Just had a strong jolt when I turned on a double socket when at the
same time I was touching a tap in the kitchen. The tap is a combined
hot and cold one. I tried the adjacent socket and another double
socket which is also close enough to the kitchen tap to touch both but
they were fine. I then tried the probem socket again and got the same
jolt. If it's relevant I was wearing a "croc" type shoe.

My electrical tester is broken so I had to rely on an electric screw
driver tester with a neon light. This lit up when in contact with the
socket switch, so assume its a fault with the socket switch.

However, what concerns me is how can you protect yourself from this as
the jolt was fairly strong for an adult, it could be more serious for
a child.

Also, does it indicate a fault with the electrics in the house? The
kitchen is on a separate old fashioned consumer unit with wired fuses
and no RCD protection, while the rest of the ground floor is wired via
a modern consumer unit with an RCD and MCBs. The electrics had been
tested 2 or 3 years ago and as far as I am aware the metal work is
properly bonded.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Geoff

On 7 Oct, 12:09, geoffr wrote:

However, what concerns me is how can you protect yourself from this as
the jolt was fairly strong for an adult, it could be more serious for
a child.

Frequently fatal. This sort of shock (touching a good earth when
you're already at an elevated potential) is one of the few that kills
people in practice. Newsreader's daughter from a couple of years ago?
Many people put up with "that switch that always gives you a tingle"
for an incredibly long time, then get killed by it on the day they're
walking barefoot across the spilled water or similar.

You have at least two faults here, both serious enough to be "pull the
fuses and fix immediately".

Firstly your socket faceplate is live. Bad.

Secondly your socket faceplate isn't earthed, via a good low-impedance
earth path. Assuming that fault #1 arises in the nature of wear &
tear, then this should have been sufficient to send a fault current
back through that earth and pop the fuse, thus isolating(sic) the
circuit.

I'd regard #2 as serious here (#1 obviously is) because although poor
earths are endemic in old installations, it sounds here as if you have
a metal-fronted socket which I'd guess was more recent and really
should be earthed properly.

"geoffr" wrote in message
...
Just had a strong jolt when I turned on a double socket when at the
same time I was touching a tap in the kitchen. The tap is a combined
hot and cold one. I tried the adjacent socket and another double
socket which is also close enough to the kitchen tap to touch both but
they were fine. I then tried the probem socket again and got the same
jolt. If it's relevant I was wearing a "croc" type shoe.

So you got a shock straight through the chest/heart (i.e.
finger-arm-chest-arm-finger) and you went back for more???!!!

Seriously - if you have these problems with your electrics, and you don't
know what could be causing it, turn off at the CU, and get a sparky round
fast!

JW

On 7 Oct, 12:29, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 7 Oct, 12:09, geoffr wrote:


You have at least two faults here, both serious enough to be "pull the
fuses and fix immediately".

Firstly your socket faceplate is live. Bad.

Secondly your socket faceplate isn't earthed, via a good low-impedance
earth path. Assuming that fault #1 arises in the nature of wear &
tear, then this should have been sufficient to send a fault current
back through that earth and pop the fuse, thus isolating(sic) the
circuit.

I'd regard #2 as serious here (#1 obviously is) because although poor
earths are endemic in old installations, it sounds here as if you have
a metal-fronted socket which I'd guess was more recent and really
should be earthed properly.

Thanks Andy and John for your replies.

The face plate is a standard MK plastic one and its only the switch
which is lighting the
screw driver. I know these screw drivers aren't accurate but is it
possible that the short in the switch it too far aware from the earth
connector to send a fault current to trip the fuse?

Although, it's an old fashioned fuse box the actual wiring is
relatively recent and in good condition. When it was tested
a couple of years ago the earth loop impendance reading was 0.3 ohm
from one of the kitchen sockects. I have also checked the earth
connectors in the socket, in the kitchen fuse box and the connector to
the house itself and they are all tight, although I do understand that
without a proper tester you cant be sure there is not a fault
elsewhere. The kitchen sockets are connected in a ring.

As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock. Therefore doesnt this
imply that the earth wiring is OK as there would not have been a
circuit for the current to travel down if there was a problem with the
earth.

