
bill from it.

And you wont just get this money for a year. Youll get it for up to 25
years (depending on which technology you install).

Blindingly obvious question: will such a solar panel last 25 years?

I tried running some numbers in my head - I get a net saving a year of
considerably less than their 140 quid, and that's assuming I didn't use
that money on cleaning/maintaining the panel. If that 12k panel comes
with a 25 year guarantee and maintenance contract backed up by the
government in case the company fails, it just about makes sense. Without
that, it's ********.

cheers

Jules

Its all ******** anyway.

99% of all green stuff is.

And there is a great danger that when people realise this, they will
simply say its ALL ********.

The policy seems very screwy, but it does make photovoltaic cells on
the roof quite an attractive idea. Anyone actually got any installed?

Yes. 2kW peak. £9k installed.

Commissioned on January 22nd. ~250kWh since then..

FiT is effective from today, and is paid by your energy provider (in my
case E.On) so it's not the taxpayer that will give my cashback it's
other E.On customers. [Thanks chaps]

IMO rovided you have a suitably oriented roof and the cash the economic
case is compelling. That however is not a view shared the majority of
uk.d-i-y ers if you look at the archives.

Stuff to read:
Good explanation and FAQ he
http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/ and he
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/1421/Feed-in+tariff'3A+your+questions+answered/

Also an interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_Tariff

D

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I wonder if these micro-generation contracts are sufficiently well-
written to make such scams illegal.

Or even if illegal, detectable or enforceable.

It's complete NONSENSE to allow people to sell electricity at a higher
rate than they can buy it at.

Lets say I perfectly legally have - say - a photoelectric panel, a car
battery storage system and an inverter.

I charge the batteries up both from cheap rate and the solar panel. I sell
back at whatever rate it is. How can even I tell which particular electron
came from the grid, overnight, or the solar panel?

We discussed the costs of such a system here. 20Kwh of battery is about
1700 Ah of 12v batteries. About 24 70AH batteries, to be had for less than
£100 each and probably a lot less.

so lets say we charge at 3KW overnight and fully charge them, and fully
discharge them by day.

WE can full arbitrage 20 units of electricity per day, bought at around 3p
and sold at lords knows how much - 12p? So that's £1.80 per diem income
or around £650 a year.

Not a bad return on maybe £1200 of batteries ...

Have you worked out how much is wasted in charging the batteries from the
mains?
You may well find its not worth doing.

And if the government wants to toss a further £900 at you for being so
public spirited, I guess that means someone else's tax bill will have to
rise.

"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
...
Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a “well-sited” 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around
£12,500 is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their
electricity bill from it.

And you won’t just get this money for a year. You’ll get it for up to
25 years (depending on which technology you install).

It will also be index-linked – so your payments will rise every year
along with inflation. And, absolutely best of all, for those of us
still reeling from the small print of the Budget, it will be entirely
tax-free."

The policy seems very screwy, but it does make photovoltaic cells on
the roof quite an attractive idea. Anyone actually got any installed?

Those numbers sound a bit too good to be true to me.

On 1 Apr, 16:02, Vortex6 wrote:

Yes. *2kW peak. *£9k installed.

Commissioned on January 22nd. *~250kWh since then..

FiT is effective from today, and is paid by your energy provider

41.3p / kWh

So so far, that's £100. Good going.

Over a year, that's somewhere between 1500kWh (pessimistic, assuming
winter weather all year) and 9000kWh (flat out, 12 hours a day).
Achieving 1/6 of the credible maximum over the worst part of the year
is doing pretty well, mind. In cash terms, that's somewhere £600 /
year to £3700. As interest rates are minimal and everyone on uk.d-i-y
except me is rich, let's amortise that at 0%. So a basic payback break-
even is between 15 and 2 1/2 years. With some interest taken into
account, that's between about 25 and 3 years. System lifetime is
probably going to survive something like that period (although my last
roof didn't).

Besides which, there is some extra fluffy carbon reduction. Which is
nice.

So it's not as good as investment as betting on a hung parliament, but
nor is it throwing money away. I would be interested to hear more of
the system you had installed, and also please keep us posted with your
meter readings.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 1 Apr, 16:02, Vortex6 wrote:

Yes. 2kW peak. £9k installed.

Commissioned on January 22nd. ~250kWh since then..

FiT is effective from today, and is paid by your energy provider

41.3p / kWh

So so far, that's £100. Good going.

Over a year, that's somewhere between 1500kWh (pessimistic, assuming
winter weather all year) and 9000kWh (flat out, 12 hours a day).
Achieving 1/6 of the credible maximum over the worst part of the year
is doing pretty well, mind. In cash terms, that's somewhere £600 /
year to £3700. As interest rates are minimal and everyone on uk.d-i-y
except me is rich, let's amortise that at 0%. So a basic payback break-
even is between 15 and 2 1/2 years. With some interest taken into
account, that's between about 25 and 3 years. System lifetime is
probably going to survive something like that period (although my last
roof didn't).

Besides which, there is some extra fluffy carbon reduction. Which is
nice.

So it's not as good as investment as betting on a hung parliament, but
nor is it throwing money away. I would be interested to hear more of
the system you had installed, and also please keep us posted with your
meter readings.

It's not £100 so far because FiT starts today! Good practice though.

