I am trying to understand how the heating circuit at my daughter's place
works (without going to look)

She claims:

"When I checked what each of the meters was for this is what npower said:

I can confirm that the day rate on your meter is billed between 7.30 am and
12.30 pm. The night rate is billed between 12.30 pm, and 7.30am.
The heat boost, which is register 3 on your meter, is billed between 8.00 am
and 10.00am.
The heat units on register 4, are billed between 2.pm and 7.00pm, and the
heat units on register 5, are billed between 8pm and 10.00pm."


I m confused as to what switches the heaters on - there are 3 heater outlet
points.

Do you think she will have the ability to control the time that the circuit
is live so she can reduce the higher tariff boost times? The reply from
N-Power seems to imply a complex metering arrangement.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:46:58 +0100 someone who may be "John"
wrote this:-

I m confused as to what switches the heaters on - there are 3 heater outlet
points.

Get her to send a picture of the meter, or the make and model.

However, it sounds like the meter has a time clock built in with
terminals for 24 hour and off-peak circuits. For whatever reasons
the units used at the different off-peak times are recorded in
different registers and to get a total figure for these it is
necessary to add up these registers. The off-peak units may or may
not all be at the same rate.






--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:46:58 +0100, John wrote:
I m confused as to what switches the heaters on - there are 3 heater outlet
points.

Here[1] they send a signal down the line from the power station (200Hz I
think the engineer once said) to control a set of honking great relays and
switch individual circuits (we've got the dryer on one circuit, the hot
water heater on another, and the electric baseboards on a third; there's
an option for electric underfloor heating too, but we don't have that).

Things go on and off according to power station load (the station shuts
things off at peak demand periods so they don't have to buy in from
adjacent stations) - for the heaters, the thermostats are there to control
how much they're on when they're receiving power. The metering's all done
by a separate meter, slaved off the primary one (so the primary shows
total use, the slave shows cheap-rate use, and they figure out charges
accordingly)

Sounds like your daughter might have a similar setup...

[1] here being the US, but the situation sounds very similar.

cheers

Jules

On Oct 20, 3:46*pm, "John" wrote:
I can confirm that the day rate on your meter is billed between 7.30 am and
12.30 pm. *The night rate is billed between 12.30 pm, and 7.30am.

Standard E7 times (Day & Night). Typically 12p Day and 5p Night inc
VAT.

The heat boost
- register 3... 8.00am and 10.00am.
- register 4... 2pm and 7.00pm
- register 5... 8pm and 10.00pm."

Sounds like E10, but too many hours :-)

Could be an unusual hybrid...

If the heaters are Storage-Heater AND Panel-Heater...
Overnight (12:30-7:30)
- bulk charge of storage heaters
- eg, 5p/kWhr with multiple heaters taking 75kWhr
Boost rate at reg3-4-5
- panel heaters operate
- eg, 7p/kWhr with multiple panel heaters taking just 5kWhr for each
of the periods

If the heaters are Storage-Heater only...
Overnight (12:30-7:30)
- bulk charge of storage heaters
- eg, 5p/kWhr with multiple heaters taking 75kWhr
Boost rate at reg3-4-5
- recharge of storage heaters
- eg, 7p/kWhr with multiple heaters taking 15kWhr for each of the
periods

There may be radio control or timer control of the boost period.
Whether boost occurs may be via a switch on the heater or thermostat.

DNO timeswitch does not have a dial, it is a 6"x6"x6" black box
containing a radio receiver & contactor.

Do you think she will have the ability to control the time that the circuit
is live so she can reduce the higher tariff boost times? The reply from
N-Power seems to imply a complex metering arrangement.

It sounds unusual, typically you have E7 or E10 - not a hybrid.
I take it this is an electric storage heater and not electric wet
central heating?

You really need to know what type of heaters they are a) night storage
only or b) night storage with daytime panel heater, how the boost heat
is controlled re a thermostat somewhere, local to heater thermostat,
timer, boost button, wall mounted occupancy PIR frost/background/
comfort stat (Dimplex PX9700) and so on. You also need to get a
picture of the meter cupboard if possible.

What IS important is that heating is on a discount rate.
I say that because some flats/houses had electric storage heaters or
water thermal store fitted without an E7 or E10 rate. Some had no wet
thermal store and just ran a 9kW electric boiler on peak rate, on
demand, which resulted in some eye-watering bills.

If the place is well insulated electric isn't so bad - 5p/unit at 100%
efficiency compared to 3.5p/unit for gas plus maintenance of £100/yr
plus replacement depreciation of £350/yr. If the place is not well
insulated (CWI, Loft, ideally new build 2006) then things can be
ridiculous.

Running a 24kWhr storage heater (largest 3.3kW unit) for 120 days at
100% charge costs £140. Realise you are unlikely to require 100%
charge for Nov+Dec+Jan+Feb, typically 30% less.

Just as a baseline on "what you can expect" re running costs. How warm
you are depends on how well insulated and how well oversized /
correctly-sized / undersized the heaters are.

