Hi all,

I need to install my in-laws cooker when they move to their new house.
As I don't have any 10mm^2 T&E lying around I wondered if there was
any regulation preventing me using 10mm^2 stranded singles in conduit?
I tend to think that this would be a nicer installation ... but am
worried if there are any legal implications with this.

Cheers,
Mark

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "
saying something like:

I need to install my in-laws cooker when they move to their new house.
As I don't have any 10mm^2 T&E lying around I wondered if there was
any regulation preventing me using 10mm^2 stranded singles in conduit?
I tend to think that this would be a nicer installation ... but am
worried if there are any legal implications with this.

10mm? Must be a helluva cooker.

On 4 Jan, 12:24, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "
saying something like:

I need to install my in-laws cooker when they move to their new house.
As I don't have any 10mm^2 T&E lying around I wondered if there was
any regulation preventing me using 10mm^2 stranded singles in conduit?
I tend to think that this would be a nicer installation ... but am
worried if there are any legal implications with this.

10mm? Must be a helluva cooker.

10mm sq. I'm kind of thinking worse case here as I've not seen the
cooker yet. Of course if the cooker does actually require 10mm sq. and
the rest of the installation isn't .. then I'll be walking away pretty
rapidly

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "
saying something like:

10mm? Must be a helluva cooker.

10mm sq. I'm kind of thinking worse case here as I've not seen the
cooker yet. Of course if the cooker does actually require 10mm sq. and
the rest of the installation isn't .. then I'll be walking away pretty
rapidly

As Tim said, 6mil will be fine.

In article ,
" writes:
Hi all,

I need to install my in-laws cooker when they move to their new house.
As I don't have any 10mm^2 T&E lying around I wondered if there was
any regulation preventing me using 10mm^2 stranded singles in conduit?
I tend to think that this would be a nicer installation ... but am
worried if there are any legal implications with this.

That's perfectly acceptable providing you use the proper materials.
Check the current rating for whatever installation method you're
using. Note that you can't parallel up thinner conductors to make
up 10mm - you need to use the right sized singles.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 4 Jan, 12:30, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * " writes:

Hi all,

I need to install my in-laws cooker when they move to their new house.
As I don't have any 10mm^2 T&E lying around I wondered if there was
any regulation preventing me using 10mm^2 stranded singles in conduit?
I tend to think that this would be a nicer installation ... but am
worried if there are any legal implications with this.

That's perfectly acceptable providing you use the proper materials.
Check the current rating for whatever installation method you're
using. Note that you can't parallel up thinner conductors to make
up 10mm - you need to use the right sized singles.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Great .. .many thanks. I didn't even consider using multiple thinner
conductors .... I must be losing my touch

Turns out the only cable I have available is red & black 8AWG ... so I
think that I may just order some cable off ebay and save any future
hassle!

wibbled on Monday 04 January 2010 12:05

Hi all,

I need to install my in-laws cooker when they move to their new house.
As I don't have any 10mm^2 T&E lying around I wondered if there was
any regulation preventing me using 10mm^2 stranded singles in conduit?
I tend to think that this would be a nicer installation ... but am
worried if there are any legal implications with this.

Cheers,
Mark

It needs to be in continuous conduit until it's junctioned back to T+E, or
reaches the CU.

Are you sure you need 10mm2? *Very big* cooker? Or conduit in loads of
insulation? I'm doing mine in 6mm2 on a 32A MCB which is a fairly normal
setup. You are allowed to factor in diversity (ie it's not necessary to
total up every ring, grill and oven and call that the design load, because
even if you use everything, thermostats will start switching elements in and
out anyway.

From the IEE OnSite Guide (17th) Appendix 1 (not verbatim)

Cooker circuits: For cookers in residences, allow

10A + (30% of the max full load of cooking appliance in excess of 10A) +
(another 5A if the cooker switch contains a 13A socket).


Without a 13A socket that buys you:

F = full load amperes

Design current = 32 = 10 + 0.3x(F-10) =
(32-10)/0.3 = F-10 =
F = (32-10)/0.3 + 10 =

F = 83.3 A or 19kW cooker as stated max full load

-----

With 13A socket,

32 = 10 + 5 + 0.3x(F-10) =
(32-10-5)/0.3 = F-10 =
F = (32-10-5)/0.3 + 10 =

F = 66.7A or 15kW


HTH

Tim

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

On 4 Jan, 12:56, Tim W wrote:

* wibbled on Monday 04 January 2010 12:05

Hi all,

I need to install my in-laws cooker when they move to their new house.
As I don't have any 10mm^2 T&E lying around I wondered if there was
any regulation preventing me using 10mm^2 stranded singles in conduit?
I tend to think that this would be a nicer installation ... but am
worried if there are any legal implications with this.