Also don't forget every kWh you generate is one you don't pay for so that's
an extra 10p per unit (I have confirmed my meter goes backwards when in
surplus...at least until a "smart" one is forced on us)

It's reckoned a reasonably sited 2kw array will deliver ~1600kWh annually so
I have been impressed at attaining 250kWh in 9 Jan/Feb/March weeks....but
the numbers are correct cos it's metered on the "official" meter (and
confirmed on a less official one)

Since you're interested... some pics here, and click the .pdf for logged
data so far (just updated). http://home.btconnect.com/vortex/pv/

FYI roof pitch is about 30 degrees, facing ~ 160 or 20 degrees East of
South.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

WE can full arbitrage 20 units of electricity per day, bought at around
3p and sold at lords knows how much - 12p? So that's £1.80 per diem income
or around £650 a year.

Not a bad return on maybe £1200 of batteries ...

Factor in battery death at approx five years even for deep discharge
ones.

On Apr 2, 8:09 am, "Vortex5"
wrote:

It's reckoned a reasonably sited 2kw array will deliver ~1600kWh annually so
I have been impressed at attaining 250kWh in 9 Jan/Feb/March weeks

So it's generating 2kw for about 2 hours per day.

FYI roof pitch is about 30 degrees, facing ~ 160 or 20 degrees East of
South.

Would it be worth having a mechanism to track the sun all day? A motor
to do that would not use much power.
Or a few mirrors.

Matty F wrote:

Would it be worth having a mechanism to track the sun all day? A motor
to do that would not use much power.
Or a few mirrors.

Have you seen the size of it? If you made that lot steerable the wind
would have it next door's garden within a few days!

On Apr 2, 8:00 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
Matty F wrote:
Would it be worth having a mechanism to track the sun all day? A motor
to do that would not use much power.
Or a few mirrors.

Have you seen the size of it? If you made that lot steerable the wind
would have it next door's garden within a few days!

Not if I mount it on an old tram on a curved track!

On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:41:12 -0700, Matty F wrote:

On Apr 2, 8:00 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
Matty F wrote:
Would it be worth having a mechanism to track the sun all day? A
motor to do that would not use much power.
Or a few mirrors.

Have you seen the size of it? If you made that lot steerable the wind
would have it next door's garden within a few days!

Not if I mount it on an old tram on a curved track!

You're just looking for an excuse to have a tramway in your back garden,
aren't you?

Tracking makes a huge difference (c.40%) because it maintains a
perpendicular angle to the sun, sunrise to sunset subject to
obstructions obviously.

Hold a piece of paper in front of you.
- Turn it so it is perpendicular to your view - that presents the
maximum area.
- Tilt the piece of paper to 45-degrees - that presents a far smaller
area.

No point squeezing 2-3% higher efficiency out of panel technology when
you can achieve far more by tracking.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Andy Burns
saying something like:

Matty F wrote:

Would it be worth having a mechanism to track the sun all day? A motor
to do that would not use much power.
Or a few mirrors.

Have you seen the size of it? If you made that lot steerable the wind
would have it next door's garden within a few days!

However, a steerable mirror in the back garden would do the job - need
to be a bloodly long garden, though.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

However, a steerable mirror in the back garden would do the job - need
to be a bloodly long garden, though.

I think something similar has been done for an experimental power station in
a desert somewhere. A huge array of relatively small mirrors with fancy
computer control steering them so that they all focused the sun onto a heat
exchanger to generate steam.

--
Mike Clarke

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mike Clarke
saying something like:

I think something similar has been done for an experimental power station in
a desert somewhere. A huge array of relatively small mirrors with fancy
computer control steering them so that they all focused the sun onto a heat
exchanger to generate steam.

I think that's the Spanish one - although the technique's used in other
installations. Iirc, it's heating sodium.

"Martin Pentreath" wrote in message
...
Anyone else notice this article in last Saturday's FT?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/143af718-3...44feabdc0.html

Here's the money bit:
"Overall, says the Department of Energy and Climate Change, anyone
installing a “well-sited” 2.5kW solar panel at a cost of around
£12,500 is likely to earn £900 and get around £140 a year off their
electricity bill from it.

And you won’t just get this money for a year. You’ll get it for up to
25 years (depending on which technology you install).

It will also be index-linked – so your payments will rise every year
along with inflation. And, absolutely best of all, for those of us
still reeling from the small print of the Budget, it will be entirely
tax-free."

The policy seems very screwy, but it does make photovoltaic cells on
the roof quite an attractive idea. Anyone actually got any installed?

*****

As posted in previous threads, the main concern should be the length of time
that you are relying on successive governments to keep throwing money away
to promote 'green agendas'.
25 years is a LONG time in politics.
Even enough time for a new generation of nuclear reactors to remove the need
for alternative energy sources.
This would bugger up not just your own little domestic scheme but also the
cost projections for a lot of wind farms.
Who knows, someone might even discover new gas and oil reserves.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:39:37 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

However, a steerable mirror in the back garden would do the job - need
to be a bloodly long garden, though.

I think something similar has been done for an experimental power
station in a desert somewhere. A huge array of relatively small mirrors
with fancy computer control steering them so that they all focused the
sun onto a heat exchanger to generate steam.

I read about such a thing waaay back in the 80s, but I don't recall where
it was located now. Certainly not new technology or anything, anyway. The
fact that they're not everywhere 20-odd years later suggests that there
might be issues with that type of setup.

Jules Richardson wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:39:37 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

However, a steerable mirror in the back garden would do the job - need
to be a bloodly long garden, though.
I think something similar has been done for an experimental power
station in a desert somewhere. A huge array of relatively small mirrors
with fancy computer control steering them so that they all focused the
sun onto a heat exchanger to generate steam.

I read about such a thing waaay back in the 80s, but I don't recall where
it was located now. Certainly not new technology or anything, anyway. The
fact that they're not everywhere 20-odd years later suggests that there
might be issues with that type of setup.



Colrado or the Mojave. Google solar boiler.