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
On Oct 20, 3:46 pm, "John" wrote:
I can confirm that the day rate on your meter is billed between 7.30 am
and
12.30 pm. The night rate is billed between 12.30 pm, and 7.30am.

Standard E7 times (Day & Night). Typically 12p Day and 5p Night inc
VAT.

The heat boost
- register 3... 8.00am and 10.00am.
- register 4... 2pm and 7.00pm
- register 5... 8pm and 10.00pm."

Sounds like E10, but too many hours :-)

Could be an unusual hybrid...

If the heaters are Storage-Heater AND Panel-Heater...
Overnight (12:30-7:30)
- bulk charge of storage heaters
- eg, 5p/kWhr with multiple heaters taking 75kWhr
Boost rate at reg3-4-5
- panel heaters operate
- eg, 7p/kWhr with multiple panel heaters taking just 5kWhr for each
of the periods

If the heaters are Storage-Heater only...
Overnight (12:30-7:30)
- bulk charge of storage heaters
- eg, 5p/kWhr with multiple heaters taking 75kWhr
Boost rate at reg3-4-5
- recharge of storage heaters
- eg, 7p/kWhr with multiple heaters taking 15kWhr for each of the
periods

There may be radio control or timer control of the boost period.
Whether boost occurs may be via a switch on the heater or thermostat.

DNO timeswitch does not have a dial, it is a 6"x6"x6" black box
containing a radio receiver & contactor.

Do you think she will have the ability to control the time that the
circuit
is live so she can reduce the higher tariff boost times? The reply from
N-Power seems to imply a complex metering arrangement.

It sounds unusual, typically you have E7 or E10 - not a hybrid.
I take it this is an electric storage heater and not electric wet
central heating?

You really need to know what type of heaters they are a) night storage
only or b) night storage with daytime panel heater, how the boost heat
is controlled re a thermostat somewhere, local to heater thermostat,
timer, boost button, wall mounted occupancy PIR frost/background/
comfort stat (Dimplex PX9700) and so on. You also need to get a
picture of the meter cupboard if possible.

What IS important is that heating is on a discount rate.
I say that because some flats/houses had electric storage heaters or
water thermal store fitted without an E7 or E10 rate. Some had no wet
thermal store and just ran a 9kW electric boiler on peak rate, on
demand, which resulted in some eye-watering bills.

If the place is well insulated electric isn't so bad - 5p/unit at 100%
efficiency compared to 3.5p/unit for gas plus maintenance of £100/yr
plus replacement depreciation of £350/yr. If the place is not well
insulated (CWI, Loft, ideally new build 2006) then things can be
ridiculous.

Running a 24kWhr storage heater (largest 3.3kW unit) for 120 days at
100% charge costs £140. Realise you are unlikely to require 100%
charge for Nov+Dec+Jan+Feb, typically 30% less.

Just as a baseline on "what you can expect" re running costs. How warm
you are depends on how well insulated and how well oversized /
correctly-sized / undersized the heaters are.

The house has 3 storage heaters (lounge is a 3.4Kw job Heatstore HSXAF24N)
and two bedroom non storage heaters.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:46:58 +0100, John wrote:

I am trying to understand how the heating circuit at my daughter's place
works (without going to look)

She claims:

"When I checked what each of the meters was for this is what npower said:

I can confirm that the day rate on your meter is billed between 7.30 am and
12.30 pm. The night rate is billed between 12.30 pm, and 7.30am.

um, should't that be 12.30 am? (0030). It'd give 17h on night rate as
quoted.

The heat boost, which is register 3 on your meter, is billed between 8.00 am
and 10.00am.
The heat units on register 4, are billed between 2.pm and 7.00pm, and the
heat units on register 5, are billed between 8pm and 10.00pm."

I m confused as to what switches the heaters on - there are 3 heater outlet
points.

Do you think she will have the ability to control the time that the circuit
is live so she can reduce the higher tariff boost times? The reply from
N-Power seems to imply a complex metering arrangement.


--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

"PeterC" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:46:58 +0100, John wrote:

I am trying to understand how the heating circuit at my daughter's place
works (without going to look)

She claims:

"When I checked what each of the meters was for this is what npower said:

I can confirm that the day rate on your meter is billed between 7.30 am
and
12.30 pm. The night rate is billed between 12.30 pm, and 7.30am.

um, should't that be 12.30 am? (0030). It'd give 17h on night rate as
quoted.

The heat boost, which is register 3 on your meter, is billed between 8.00
am
and 10.00am.
The heat units on register 4, are billed between 2.pm and 7.00pm, and the
heat units on register 5, are billed between 8pm and 10.00pm."

I m confused as to what switches the heaters on - there are 3 heater
outlet
points.

Do you think she will have the ability to control the time that the
circuit
is live so she can reduce the higher tariff boost times? The reply from
N-Power seems to imply a complex metering arrangement.


--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

Or 00:30