Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one end
of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite hysterical, but
that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously considering fitting a
conventional electric immersion tank very near to the taps. So, I need to
work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm not one for doing these things
just for show, like those people who put a wind turbine on their roof. The
tap is turned on about four times per day when the water in the pipe is
cold. The volume of cold water that comes before the hot (and thus of course
the volume of hot left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out
the total cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water. The
boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The water
supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be good and hot,
which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to exclude any
savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold, and just
calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the system
hasn't been used for hours.

Bill

Bill Wright wrote:
Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one end
of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite hysterical, but
that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously considering fitting a
conventional electric immersion tank very near to the taps. So, I need to
work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm not one for doing these things
just for show, like those people who put a wind turbine on their roof. The
tap is turned on about four times per day when the water in the pipe is
cold. The volume of cold water that comes before the hot (and thus of course
the volume of hot left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out
the total cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water. The
boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The water
supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be good and hot,
which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to exclude any
savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold, and just
calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the system
hasn't been used for hours.

Bill



Well it takes approx 4.2 Joules to heat 1gm (1ml) by 1 degree
centigrade, so assuming your hot water is 60 degrees above ambient then
I gallon requires about 1134 KiloJoules. If your boiler is 90%
efficient this ought to take about 0.35 Kwh to heat LPG cost about 2p.


best wishes

Nick
----------------------------

Bill Wright wrote:
Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one end
of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite hysterical, but
that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously considering fitting a
conventional electric immersion tank very near to the taps. So, I need to
work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm not one for doing these things
just for show, like those people who put a wind turbine on their roof. The
tap is turned on about four times per day when the water in the pipe is
cold. The volume of cold water that comes before the hot (and thus of course
the volume of hot left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out
the total cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water. The
boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The water
supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be good and hot,
which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to exclude any
savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold, and just
calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the system
hasn't been used for hours.

Bill



Bill,

Here are the options as I see it:

1) A source of hot water near the tanks;

2) 'Secondary Circulation'; a more complex arrangement where we pump HW
around a loop close to the taps, so the water at the 'ring' remains hot.
This is used in hotels etc to ensure hot water is reasonable
available to individual rooms, even though the hot tank is distant.
Let's assume we don't want to do this, it's non-trivial, and even less
so to retro-fit.

So let's go with option (1); a source of hot water near the taps.

Option 1a) Instant HW heaters. I dislike these, Dribbly HW flow, and
they remind me of portakabins.

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of HW
under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you don't want to fill
a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity: instant
HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

Option 1c) Large immersion- or other- based tank, some further distance
away. Advantages: Large volume of hot water ( if you want to fill a
bath ); Reasonably close proximity. Disadvantages: bulky, complex
retrofit.

Depending on what your needs are, the under-sink pressurised cylinders
may be the simplest and most effective.

--
Ron

On Oct 2, 6:24*pm, Ron Lowe wrote:
Bill Wright wrote:
Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one end
of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite hysterical, but
that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously considering fitting a
conventional electric immersion tank very near to the taps. So, I need to
work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm not one for doing these things
just for show, like those people who put a wind turbine on their roof. The
tap is turned on about four times per day when the water in the pipe is
cold. The volume of cold water that comes before the hot (and thus of course
the volume of hot left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out
the total cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water. The
boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The water
supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be good and hot,
which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to exclude any
savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold, and just
calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the system
hasn't been used for hours.

Bill

Bill,

Here are the options as I see it:

1) A source of hot water near the tanks;

2) 'Secondary Circulation'; a more complex arrangement where we pump HW
around a loop close to the taps, so the water at the 'ring' remains hot.
* *This is used in hotels etc to ensure hot water is reasonable
available to individual rooms, even though the hot tank is distant.
Let's assume we don't want to do this, it's non-trivial, and even less
so to retro-fit.

So let's go with option (1); a source of hot water near the taps.

Option 1a) Instant HW heaters. * I dislike these, Dribbly HW flow, and
they remind me of portakabins.

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. * They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of HW
under the sink, in a smallish unit. * So long as you don't want to fill
a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity: instant
HW. * Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

Option 1c) Large immersion- or other- based tank, some further distance
away. * Advantages: Large volume of hot water ( if you want to fill a
bath ); Reasonably close proximity. * Disadvantages: bulky, complex
retrofit.