Cheers,
Mark

It needs to be in continuous conduit until it's junctioned back to T+E, or
reaches the CU.

Are you sure you need 10mm2? *Very big* cooker? Or conduit in loads of
insulation? I'm doing mine in 6mm2 on a 32A MCB which is a fairly normal
setup. You are allowed to factor in diversity (ie it's not necessary to
total up every ring, grill and oven and call that the design load, because
even if you use everything, thermostats will start switching elements in and
out anyway.

From the IEE OnSite Guide (17th) Appendix 1 (not verbatim)

Cooker circuits: For cookers in residences, allow

10A + (30% of the max full load of cooking appliance in excess of 10A) +
(another 5A if the cooker switch contains a 13A socket).

Without a 13A socket that buys you:

F = full load amperes

Design current = 32 = 10 + 0.3x(F-10) =
(32-10)/0.3 = F-10 =
F = (32-10)/0.3 + 10 =

F = 83.3 A or 19kW cooker as stated max full load

-----

With 13A socket,

32 = 10 + 5 + 0.3x(F-10) =
(32-10-5)/0.3 = F-10 =
F = (32-10-5)/0.3 + 10 =

F = 66.7A or 15kW

HTH

Tim

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Thanks Tim,

I chose 10mm2 as worst case as I have no idea what they have at the
moment. From the calculations though I think that this way of an
overkill and 6mm2 does sound much more sensible.

Many thanks!
Mark

wibbled on Monday 04 January 2010 13:07


Thanks Tim,

I chose 10mm2 as worst case as I have no idea what they have at the
moment. From the calculations though I think that this way of an
overkill and 6mm2 does sound much more sensible.

Many thanks!
Mark

I've just checked the Range Master Elan 110 wide all electric range cooker:


http://www.rangemaster.co.uk/SiteIma...%20Ceramic.pdf

Max total full load is stated as 15.9kW so I's say you are on safe ground
with a 32A circuit... And that's a bloody big cooker by domestic standards.
If you want to cut some slack, leave the optional 13A socket in the cooker
switch out. I think it would be hard to find a 19kW domestic cooker, though
I wait to be proved wrong!

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

On 4 Jan, 13:26, Tim W wrote:

* wibbled on Monday 04 January 2010 13:07

Thanks Tim,

I chose 10mm2 as worst case as I have no idea what they have at the
moment. From the calculations though I think that this way of an
overkill and 6mm2 does sound much more sensible.

Many thanks!
Mark

I've just checked the Range Master Elan 110 wide all electric range cooker:

http://www.rangemaster.co.uk/SiteIma...ia/Elan%20110%...

Max total full load is stated as 15.9kW so I's say you are on safe ground
with a 32A circuit... And that's a bloody big cooker by domestic standards.
If you want to cut some slack, leave the optional 13A socket in the cooker
switch out. I think it would be hard to find a 19kW domestic cooker, though
I wait to be proved wrong!

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Thanks Tim!

Given their available space and budget I would expect a pretty
standard single oven jobbie - certainly nothing this large.

I've ordered a couple of metres of 6mm2 T&E off ebay (didn't realise
it was so cheap having only checked prices in the sheds before now).

Thanks again,
Mark

wibbled on Monday 04 January 2010 13:45

On 4 Jan, 13:26, Tim W wrote:

wibbled on Monday 04 January 2010 13:07

Thanks Tim,

I chose 10mm2 as worst case as I have no idea what they have at the
moment. From the calculations though I think that this way of an
overkill and 6mm2 does sound much more sensible.

Many thanks!
Mark

I've just checked the Range Master Elan 110 wide all electric range
cooker:

http://www.rangemaster.co.uk/SiteIma...ia/Elan%20110%...

Max total full load is stated as 15.9kW so I's say you are on safe ground
with a 32A circuit... And that's a bloody big cooker by domestic
standards. If you want to cut some slack, leave the optional 13A socket
in the cooker switch out. I think it would be hard to find a 19kW
domestic cooker, though I wait to be proved wrong!

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Thanks Tim!

Given their available space and budget I would expect a pretty
standard single oven jobbie - certainly nothing this large.

I've ordered a couple of metres of 6mm2 T&E off ebay (didn't realise
it was so cheap having only checked prices in the sheds before now).