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could it
simply be a faulty socket switch?

On Oct 7, 1:35*pm, wrote:
On 7 Oct, 12:29, Andy Dingley wrote:



On 7 Oct, 12:09, geoffr wrote:

You have at least two faults here, both serious enough to be "pull the
fuses and fix immediately".

Firstly your socket faceplate is live. Bad.

Secondly your socket faceplate isn't earthed, via a good low-impedance
earth path. Assuming that fault #1 arises in the nature of wear &
tear, then this should have been sufficient to send a fault current
back through that earth and pop the fuse, thus isolating(sic) the
circuit.

I'd regard #2 as serious here (#1 obviously is) because although poor
earths are endemic in old installations, it sounds here as if you have
a metal-fronted socket which I'd guess was more recent and really
should be earthed properly.

Thanks Andy and John for your replies.

The face plate is a standard MK plastic one and its only the switch
which is lighting the
screw driver. I know these screw drivers aren't accurate but is it
possible that the short in the switch it too far aware from the earth
connector to send a fault current to trip the fuse?

Although, it's an old fashioned fuse box the actual wiring is
relatively recent and in good condition. When it was tested
a couple of years ago the earth loop impendance reading was 0.3 ohm
from one of the kitchen sockects. I have also checked *the earth
connectors in the socket, in the kitchen fuse box and the connector to
the house itself and they are all tight, although I do understand that
without a proper tester you cant be sure there is not a fault
elsewhere. *The kitchen sockets are connected in a ring.

As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock.

You're either a bloody fool or a troll!

MBQ

wrote:
As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock. Therefore doesnt this
imply that the earth wiring is OK as there would not have been a
circuit for the current to travel down if there was a problem with the
earth.

That's a bit like looking for a gas leak using a match - please stop
testing for earthing by using yourself as a meter!

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could it
simply be a faulty socket switch?

Finding the root cause is not as simple as leaping to conclusions.

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could it
simply be a faulty socket switch?

Easy enough to pop out get a new one and replace it.

I suspect wet/grease/wear/accumulated gunk has produced a leakage
path from the live terminal to the surface of the switch. Is someone
in the household in the habit of wiping down the sockets with a
damp/wet cloth with or without any cleaning agent?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Oct 7, 2:02*pm, Jim wrote:
wrote:
As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock. Therefore doesnt this
imply that the earth wiring is OK as there would not have been a
circuit for the current to travel down if there was a problem with the
earth.

That's a bit like looking for a gas leak using a match - please stop
testing for earthing by using yourself as a meter!


Especially, asthe OP seems to be doing, touching with both hands
(current flowing across heart). I was always taught "keep one hand
in your pocket" when working on high voltage systems.

Robert

On 7 Oct, 13:35, wrote:

The face plate is a standard MK plastic one and its only the switch
which is lighting the screw driver.

In that case (plastic switch), it sounds like there's damp in the
switch. You still have fault #1, but maybe not fault #2 (check
though). As the impedance is high and the current low (you're shocked,
not dead) then it isn't yet enough to pop the fuse. I would be
expecting an RCD (if you had one) to have kicked in by now.

If you wipe the switch down with vinegar for dubious bacteriolgical
reasons, you'll find that vinegar's a better conductor than codensed
steam or absorbed water in accumulated grease and you wind up dead
again - Restaurant kitchen in Bristol a few years back, AFAIR.

Fitting an RCD to all the sockets _except_ the kitchen really wasn't
the best choice. The kitchen is where you need it!

On 7 Oct, 14:35, wrote:
On 7 Oct, 12:29, Andy Dingley wrote:



On 7 Oct, 12:09, geoffr wrote:

You have at least two faults here, both serious enough to be "pull the
fuses and fix immediately".

Firstly your socket faceplate is live. Bad.

Secondly your socket faceplate isn't earthed, via a good low-impedance
earth path. Assuming that fault #1 arises in the nature of wear &
tear, then this should have been sufficient to send a fault current
back through that earth and pop the fuse, thus isolating(sic) the
circuit.