Depending on what your needs are, the under-sink pressurised cylinders
may be the simplest and most effective.

I guess a small undersink job fed from your HW pipe would give you the
best of both worlds. Instant HW for handwashing, plus an endless
supply of hot for baths etc


NT

NT wrote:
On Oct 2, 6:24 pm, Ron Lowe wrote:
Bill Wright wrote:
Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one end
of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite hysterical, but
that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously considering fitting a
conventional electric immersion tank very near to the taps. So, I need to
work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm not one for doing these things
just for show, like those people who put a wind turbine on their roof. The
tap is turned on about four times per day when the water in the pipe is
cold. The volume of cold water that comes before the hot (and thus of course
the volume of hot left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out
the total cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water. The
boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The water
supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be good and hot,
which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to exclude any
savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold, and just
calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the system
hasn't been used for hours.
Bill
Bill,

Here are the options as I see it:

1) A source of hot water near the tanks;

2) 'Secondary Circulation'; a more complex arrangement where we pump HW
around a loop close to the taps, so the water at the 'ring' remains hot.
This is used in hotels etc to ensure hot water is reasonable
available to individual rooms, even though the hot tank is distant.
Let's assume we don't want to do this, it's non-trivial, and even less
so to retro-fit.

So let's go with option (1); a source of hot water near the taps.

Option 1a) Instant HW heaters. I dislike these, Dribbly HW flow, and
they remind me of portakabins.

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of HW
under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you don't want to fill
a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity: instant
HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

Option 1c) Large immersion- or other- based tank, some further distance
away. Advantages: Large volume of hot water ( if you want to fill a
bath ); Reasonably close proximity. Disadvantages: bulky, complex
retrofit.

Depending on what your needs are, the under-sink pressurised cylinders
may be the simplest and most effective.

I guess a small undersink job fed from your HW pipe would give you the
best of both worlds. Instant HW for handwashing, plus an endless
supply of hot for baths etc


NT

For the baths, I'd probably feed the existing HW through a solar panel
in the roof and then through a 2KW instant heater. Then as a DIY
solution to the stone-cold bath, take a 3KW element, wire it to a piece
of flex, and throw it into the bath. Some silicone grease around the
electrical connections ought to keep the smoke in.

Wear a full-body drysuit, or alternativly a body-bag to assist the
emergency services.

--
Ron

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bill Wright wrote:

Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at
one end of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite
hysterical, but that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water
off for ages before any hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously
considering fitting a conventional electric immersion tank very near
to the taps. So, I need to work out whether it would ever pay back.
I'm not one for doing these things just for show, like those people
who put a wind turbine on their roof. The tap is turned on about four
times per day when the water in the pipe is cold. The volume of cold
water that comes before the hot (and thus of course the volume of hot
left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out the total
cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water.
The boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The
water supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be
good and hot, which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared
to exclude any savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but
not cold, and just calculate on the basis of the freezing water that
I get when the system hasn't been used for hours.
Bill

Assuming that you nead to heat an extra 7 pints (4 litres) of water by 55
degrees (from 5 to 60) each time you run the hot tap, the direct energy
wasted is about a quarter of a kWh which - if using electricity at 10p per
unit is about 2.5p. Allowing for inefficiencies, that may rise to 3 or 4 4p
at the most. If you do this 4 times per day, you *could* waste 16p per day -
or £58 per year - although the cost will be a lot less if using gas. Either
way, the pay-back time on the cost of an additional installation will be
quite a few years.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one end
of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite hysterical, but
that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water off for ages before
any hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously considering fitting a
conventional electric immersion tank very near to the taps. So, I need to
work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm not one for doing these
things just for show, like those people who put a wind turbine on their
roof. The tap is turned on about four times per day when the water in the
pipe is cold. The volume of cold water that comes before the hot (and thus
of course the volume of hot left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I
can find out the total cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I
don't know is how much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of
cold water. The boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the
yard. The water supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to
be good and hot, which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to
exclude any savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold,
and just calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the
system hasn't been used for hours.