Thanks again,
Mark

Another way to look at it is 15kW is more or less double the max sustained
load that a 32A circuit can handle.

A type B MCB (and its equivalent fuses) will take around 1/2 hour to trip on
an overload of double the rated current. This is safe as the cable takes
time to heat up to exceed its operating temperature too - in fact the fuse
curves are designed with this in mind.

So even if someone turned every element on from stone cold at once, there
will only be an interval of typically less than that before thermostats
start cycling the oven elements.

If you dump 15kW into a kitchen for any length of time you are going to get
very warm indeed. I can heat most of my ground floor with about 8kW when
it's -3C outside and half my roof insulation is missing.



--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

wibbled on Monday 04 January 2010 13:45



Thanks Tim!

Given their available space and budget I would expect a pretty
standard single oven jobbie - certainly nothing this large.

I've ordered a couple of metres of 6mm2 T&E off ebay (didn't realise
it was so cheap having only checked prices in the sheds before now).

Thanks again,
Mark

Wait around for a bit and see if anyone (eg Adam, Andrew Gabriel or John
Rumm to name a non exclusive few) spot anything that's cobblers with what
I've written, but I'm fairly confident of the calcs I gave you.

It's not hard stuff, but I was feeding my son while typing that lot(!)

Double check it yourself - the statement re diversity I typed from the
OnSite is accurate though... Assume V=230V for wattage calcs (even if you
have 240V).

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

As stated 6mm is most likely fine.

The French do an interesting method whereby singles are in flexible
conduit and just uncoiled into the channel you made (in zone I
presume).

That potentially makes for easier replacement in future in terms of
time & disruption (chop open a corner, drag out cable) compared to
oval (sheathed cables often jam) & rigid conduit (better with studded
walls). It seems the French do not require the conduit to be fixed
first & cables drawn in later (like BS7671). The flexible conduit just
enters backboxes rather than using conduit fittings AFAIK.

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 06:28:29 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

As stated 6mm is most likely fine.

The French do an interesting method whereby singles are in flexible
conduit and just uncoiled into the channel you made (in zone I
presume).

That potentially makes for easier replacement in future in terms of
time & disruption (chop open a corner, drag out cable) compared to
oval (sheathed cables often jam) & rigid conduit (better with studded
walls). It seems the French do not require the conduit to be fixed
first & cables drawn in later (like BS7671). The flexible conduit just
enters backboxes rather than using conduit fittings AFAIK.

Yes, but at least some of their flexible conduit is ridged internally and
makes pulling a new core in at a later date problematic. As well as that
their crappy backboxes tend to fall out of the wall when you pull a plug
out!

SteveW

On Jan 4, 4:42*pm, Steve Walker wrote:
Yes, but at least some of their flexible conduit is ridged internally and
makes pulling a new core in at a later date problematic.

Fishing tape would be necessary... wishfulfishing tape.

As well as that their crappy backboxes tend to fall out of the
wall when you pull a plug out!

Ah, that's the built in automatic extension cable facility :-)

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:22:10 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

On Jan 4, 4:42*pm, Steve Walker wrote:
Yes, but at least some of their flexible conduit is ridged internally and
makes pulling a new core in at a later date problematic.

Fishing tape would be necessary... wishfulfishing tape.

As well as that their crappy backboxes tend to fall out of the
wall when you pull a plug out!

Ah, that's the built in automatic extension cable facility :-)

I like it

My parents have a holiday home over there and when we borrowed it, they
carefully made socket covers, so that our youngest wouldn't be able to
stick his finger or anything else into the unshuttered sockets and he
promptly pulled one right off the wall, exposing the live wiring and
terminals

As well as that, there's the really poor double sockets where each is
hardwired in reverse to the other, so you can't guarantee which is live and
which is neutral when you plug the (admittedly rarer these days) equipment
for which this matters in.

SteveW

In article ,
Steve Walker writes:

As well as that, there's the really poor double sockets where each is
hardwired in reverse to the other, so you can't guarantee which is live and
which is neutral when you plug the (admittedly rarer these days) equipment
for which this matters in.

French sockets aren't polarised. Whilst you can't reverse an earthed
plug, it's not defined which connection is live and which is neutral.
Every double socket and 2-way adaptor I've seen has them hardwired
the opposite way around. In some areas of France, there is no neutral
(neither main conductor is near earth potential).

Actually in much of Europe the socket outlets aren't polarised.
It's just with the French/Belgium ones, they look like they are
because the plug can't be reversed, but actually they aren't.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]