NT wrote:
On Oct 15, 3:39 pm, robgraham wrote:
I've wired up a friend's garage and I would like to leave him a
straightforward drawing of how it was done so that he has a record for
any changes.

What would be the simplest PC package to do this on ?

Rob


What no-ones mentioned yet is that whatever format its in needs to be
usable in 50 years time. Probably almost none of today's data formats
will be in use then, or will have been for a couple of decades.

The one with the best chance of staying in use is plain text, .txt.
And simple circuits in ascii are easy to do. But personally I'd be
sure to print a copy too. Perhaps even stick it somewhere
permanentishly in the garage.


DXF format is virtually ASCII for vectors.
PLT format is even cruder for line drawings.
EPS is similar, and has bitmap capabilities. All of these are yonks old
and still going strong.



NT

Bill Wright wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Oh - Coral Draw costs the thick end of 400 quid.
Does it buggery. You can get Corel 4 for almost nothing, and it's fine. No
need to get a later version because by the time 4 came out all the basics
were sorted.What came after was mostly luxuries.


And pirate 8,10,12 and 14 are readily available.
As are old copies of 8 upwards on Ebay.

Heh heh - reminds me of making up some logos using a very basic DTP
package. Nothing like improvising.

People sometimes send me photographs embedded in a Word doc, because 'I
don't know how to send pictures but I know how to put them into a Word
document and I know how to send them.' It beats me. If they can send .docs
why can't they send .jpgs?

Becaue the workplace sent them on a word course, but not on an outlook
express course.


This friend I have down south has just bought a new camera and she keeps
sending me examples of her photographic brilliance. Trouble is the camera
has massive resolution and the pics (which have no artistic or other value
and are mostly out of focus and/or have camera shake) are 4.5MB, and she
sends five at a time. Most of them are of her bloody cats as well.


wait till she gets a video.

Bill

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:59:08 +0100, wrote:

Don't schools teach engineering/technical drawing/sketching these
days?

They never did except for people going towards technical careers did
they?

Well I took Technical Drawing at CSE (got Grade 1 but that wasn't
difficult it being a CSE). I think all the boys took it whilst the
girls did cookery. I also did woodwork, though I miss not being
taught basic metal bashing (welding brazing etc) and some basic
cookery would have been good as well but at they time you weren't
given the choice. Boys did the techy stuff, girls the domestic and
you and your parents had to really fight if you didn't want to fit
into that.

Not like that now though, it all comes under "Design & Technology". I
can't decide if that is spreading things too thin or not so you don't
get enough of anything or if the broader base of knowledge is better.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
...
In uk.d-i-y, Clive George wrote:
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
. ..

People sometimes send me photographs embedded in a Word doc, because 'I
don't know how to send pictures but I know how to put them into a Word
document and I know how to send them.' It beats me. If they can send
.docs
why can't they send .jpgs?

For screenshots, embedded into a word doc works quite well if you're not
competent enough to generate a png. Word compresses them enough to make
them
not painful, and people can cope with "prt sc, then paste into a new word
document" if you want eg a picture of an error screen.

That must be some version of Word than I've never used. IME Word
*expands* images (as if jpg - bmp), and in the most recent version I've
used (2002) the tools that are supposed to compress them are well-hidden
and non-functional.

Word 2003, and I think the previous version too. Screenshot pasted in
without doing anything clever - 236,700 bytes in PNG, 254,976 in .doc.

Clive George wrote:


Word 2003, and I think the previous version too. Screenshot pasted in
without doing anything clever - 236,700 bytes in PNG, 254,976 in .doc.


Memory may be faulty, but IIRC Word uses PNG as the internal format of
bitmaps. Even when Word would not actually accept PNGs themselves. So an
embedded PNG tends to have its size reflected in the total document size
but a BMP if often compressed to some extent.

Also, nasty problem was always getting images out of Word. Copy and
paste produced some bizarre effects. Then I read of the idea of saving
the Word document as HTML - and all the images end up in the underlying
folder.

--
Rod

On Oct 17, 9:21*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Oct 15, 3:39 pm, robgraham wrote:
I've wired up a friend's garage *and I would like to leave him a
straightforward drawing of how it was done so that he has a record for
any changes.

What would be the simplest PC package to do this on ?