Bill

Another small combi close to the taps?
Or just have the combi moved?
We have stored hot water with a very long run of unlagged pipes and we can
grow old and bitter waiting for the water to run hot, but we plan to replace
everything with a combi close to the taps.
In the long run this may be more cost effective for you than adding a second
system and thus removing most of the point of having a combi in the first
place.
You used to be able to get wall mounted 'kettles' which held about a gallon
and would heat on demand.
My ex-workplace had a water heater which was supposed to replace the kettle
but was plumbed in very badly and also had a bad taste to the water and so
was not used, but you can get a water heater which will hold a few gallons
and can be mounted on the wall and heated electrically. This is likely to be
more cost effective than a conventional immersion tank which (AFAIK) is
sized to fill a bath and takes up quite a lot of room.

Another thought - your combi is quite capable of acting as a system boiler
and heating a hot water tank as well as the radiators.
Perhaps you could have a hot water storage tank near to your taps which is
heated on another circuit by the combi?

Oh, just move your sink nearer to the combi ;-)

Cheers

Dave R

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bill Wright wrote:

Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at
one end of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite
hysterical, but that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water
off for ages before any hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously
considering fitting a conventional electric immersion tank very near
to the taps. So, I need to work out whether it would ever pay back.
I'm not one for doing these things just for show, like those people
who put a wind turbine on their roof. The tap is turned on about four
times per day when the water in the pipe is cold. The volume of cold
water that comes before the hot (and thus of course the volume of hot
left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out the total
cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water.
The boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The
water supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be
good and hot, which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared
to exclude any savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but
not cold, and just calculate on the basis of the freezing water that
I get when the system hasn't been used for hours.
Bill

Assuming that you nead to heat an extra 7 pints (4 litres) of water by 55
degrees (from 5 to 60) each time you run the hot tap, the direct energy
wasted is about a quarter of a kWh which - if using electricity at 10p per
unit is about 2.5p. Allowing for inefficiencies, that may rise to 3 or 4
4p at the most. If you do this 4 times per day, you *could* waste 16p per
day - or £58 per year - although the cost will be a lot less if using gas.
Either way, the pay-back time on the cost of an additional installation
will be quite a few years.

If the tap is only used four times a day then running a smaller pipe will
save a lot.
10 mm pipe would save about 50% and could possibly be done by drawing a
plastic pipe through the existing one. Maybe even just inserting the pipe
with the ends blocked off would work OK as it reduces the volume of the
pipe.
The flow would also decrease maybe to an unacceptable level.
OTH it is a mains pressure system.

Ron Lowe wrote:

Option 1c) Large immersion- or other- based tank, some further distance
away. Advantages: Large volume of hot water ( if you want to fill a
bath ); Reasonably close proximity. Disadvantages: bulky, complex
retrofit.

There is a variation on 1c; using an extra heating zone on the boiler to
heat it rather than an immersion. However since it sounds like the gas
in question here is LPG, the cost difference is not going to be as great
as with electric Vs natural gas.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , Ron Lowe
writes

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of
HW under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you don't want to
fill a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity:
instant HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

I fitted option 1b and pleased swmbo:-)

After thoughts... I actually fitted ours in the hot supply (despite the
instructions otherwise) because the water is softened and I thought it
might help with lime scale. Running enough hot to rinse a tea cup does
not fully heat up the pipe run.
Worth insulating the connecting pipes as they bridge the cylinder
insulation. A pressure relief valve is part of the kit and can usually
be plumbed in to a spare spigot around the waste trap.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Ron Lowe
writes

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the
sink. These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more
pints! )of HW under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you
don't want to fill a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. )
Advantages: Easy retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very
close proximity: instant HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of
stored HW.

I fitted option 1b and pleased swmbo:-)


It would certainly solve the delay problem when you only want a small
quantity of hot water. But it won't save you any money - and will probably
cost *more* to run if all your kitchen water is then heated by on-peak
electricity rather than by gas at one third of the price. And that's quite
apart from the capital cost of the extra cylinder etc.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

On 2 Oct, 20:52, Tim Lamb wrote:
... Running enough hot to rinse a tea cup does
not fully heat up the pipe run.

So rinse the teacup with a splash of hot water from the kettle.