I'd regard #2 as serious here (#1 obviously is) because although poor
earths are endemic in old installations, it sounds here as if you have
a metal-fronted socket which I'd guess was more recent and really
should be earthed properly.

Thanks Andy and John for your replies.

The face plate is a standard MK plastic one and its only the switch
which is lighting the
screw driver. I know these screw drivers aren't accurate but is it
possible that the short in the switch it too far aware from the earth
connector to send a fault current to trip the fuse?

Although, it's an old fashioned fuse box the actual wiring is
relatively recent and in good condition. When it was tested
a couple of years ago the earth loop impendance reading was 0.3 ohm
from one of the kitchen sockects. I have also checked *the earth
connectors in the socket, in the kitchen fuse box and the connector to
the house itself and they are all tight, although I do understand that
without a proper tester you cant be sure there is not a fault
elsewhere. *The kitchen sockets are connected in a ring.

As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock. Therefore doesnt this
imply that the earth wiring is OK as there would not have been a
circuit for the current to travel down if there was a problem with the
earth.

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could it
simply be a faulty socket switch?

Replacing the socket will be a lot cheaper than calling a
professional. Please buy a cheap test meter while you're at the shop,
as testing using your heart is really not a good idea, and my taxes
pay for the ambulance service.

It's not unknown for plastic switches to "leak" electrically, either
due to careless cleaning as others have suggested, or a bad batch of
plastic which is porous, especially problematical in humid rooms like
kitchens.

Chris

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 06:16:41 -0700 (PDT), RobertL
wrote:

On Oct 7, 2:02*pm, Jim wrote:
wrote:
As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock. Therefore doesnt this
imply that the earth wiring is OK as there would not have been a
circuit for the current to travel down if there was a problem with the
earth.

That's a bit like looking for a gas leak using a match - please stop
testing for earthing by using yourself as a meter!


Especially, asthe OP seems to be doing, touching with both hands
(current flowing across heart). I was always taught "keep one hand
in your pocket" when working on high voltage systems.

Robert

I always worked on the principle of, stand on a rubber mat and get
someone else to test it.

"geoffr" wrote in message
...
Just had a strong jolt when I turned on a double socket when at the
same time I was touching a tap in the kitchen. The tap is a combined
hot and cold one. I tried the adjacent socket and another double
socket which is also close enough to the kitchen tap to touch both but
they were fine. I then tried the probem socket again and got the same
jolt. If it's relevant I was wearing a "croc" type shoe.

My electrical tester is broken so I had to rely on an electric screw
driver tester with a neon light. This lit up when in contact with the
socket switch, so assume its a fault with the socket switch.

However, what concerns me is how can you protect yourself from this as
the jolt was fairly strong for an adult, it could be more serious for
a child.

Also, does it indicate a fault with the electrics in the house? The
kitchen is on a separate old fashioned consumer unit with wired fuses
and no RCD protection, while the rest of the ground floor is wired via
a modern consumer unit with an RCD and MCBs. The electrics had been
tested 2 or 3 years ago and as far as I am aware the metal work is
properly bonded.

Any advice would be gratefully received.


Turn off that particular circuit and get a professional inspection done
without delay.

Peter Crosland

"Jim" wrote in message
...
wrote:
That's a bit like looking for a gas leak using a match - please stop
testing for earthing by using yourself as a meter!

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could it
simply be a faulty socket switch?

Finding the root cause is not as simple as leaping to conclusions.
He sounds as if he is leaping, but not to conclusions.

Bill

On Oct 7, 7:23*pm, "Peter Crosland" wrote:
"geoffr" wrote in message

...



Just had a strong jolt when I turned on a double socket when at the
same time I was touching a tap in the kitchen. The tap is a combined
hot and cold one. I tried the adjacent socket and another double
socket which is also close enough to the kitchen tap to touch both but
they were fine. I then tried the probem socket again and got the same
jolt. If it's relevant I was wearing a "croc" type shoe.

My electrical tester is broken so I had to rely on an electric screw
driver tester with a neon light. This lit up when in contact with the
socket switch, so assume its a fault with the socket switch.