Rob

What no-ones mentioned yet is that whatever format its in needs to be
usable in 50 years time. Probably almost none of today's data formats
will be in use then, or will have been for a couple of decades.

The one with the best chance of staying in use is plain text, .txt.
And simple circuits in ascii are easy to do. But personally I'd be
sure to print a copy too. Perhaps even stick it somewhere
permanentishly in the garage.

DXF format is virtually ASCII for vectors.
PLT format is even cruder for line drawings.
EPS is similar, and has bitmap capabilities. All of these are yonks old
and still going strong.

NT

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today
that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much
computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a
good double that long.


NT

NT wrote:
On Oct 17, 9:21 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Oct 15, 3:39 pm, robgraham wrote:
I've wired up a friend's garage and I would like to leave him a
straightforward drawing of how it was done so that he has a record for
any changes.
What would be the simplest PC package to do this on ?
Rob
What no-ones mentioned yet is that whatever format its in needs to be
usable in 50 years time. Probably almost none of today's data formats
will be in use then, or will have been for a couple of decades.
The one with the best chance of staying in use is plain text, .txt.
And simple circuits in ascii are easy to do. But personally I'd be
sure to print a copy too. Perhaps even stick it somewhere
permanentishly in the garage.
DXF format is virtually ASCII for vectors.
PLT format is even cruder for line drawings.
EPS is similar, and has bitmap capabilities. All of these are yonks old
and still going strong.

NT

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today
that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much
computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a
good double that long.



I don't think paper and ink existed 2000 years ago actually.

There are more documents being scanned into computers than there are
computer documents being archived onto papyrus.

Who amongst ye can still read an 8" floppy disk, txt or otherwise? By
the way .txt is a pure micro computer invention AFAICR. Text files on
other systems - ASCII text that is - had no extension, any extension you
care to mention, or any other combination

The density of information in a circuity digram cannot be conveyed in
ASCII anyway. a circuit diagram is NOT a load of letters, its is a DRAWING.

And, I can assure you, we used all the things at our disposal, dashed,
dotted, angled and variable thickness lines, to make them more easily
comprehensible.

DXF IS ascii, but ascii used to describe vectors, not alphabeticised words


Here, this is a bit of vettor graphics. You might be amused to see what
it says.

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NT

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:01:44 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Here, this is a bit of vettor graphics. You might be amused to see what
it says.

0
SECTION
2
HEADER
9
$ACADVER
1
AC1015
9
$ACADMAINTVER
70

And assuming you can extract the data from the medium on which it
stored you can, do the ASCII transaltion on each byte, print it out,
read it and plot by hand. Not so easy to do with a binary format...

--
Cheers
Dave.

NT wrote:

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today
that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much
computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a
good double that long.


Weren't most of the computers back then IBM or similar mainframes,
running EBCDIC not ASCII?

Paint it on the garage wall.

Andy

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:40:05 +0100, Andy Champ wrote:

NT wrote:

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today
that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much
computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a
good double that long.


Weren't most of the computers back then IBM or similar mainframes,
running EBCDIC not ASCII?

Paint it on the garage wall.

Andy

Take a photograph of it on film - that lasts for a while and is easily
read.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:39:14 -0700 (PDT), robgraham
wrote:

I've wired up a friend's garage and I would like to leave him a
straightforward drawing of how it was done so that he has a record for
any changes.

What would be the simplest PC package to do this on ?

Rob


MS Visio
--

blackbat /\x/\

On Oct 18, 2:40*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
NT wrote:

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today
that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much
computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a
good double that long.

Weren't most of the computers back then IBM or similar mainframes,
running EBCDIC not ASCII?

Paint it on the garage wall.

Andy


EBCDIC is fairly well known, but even basic plain text wasnt
standardised back then. Hence the ASCII standard. But I believe ASCII
was based on existing practice rather than a new completely
incompatible standard, and that there were mainly 2 trends, ebcdic
being not the only one.

As well as IBMs with EBCDIC there were all sorts of oddities. The
soviets played with trinary logic, and decimal and hexadecimal were no
strangers to computing at the hardware level. Relay logic was also
used at the budget end, leading to probably the worlds slowest ever
computer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WITCH_(computer)

There was even a series of very successful fluid based computers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer

I presume EBCDIC is still readable by some piece of software somewhere


NT

On Oct 18, 10:01*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The density of information in a circuity digram cannot be conveyed in
ASCII anyway. a circuit diagram is NOT a load of letters, its is a DRAWING.