Owain

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bill Wright wrote:

Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at
one end of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite
hysterical, but that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water
off for ages before any hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously
considering fitting a conventional electric immersion tank very near
to the taps. So, I need to work out whether it would ever pay back.
I'm not one for doing these things just for show, like those people
who put a wind turbine on their roof. The tap is turned on about four
times per day when the water in the pipe is cold. The volume of cold
water that comes before the hot (and thus of course the volume of hot
left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out the total
cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how
much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water.
The boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The
water supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be
good and hot, which is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared
to exclude any savings made when the water in the pipe is cool but
not cold, and just calculate on the basis of the freezing water that
I get when the system hasn't been used for hours.
Bill

Assuming that you nead to heat an extra 7 pints (4 litres) of water by 55
degrees (from 5 to 60) each time you run the hot tap, the direct energy
wasted is about a quarter of a kWh which - if using electricity at 10p per
unit is about 2.5p. Allowing for inefficiencies, that may rise to 3 or 4
4p at the most. If you do this 4 times per day, you *could* waste 16p per
day - or £58 per year - although the cost will be a lot less if using gas.
Either way, the pay-back time on the cost of an additional installation
will be quite a few years.

Thanks to all who have made sensible suggestions. There's the additional
benefit of not having to wait for hot water. I might just do it.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
Assuming that you nead to heat an extra 7 pints (4 litres) of water by 55
degrees (from 5 to 60) each time you run the hot tap, the direct energy
wasted is about a quarter of a kWh which - if using electricity at 10p
per unit is about 2.5p. Allowing for inefficiencies, that may rise to 3
or 4 4p at the most. If you do this 4 times per day, you *could* waste
16p per day - or £58 per year - although the cost will be a lot less if
using gas. Either way, the pay-back time on the cost of an additional
installation will be quite a few years.

Thanks to all who have made sensible suggestions. There's the additional
benefit of not having to wait for hot water. I might just do it.

I've also run the calcs and agree the above if you were using electricity at
10p a k/Wh. However remember the heat lost from the pipes isn't actually
wasted when you're heating the house anyway in winter. Using LPG as you are
doing let's say it's really only costing about 3p per k/Wh so you're wasting
3p a day for 7 or 8 months of the year and the rest of the time it just
helps heat the house. So that's about 7 quid a year. Not worth fussing over.
--
Dave Baker

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one
end of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite
hysterical, but that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water
off for ages before any hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously
considering fitting a conventional electric immersion tank very near to
the taps. So, I need to work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm
not one for doing these things just for show, like those people who put
a wind turbine on their roof. The tap is turned on about four times per
day when the water in the pipe is cold. The volume of cold water that
comes before the hot (and thus of course the volume of hot left to cool
in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out the total cost of getting
an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how much it costs to
heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water. The boiler is fairly
new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The water supply not
unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be good and hot, which
is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to exclude any savings
made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold, and just
calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the system
hasn't been used for hours.

Have you got gas in that area? A small multi point gas heater close to the
tap would be ideal as you'll then get continuous hot water. They can be
bought secondhand quite cheaply. There's no electric system that will
provide this at a reasonable flow - takes too much current.

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Oct 3, 8:50*am, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
* *Bill Wright wrote:



Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at one
end of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite
hysterical, but that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water
off for ages before any hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously
considering fitting a conventional electric immersion tank very near to
the taps. So, I need to work out whether it would ever pay back. I'm
not one for doing these things just for show, like those people who put
a wind turbine on their roof. The tap is turned on about four times per
day when the water in the pipe is cold. The volume of cold water that
comes before the hot (and thus of course the volume of hot left to cool
in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out the total cost of getting
an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is how much it costs to
heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold water. The boiler is fairly
new and runs on a big gas tank in the yard. The water supply not
unusually warm or cold. The hot water needs to be good and hot, which
is it at the moment once it comes. I am prepared to exclude any savings
made when the water in the pipe is cool but not cold, and just
calculate on the basis of the freezing water that I get when the system
hasn't been used for hours.

Have you got gas in that area? A small multi point gas heater close to the
tap would be ideal as you'll then get continuous hot water. They can be
bought secondhand quite cheaply. There's no electric system that will
provide this at a reasonable flow - takes too much current.

shame no-one makes a pipe heating wire that wraps round the existing
hot pipe and heats it to 60C thermostatically. Probably could be DIYed
if you wanted.


NT

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

In message
,
Owain writes
On 2 Oct, 20:52, Tim Lamb wrote:
... Running enough hot to rinse a tea cup does
not fully heat up the pipe run.