However, what concerns me is how can you protect yourself from this as
the jolt was fairly strong for an adult, it could be more serious for
a child.

Also, does it indicate a fault with the electrics in the house? The
kitchen is on a separate old fashioned consumer unit with wired fuses
and no RCD protection, while the rest of the ground floor is wired via
a modern consumer unit with an RCD and MCBs. The electrics had been
tested 2 or 3 years ago and as far as I am aware the metal work is
properly bonded.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Turn off that particular circuit and get a professional inspection done
without delay.

Peter Crosland

I couldnt agree more. The OP should never work on mains electrics, and
this is a potential fatality. That or a joke.


NT

In message
,
RobertL writes
On Oct 7, 2:02*pm, Jim wrote:
wrote:
As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock. Therefore doesnt this
imply that the earth wiring is OK as there would not have been a
circuit for the current to travel down if there was a problem with the
earth.

That's a bit like looking for a gas leak using a match - please stop
testing for earthing by using yourself as a meter!


Especially, asthe OP seems to be doing, touching with both hands
(current flowing across heart). I was always taught "keep one hand
in your pocket" when working on high voltage systems.

Got one of those yesterday - finger to finger

woke me up a bit ...

--
geoff

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could it
simply be a faulty socket switch?

Easy enough to pop out get a new one and replace it.

I suspect wet/grease/wear/accumulated gunk has produced a leakage
path from the live terminal to the surface of the switch. Is someone
in the household in the habit of wiping down the sockets with a
damp/wet cloth with or without any cleaning agent?

About 7 years ago, I was doing some electrical work for my sister in law
while she was working. One day, her daughter came round to see me and
said that she was getting a jolt from a light switch and would I take a
look at it. Now I am not an electrician, but I have learned much about
safe practices and such things from my hobbies. So I volunteered to go
round and look at it right away.

When I got to her house, I found that she had sensibly put some tape
over the switch toggle. I took this off and operated the switch and it
did give out a jolt. I took the switch off the wall after pulling the
fuse and putting it in my pocket.

It turned out, that due to its age, it had picked up a lot of crud and
you could see where the electricity had tracked through to the outside
of the switch. I went out and bought another one and fitted that. End of
shocking story :-)

So tracking does happen.

Dave

So tracking does happen.

Dave

My money would be on tracking too

wrote in message
...
On 7 Oct, 12:29, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 7 Oct, 12:09, geoffr wrote:


You have at least two faults here, both serious enough to be "pull the
fuses and fix immediately".

Firstly your socket faceplate is live. Bad.

Secondly your socket faceplate isn't earthed, via a good low-impedance
earth path. Assuming that fault #1 arises in the nature of wear &
tear, then this should have been sufficient to send a fault current
back through that earth and pop the fuse, thus isolating(sic) the
circuit.

I'd regard #2 as serious here (#1 obviously is) because although poor
earths are endemic in old installations, it sounds here as if you have
a metal-fronted socket which I'd guess was more recent and really
should be earthed properly.

Thanks Andy and John for your replies.

The face plate is a standard MK plastic one and its only the switch
which is lighting the
screw driver. I know these screw drivers aren't accurate but is it
possible that the short in the switch it too far aware from the earth
connector to send a fault current to trip the fuse?

Although, it's an old fashioned fuse box the actual wiring is
relatively recent and in good condition. When it was tested
a couple of years ago the earth loop impendance reading was 0.3 ohm
from one of the kitchen sockects. I have also checked the earth
connectors in the socket, in the kitchen fuse box and the connector to
the house itself and they are all tight, although I do understand that
without a proper tester you cant be sure there is not a fault
elsewhere. The kitchen sockets are connected in a ring.

As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock. Therefore doesnt this
imply that the earth wiring is OK as there would not have been a
circuit for the current to travel down if there was a problem with the
earth.

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could it
simply be a faulty socket switch?

This is wrong, funny, scary and sad on so many levels.

On one level it's Darwinian. You obviously don't know enough or care enough
to protect yourself from the most basic of dangers. According to Darwin
there will always be risk-takers and natural selection will ensure that the
more extreme of them have their genes de-selected from the pool. We're
watching natural selection in action, the question is which side of the line
are you?