I've never found it hard to do simple circuit diagrams in ascii art.


NT

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:07:06 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:
On Oct 18, 2:40Â*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
NT wrote:

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today
that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much
computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a
good double that long.

Weren't most of the computers back then IBM or similar mainframes,
running EBCDIC not ASCII?

Paint it on the garage wall.

Andy


EBCDIC is fairly well known, but even basic plain text wasnt
standardised back then. Hence the ASCII standard. But I believe ASCII
was based on existing practice rather than a new completely
incompatible standard, and that there were mainly 2 trends, ebcdic
being not the only one.

In the '50 and '60s (maybe even the '70s, too) the most widespread
electronic text format was the 5 bit Baudot code used by Telex and
teleprinter machines.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:19:40 GMT, pete wrote:



EBCDIC is fairly well known, but even basic plain text wasnt
standardised back then. Hence the ASCII standard. But I believe ASCII
was based on existing practice rather than a new completely
incompatible standard, and that there were mainly 2 trends, ebcdic
being not the only one.

In the '50 and '60s (maybe even the '70s, too) the most widespread
electronic text format was the 5 bit Baudot code used by Telex and
teleprinter machines.


Bzzzt,

Not sure what you mean by "Teleprinter machine". where was that used .

The American Telex system used Teletype KSR (or ASR) 33 machines which
were 7 bit (or 8 bit with parity) At one time I had a collection of
them plus Creed 3x tape printers and 7b page printer machines.

Derek

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
NT wrote:
On Oct 17, 9:21 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Oct 15, 3:39 pm, robgraham wrote:
I've wired up a friend's garage and I would like to leave him a
straightforward drawing of how it was done so that he has a record for
any changes.
What would be the simplest PC package to do this on ?
Rob
What no-ones mentioned yet is that whatever format its in needs to be
usable in 50 years time. Probably almost none of today's data formats
will be in use then, or will have been for a couple of decades.
The one with the best chance of staying in use is plain text, .txt.
And simple circuits in ascii are easy to do. But personally I'd be
sure to print a copy too. Perhaps even stick it somewhere
permanentishly in the garage.
DXF format is virtually ASCII for vectors.
PLT format is even cruder for line drawings.
EPS is similar, and has bitmap capabilities. All of these are yonks old
and still going strong.

NT

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today
that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much
computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a
good double that long.



I don't think paper and ink existed 2000 years ago actually.

There are more documents being scanned into computers than there are
computer documents being archived onto papyrus.

Who amongst ye can still read an 8" floppy disk, txt or otherwise? By the
way .txt is a pure micro computer invention AFAICR. Text files on other
systems - ASCII text that is - had no extension, any extension you care to
mention, or any other combination

The density of information in a circuity digram cannot be conveyed in
ASCII anyway. a circuit diagram is NOT a load of letters, its is a
DRAWING.

And, I can assure you, we used all the things at our disposal, dashed,
dotted, angled and variable thickness lines, to make them more easily
comprehensible.

DXF IS ascii, but ascii used to describe vectors, not alphabeticised
words


Here, this is a bit of vettor graphics. You might be amused to see what it
says.

0
SECTION
2
HEADER
9
SNIP

Very childish!
Baz

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:23:06 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:19:40 GMT, pete wrote:



EBCDIC is fairly well known, but even basic plain text wasnt
standardised back then. Hence the ASCII standard. But I believe ASCII
was based on existing practice rather than a new completely
incompatible standard, and that there were mainly 2 trends, ebcdic
being not the only one.

In the '50 and '60s (maybe even the '70s, too) the most widespread
electronic text format was the 5 bit Baudot code used by Telex and
teleprinter machines.


Bzzzt,

Not sure what you mean by "Teleprinter machine". where was that used .

The American Telex system used Teletype KSR (or ASR) 33 machines which
were 7 bit (or 8 bit with parity) At one time I had a collection of
them plus Creed 3x tape printers and 7b page printer machines.


Yes, the Teletype Corporation machines were 7 or 8 bit, but the Creed telex
machines that I've seen (the 54.5 Baud / 80 Volt types) had a 5 bit
plus start/stop bit format. Their paper tape rummages around in loft
was 5-hole plus a sprocket.