So rinse the teacup with a splash of hot water from the kettle.

Huh!

I have to retrieve crocks from the washing up bowl and hide them in the
dishwasher. Some domestic staff just love to get their hands in hot
water.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Ron Lowe wrote:
Bill Wright wrote:
Our combi boiler is a long way from all the taps, which are all at
one end of the house. The reasons are historical, and also quite
hysterical, but that's beside the point. I stand there drawing water
off for ages before any hot comes, and it annoys me. I'm seriously
considering fitting a conventional electric immersion tank very near
to the taps. So, I need to work out whether it would ever pay back.
I'm not one for doing these things just for show, like those people
who put a wind turbine on their roof. The tap is turned on about
four times per day when the water in the pipe is cold. The volume of
cold water that comes before the hot (and thus of course the volume
of hot left to cool in the pipe) is seven pints. I can find out the
total cost of getting an immersion tank fitted. What I don't know is
how much it costs to heat a given volume (a gallon, say) of cold
water. The boiler is fairly new and runs on a big gas tank in the
yard. The water supply not unusually warm or cold. The hot water
needs to be good and hot, which is it at the moment once it comes. I
am prepared to exclude any savings made when the water in the pipe
is cool but not cold, and just calculate on the basis of the
freezing water that I get when the system hasn't been used for
hours. Bill



Bill,

Here are the options as I see it:

1) A source of hot water near the tanks;

2) 'Secondary Circulation'; a more complex arrangement where we pump
HW around a loop close to the taps, so the water at the 'ring'
remains hot. This is used in hotels etc to ensure hot water is
reasonable available to individual rooms, even though the hot tank is
distant.
Let's assume we don't want to do this, it's non-trivial, and even less
so to retro-fit.

So let's go with option (1); a source of hot water near the taps.

Option 1a) Instant HW heaters. I dislike these, Dribbly HW flow, and
they remind me of portakabins.

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of
HW under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you don't want to
fill a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity:
instant HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

Are those the ones that require a vented hot tap Ron? If so the OP should
consider the hige cost of the taps.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article , The
Medway Handyman writes
Ron Lowe wrote:

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of
HW under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you don't want to
fill a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity:
instant HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

Are those the ones that require a vented hot tap Ron? If so the OP should
consider the hige cost of the taps.

Some do, some don't, the better ones are pressure rated and say there's
enough expansion capacity in a small run of pipework to do the job but
if not then a tiny expansion vessel will do. On these there's no need
for the expensive taps, otherwise ouch.

TLC have some good examples.
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. com...
Ron Lowe wrote:
snip
Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of
HW under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you don't want to
fill a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity:
instant HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

Are those the ones that require a vented hot tap Ron? If so the OP should
consider the hige cost of the taps.

Does it have to be under the sink?

The wall mounted ones come with their own tap and an overflow which should
be routed into the sink (not onto the edge between the sink and worksurface
as it was in my ex-workplace).
Not as pretty as a concealed system but straightforward and practical.

On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 10:29:21 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


1) A source of hot water near the tanks;

2) 'Secondary Circulation'; a more complex arrangement where we pump
HW around a loop close to the taps, so the water at the 'ring'
remains hot. This is used in hotels etc to ensure hot water is
reasonable available to individual rooms, even though the hot tank is
distant.
Let's assume we don't want to do this, it's non-trivial, and even less
so to retro-fit.

So let's go with option (1); a source of hot water near the taps.

Option 1a) Instant HW heaters. I dislike these, Dribbly HW flow, and
they remind me of portakabins.

Option 1b) Small immersion-based pressurised cylinders under the sink.
These work well. They store a few litres ( and even more pints! )of
HW under the sink, in a smallish unit. So long as you don't want to
fill a bath from it, it's good ( hand-washing, etc. ) Advantages: Easy
retrofit assuming cold supply is adequate; very close proximity:
instant HW. Disadvantages: Lowish volume of stored HW.

Are those the ones that require a vented hot tap Ron? If so the OP should
consider the hige cost of the taps.

Been looking at these; these don't seem too bad at £71.20 including a
special set of pillar taps.

http://www.hygienesuppliesdirect.com...cts/prod147436

Note that they are designed for a single wash basin but seem to
operate with a combined hot / cold pillar tap. Not a usual setup for
an existing handwash basin.