On another level you have mis-understood the meaning of DIY. The purpose of
DIY is to provide an excuse to buy expensive tools not to be one. There are
a number of tools for testing electrical circuits but the human body is not
one of them.

On yet another level it's people like you that encourage the Nanny State to
impose ever tighter and sillier rules on the rest of us to prevent stupid
accidents. Part P came about precisely because the government believed that
by tightening the rules they could prevent or at least ameliorate the
effects of stupidity. And to a large extent they were right. Clearly they
don't understand the long term need to allow failure.

Please stop. Right now.
Then choose which of the following (both accurate) pieces of advice to
follow:

1. Don't attempt to fix it unless you understand the safety implications.
Isolate the circuit before working on it. Call a professional if you are
unsure.

2. The human tongue is sensitive to electricity and can be used to check
for voltage. Try it first on a 9V battery then progress it higher things.

On 7 Oct, 15:31, John Rumm wrote:
If you want a set of basic tests to carry out, then post back and I will
list some.

Thanks John. I've read the information in the link you posted, but if
you can provide a set of basic tests then that would be great.

If the tests prove negative then I assume that it's simply a tracking
problem as some of the other posters have suggested. The sockets have
been wiped a few times and there does appear to be a fair amount of
debris around the edges of the switch.

I have isolated the circuit by removing the fuse.

On 7 Oct, 22:47, "Calvin Sambrook" wrote:

On yet another level it's people like you that encourage the Nanny State to
impose ever tighter and sillier rules on the rest of us to prevent stupid
accidents. *Part P came about precisely because the government believed that
by tightening the rules they could prevent or at least ameliorate the
effects of stupidity. *And to a large extent they were right. *Clearly they
don't understand the long term need to allow failure.

Thanks for the reply, but I disagree as no matter how much government
legislate people will still do stupid things. If I injure myself then
I have no one else to blame other than myself. Did the introduction of
building regulations stop unsafe construction?

This is one of the main problems with modern society in that its never
your fault. For example people who are in serious debt or purchased
property and are now in negative equity blame the banks or property
programmes for their problems and never themselves.

It's all down to individual responsibility.

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:09:57 -0700, geoffr wrote:

Thanks for the reply, but I disagree as no matter how much government
legislate people will still do stupid things. If I injure myself then I
have no one else to blame other than myself. Did the introduction of
building regulations stop unsafe construction?

You miss the point. When you kill yourself, you give the state yet
another excuse to interfere.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 22:47:27 +0100, Calvin Sambrook wrote:
2. The human tongue is sensitive to electricity and can be used to check
for voltage. Try it first on a 9V battery then progress it higher things.

Nah, doesn't work with AC - it just hurts in alternate directions, back
and forth 50 times a second; they cancel out, and you don't feel a thing.

(smiley unnecessary, I hope)

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:31:41 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

It sounds like is more than one fault here. The toaster test shows that
the earth connection to the socket is not earthed - if it were you
should not have got a shock,

No, it shows that the toaster is earthed:

As a further test I plugged in the toaster to the socket and
instead
of touching the tap when I turned on the switch I touched the
metal
side of the toaster and I had the same shock.

He is getting the shock when *touching the switch* and something
earthed, be that the tap or the metal toaster.

and more importantly a fuse should have blown.

No, I don't believe there is a fault with the wiring or toaster. Just
a lot of grunge around/in the switch. Have you never had shock/tingle
from a switch when you have wet hands or from a dirty switch?

--
Cheers
Dave.

geoffr wrote:
On 7 Oct, 15:31, John Rumm wrote:
If you want a set of basic tests to carry out, then post back and I
will list some.

Thanks John. I've read the information in the link you posted, but if
you can provide a set of basic tests then that would be great.

If the tests prove negative then I assume that it's simply a tracking
problem as some of the other posters have suggested. The sockets have
been wiped a few times and there does appear to be a fair amount of
debris around the edges of the switch.

I have isolated the circuit by removing the fuse.

TFFT.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Dave wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could
it simply be a faulty socket switch?

Easy enough to pop out get a new one and replace it.

I suspect wet/grease/wear/accumulated gunk has produced a leakage
path from the live terminal to the surface of the switch. Is someone
in the household in the habit of wiping down the sockets with a
damp/wet cloth with or without any cleaning agent?

About 7 years ago, I was doing some electrical work for my sister in
law while she was working. One day, her daughter came round to see me
and said that she was getting a jolt from a light switch and would I
take a look at it. Now I am not an electrician, but I have learned
much about safe practices and such things from my hobbies. So I
volunteered to go round and look at it right away.

When I got to her house, I found that she had sensibly put some tape
over the switch toggle. I took this off and operated the switch and it
did give out a jolt. I took the switch off the wall after pulling the
fuse and putting it in my pocket.

It turned out, that due to its age, it had picked up a lot of crud and
you could see where the electricity had tracked through to the outside
of the switch. I went out and bought another one and fitted that. End
of shocking story :-)

So tracking does happen.

Changed a light switch in a bakery office last week. Full of crud & sh1t.
So old, the metric screws wouldn't thread, had to reuse the originals - what
were they, BA or something? Any idea of when the change was made?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 22:47:27 +0100, Calvin Sambrook wrote:
2. The human tongue is sensitive to electricity and can be used to
check for voltage. Try it first on a 9V battery then progress it
higher things.

Nah, doesn't work with AC - it just hurts in alternate directions,
back and forth 50 times a second; they cancel out, and you don't feel
a thing.

(smiley unnecessary, I hope)

I'll do it for you.

geoffr wrote:
Just had a strong jolt when I turned on a double socket when at the
same time I was touching a tap in the kitchen. The tap is a combined
hot and cold one. I tried the adjacent socket and another double
socket which is also close enough to the kitchen tap to touch both but
they were fine. I then tried the probem socket again and got the same
jolt. If it's relevant I was wearing a "croc" type shoe.

My electrical tester is broken so I had to rely on an electric screw
driver tester with a neon light. This lit up when in contact with the
socket switch, so assume its a fault with the socket switch.

However, what concerns me is how can you protect yourself from this as
the jolt was fairly strong for an adult, it could be more serious for
a child.

Also, does it indicate a fault with the electrics in the house? The
kitchen is on a separate old fashioned consumer unit with wired fuses
and no RCD protection, while the rest of the ground floor is wired via
a modern consumer unit with an RCD and MCBs. The electrics had been
tested 2 or 3 years ago and as far as I am aware the metal work is
properly bonded.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

I'm staggered by this thread that I have watched from inception. I honestly
thought that you were trolling. MBQ and Dave L gave you good advice. What
stopped you isolating the assumed circuit in the first instance? Then check
that the live source was eliminated and replace the socket if the wiring
behind it was sound? Then reconnect and cautiously check using a meter and
glo screwdriver to check before plugging anything in? If you do not
understand these comments, you should have called someone in immediately.
You put your family at risk.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Dave wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could
it simply be a faulty socket switch?
Easy enough to pop out get a new one and replace it.

I suspect wet/grease/wear/accumulated gunk has produced a leakage
path from the live terminal to the surface of the switch. Is someone
in the household in the habit of wiping down the sockets with a
damp/wet cloth with or without any cleaning agent?
About 7 years ago, I was doing some electrical work for my sister in
law while she was working. One day, her daughter came round to see me
and said that she was getting a jolt from a light switch and would I
take a look at it. Now I am not an electrician, but I have learned
much about safe practices and such things from my hobbies. So I
volunteered to go round and look at it right away.

When I got to her house, I found that she had sensibly put some tape
over the switch toggle. I took this off and operated the switch and it
did give out a jolt. I took the switch off the wall after pulling the
fuse and putting it in my pocket.

It turned out, that due to its age, it had picked up a lot of crud and
you could see where the electricity had tracked through to the outside
of the switch. I went out and bought another one and fitted that. End
of shocking story :-)

So tracking does happen.