Might need an angle grinder to modify the tappery-holery arrangements.

Derek

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Derek

On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:30:10 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote:

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Derek

You be careful with that vacuum gas: if it don't kill you it'll leave you
short of breath.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

Are those the ones that require a vented hot tap Ron? If so the OP should
consider the hige cost of the taps.



No, that's not the ones I meant. ( They are actually vented, via the
open spout, not unvented. )

I dislike these because they seem to dribble all the time.

The ones I mean are mini-megaflos. Proper unvented mains pressure
stored HW.


--
Ron

On Oct 4, 8:30 am, Derek Geldard wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F

wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

That's odd. All the vacuum flasks that I have seen have a hole in them
already.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 14:14:11 -0700 (PDT), Matty F wrote:

On Oct 4, 8:30 am, Derek Geldard wrote:
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F

wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

That's odd. All the vacuum flasks that I have seen have a hole in them
already.

That's to let the air out.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

In message , Derek Geldard
writes
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Rare stuff that vacuum gas ...

--
geoff

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 23:16:47 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , Derek Geldard
writes
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Rare stuff that vacuum gas ...

Oh yes,

When he got the "order of the boot" Prescott was just about to to make
it compulsory to take old B9A & B7G bottles down the scrapy^W^W^W
recycling facility so they can snip the "pip" off and recover the rare
vacuum gas.

So I've heard ...

Derek

On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 03:13:50 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote:

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 23:16:47 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , Derek Geldard
writes
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Rare stuff that vacuum gas ...

Oh yes,

When he got the "order of the boot" Prescott was just about to to make
it compulsory to take old B9A & B7G bottles down the scrapy^W^W^W
recycling facility so they can snip the "pip" off and recover the rare
vacuum gas.

So I've heard ...

Derek

Wouldn't need much storage space.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

In message , PeterC
writes
On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 03:13:50 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote:

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 23:16:47 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , Derek Geldard
writes
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Rare stuff that vacuum gas ...

Oh yes,

When he got the "order of the boot" Prescott was just about to to make
it compulsory to take old B9A & B7G bottles down the scrapy^W^W^W
recycling facility so they can snip the "pip" off and recover the rare
vacuum gas.

So I've heard ...

Derek

Wouldn't need much storage space.


What - the gas or John Prescott?

--
geoff

On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:33:03 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , PeterC
writes
On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 03:13:50 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote:

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 23:16:47 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , Derek Geldard
writes
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Rare stuff that vacuum gas ...

Oh yes,

When he got the "order of the boot" Prescott was just about to to make
it compulsory to take old B9A & B7G bottles down the scrapy^W^W^W
recycling facility so they can snip the "pip" off and recover the rare
vacuum gas.

So I've heard ...

Derek

Wouldn't need much storage space.


What - the gas or John Prescott?

Would that life were so easy that we could store them both in the same
container, but I fear Shagger Prescott would burst.

Derek

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 23:16:47 +0100, geoff wrote:
snip
Rare stuff that vacuum gas ...

Oh yes,

When he got the "order of the boot" Prescott was just about to to make
it compulsory to take old B9A & B7G bottles down the scrapy^W^W^W
recycling facility so they can snip the "pip" off and recover the rare
vacuum gas.

So I've heard ...

Derek

Frankly, I think that idea sucks.

On 4 Oct, 11:33, geoff wrote:
In message , PeterC
writes





On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 03:13:50 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote:

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 23:16:47 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , Derek Geldard
writes
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:53:16 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Oct 3, 5:04 am, "Bill Wright" wrote:
I stand there drawing water off for ages before any
hot comes, and it annoys me.

Run the pipe near the tap through the neck and into the bottom of a
large Thermos flask (vacuum flask) and take the water out from the top
of the flask.

I did that once. All the vacuum gas escaped when I drilled the flask
to take a pipe fitting.

Rare stuff that vacuum gas ...

Oh yes,

When he got the "order of the boot" Prescott was just about to to make
it compulsory to *take old B9A & B7G bottles down the scrapy^W^W^W
recycling facility so they can snip the "pip" off and recover the rare
vacuum gas.

So I've heard ...

Derek

Wouldn't need much storage space.

What - the gas or John Prescott?

--
geoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


fpwahahaha

what a guy