Changed a light switch in a bakery office last week. Full of crud & sh1t.
So old, the metric screws wouldn't thread, had to reuse the originals - what
were they, BA or something? Any idea of when the change was made?

20 to 25 years ago, I was given a 3.5 mm tap for back boxes, so sorry, I
can't answer the question of when the change took place IYSWIM. But I
think that the screws were so similar that they would have been
interchangeable. Electricians on this ng will confirm.

Dave

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave
saying something like:

20 to 25 years ago, I was given a 3.5 mm tap for back boxes, so sorry, I
can't answer the question of when the change took place IYSWIM. But I
think that the screws were so similar that they would have been
interchangeable. Electricians on this ng will confirm.

No, they certainly aren't.

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:35:05 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
had this to say:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave
saying something like:

20 to 25 years ago, I was given a 3.5 mm tap for back boxes, so sorry, I
can't answer the question of when the change took place IYSWIM. But I
think that the screws were so similar that they would have been
interchangeable. Electricians on this ng will confirm.

No, they certainly aren't.

Which just about proves that any forced change to metrication is
fraught with unnecessary problems.

--
Frank Erskine
Foot, pint and pound are perfectly sound

"geoffr" wrote in message
...
On 7 Oct, 15:31, John Rumm wrote:
If you want a set of basic tests to carry out, then post back and I will
list some.

Thanks John. I've read the information in the link you posted, but if
you can provide a set of basic tests then that would be great.

If the tests prove negative then I assume that it's simply a tracking
problem as some of the other posters have suggested. The sockets have
been wiped a few times and there does appear to be a fair amount of
debris around the edges of the switch.

I have isolated the circuit by removing the fuse.

So you are prepared to put yourself, and your family, at risk because rather
than call in a professional? There are probably other things wrong just
waiting to kill somebody.

Peter Crosland

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
news
Dave wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could
it simply be a faulty socket switch?

Easy enough to pop out get a new one and replace it.

I suspect wet/grease/wear/accumulated gunk has produced a leakage
path from the live terminal to the surface of the switch. Is someone
in the household in the habit of wiping down the sockets with a
damp/wet cloth with or without any cleaning agent?

About 7 years ago, I was doing some electrical work for my sister in
law while she was working. One day, her daughter came round to see me
and said that she was getting a jolt from a light switch and would I
take a look at it. Now I am not an electrician, but I have learned
much about safe practices and such things from my hobbies. So I
volunteered to go round and look at it right away.

When I got to her house, I found that she had sensibly put some tape
over the switch toggle. I took this off and operated the switch and it
did give out a jolt. I took the switch off the wall after pulling the
fuse and putting it in my pocket.

It turned out, that due to its age, it had picked up a lot of crud and
you could see where the electricity had tracked through to the outside
of the switch. I went out and bought another one and fitted that. End
of shocking story :-)

So tracking does happen.

Changed a light switch in a bakery office last week. Full of crud & sh1t.
So old, the metric screws wouldn't thread, had to reuse the originals -
what were they, BA or something? Any idea of when the change was made?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


I swapped an old Volex socket front last week. It was supplied with 4 screws
when new. The 4BA screws were still attached to the back of the socket and
the 3.5M screws had been used. The sizes of the screws were labelled on the
back of the socket.

Assumung that the socket was put on when the house was built I would say
that the socket was 45 to 50 years old.

Adam

"Dave" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Dave wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:35:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I appreciate the risks but before I do call in a professional could
it simply be a faulty socket switch?
Easy enough to pop out get a new one and replace it.

I suspect wet/grease/wear/accumulated gunk has produced a leakage
path from the live terminal to the surface of the switch. Is someone
in the household in the habit of wiping down the sockets with a
damp/wet cloth with or without any cleaning agent?
About 7 years ago, I was doing some electrical work for my sister in
law while she was working. One day, her daughter came round to see me
and said that she was getting a jolt from a light switch and would I
take a look at it. Now I am not an electrician, but I have learned
much about safe practices and such things from my hobbies. So I
volunteered to go round and look at it right away.

When I got to her house, I found that she had sensibly put some tape
over the switch toggle. I took this off and operated the switch and it
did give out a jolt. I took the switch off the wall after pulling the
fuse and putting it in my pocket.

It turned out, that due to its age, it had picked up a lot of crud and
you could see where the electricity had tracked through to the outside
of the switch. I went out and bought another one and fitted that. End
of shocking story :-)

So tracking does happen.

Changed a light switch in a bakery office last week. Full of crud &
sh1t. So old, the metric screws wouldn't thread, had to reuse the
originals - what were they, BA or something? Any idea of when the change
was made?




20 to 25 years ago, I was given a 3.5 mm tap for back boxes,

Not much use in a 4BA hole -)

Adam

In article ,
Dave wrote:
Changed a light switch in a bakery office last week. Full of crud &
sh1t. So old, the metric screws wouldn't thread, had to reuse the
originals - what were they, BA or something? Any idea of when the
change was made?

20 to 25 years ago, I was given a 3.5 mm tap for back boxes, so sorry, I
can't answer the question of when the change took place IYSWIM. But I
think that the screws were so similar that they would have been
interchangeable. Electricians on this ng will confirm.

Somewhere about '70. 4BA screws will sort of fit a 3.5mm thread - but not
the other way round.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:35:05 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
had this to say:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave
saying something like:

20 to 25 years ago, I was given a 3.5 mm tap for back boxes, so sorry, I
can't answer the question of when the change took place IYSWIM. But I
think that the screws were so similar that they would have been
interchangeable. Electricians on this ng will confirm.

No, they certainly aren't.

Which just about proves that any forced change to metrication is
fraught with unnecessary problems.

Of course it will cause initial problems for some. But standardising this
sort of thing makes manufacture for export etc easier.

--
*I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote:

I swapped an old Volex socket front last week. It was supplied with 4
screws when new. The 4BA screws were still attached to the back of the
socket and the 3.5M screws had been used. The sizes of the screws were
labelled on the back of the socket.

Assumung that the socket was put on when the house was built I would say
that the socket was 45 to 50 years old.

The change was made roughly in 1970. So make that about 40 years old.

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:08:36 +0100, Clot wrote:

Any advice would be gratefully received.

I'm staggered by this thread that I have watched from inception. I honestly
thought that you were trolling. MBQ and Dave L gave you good advice. What
stopped you isolating the assumed circuit in the first instance? Then check
that the live source was eliminated and replace the socket if the wiring
behind it was sound? Then reconnect and cautiously check using a meter and
glo screwdriver to check before plugging anything in? If you do not
understand these comments, you should have called someone in immediately.
You put your family at risk.

This is where natural selection doesn't work - if he's already bred, the
stupidity gene has been passed on.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
Calvin Sambrook wrote:

stupid accidents. Part P came about precisely because the government
believed that by tightening the rules they could prevent or at least
ameliorate the effects of stupidity. And to a large extent they were
right. Clearly they don't understand the long term need to allow
failure.

Part P seems to have resulted in an *increase* in accidents and fatalities
(as many of us predicted). So aside from adding cost, complexity, and
bureaucracy to stuff it has hand no effect in eliminating natural
selection!

Part P was never intended to reduce accidents.
Its there to make sure the trade associations make more money to donate to
Labor.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote:

I swapped an old Volex socket front last week. It was supplied with 4
screws when new. The 4BA screws were still attached to the back of the
socket and the 3.5M screws had been used. The sizes of the screws were
labelled on the back of the socket.

Assumung that the socket was put on when the house was built I would say
that the socket was 45 to 50 years old.

The change was made roughly in 1970. So make that about 40 years old.

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW


Maybe, but I have never come across 4BA threads on on backboxes in houses
where the original lighting circuit has an earth. ISTR that lighting
circuits needed an cpc from 1966 onwards.

I often see 3.5M thread 16mm deep back boxes that have no earth terminal.
Therefore I believe that the thread size changeover was just before the cpc
requirement for lighting.

Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message
20 to 25 years ago, I was given a 3.5 mm tap for back boxes,

Not much use in a 4BA hole -)

Ah, I see what you mean. My big mistake. :-(

Dave