Hello,

A relative has an outdoor tap. The walls and floors are concrete so
difficult to drill (non-sds), so whoever fitted the tap took the easy
option of drilling through the upstairs wall (there are no pipes
downstairs on that side of the house) and dropping a 15mm copper pipe
down the outside of the house. It was lagged but obviously not enough.
There is a "tear" in the pipe where presumably the water froze in the
winter. The repair has been one of those things no-one has got round
to for several months!

I was hoping to help by using one of those repair compression fittings
only I found I could not slide the nuts on. Do you think that the ice
stretched the pipe and made it fractionally wider? If so, what use are
these repair fittings?

The tap had a built in non return valve. I wondered whether these are
perhaps a bad thing? I realise there should be a valve but would it be
better fitted inside the house? If a tap was fitted without a valve
and the pipe was isolated and the tap opened, wouldn't the pipe drain
completely?

Now if a tap with built in valve was used, would the pipe drain under
the same circumstances or does the non return valve require some
pressure to open it? Would water remain in the pipe that could freeze
and cause the damage that occurred?

I am thinking of taking my sds drill and see if it will drill through
the concrete floor so that the pipe drop can be run inside the house
and go outdoors at the last minute.

Thanks,
Stephen.

In message , Stephen
writes
Hello,

A relative has an outdoor tap. The walls and floors are concrete so
difficult to drill (non-sds), so whoever fitted the tap took the easy
option of drilling through the upstairs wall (there are no pipes
downstairs on that side of the house) and dropping a 15mm copper pipe
down the outside of the house. It was lagged but obviously not enough.
There is a "tear" in the pipe where presumably the water froze in the
winter. The repair has been one of those things no-one has got round
to for several months!

I was hoping to help by using one of those repair compression fittings
only I found I could not slide the nuts on. Do you think that the ice
stretched the pipe and made it fractionally wider? If so, what use are
these repair fittings?

The tap had a built in non return valve. I wondered whether these are
perhaps a bad thing? I realise there should be a valve but would it be
better fitted inside the house? If a tap was fitted without a valve
and the pipe was isolated and the tap opened, wouldn't the pipe drain
completely?

Non return valves are designed to show how little our water authorities
understand about supplying water.

Now if a tap with built in valve was used, would the pipe drain under
the same circumstances or does the non return valve require some
pressure to open it? Would water remain in the pipe that could freeze
and cause the damage that occurred?

I am not a plumber but... vertical stand pipes survive frosty weather
due to the curious way water expands below 4deg. C This allows the
coldest water and eventually ice to float on top.

Your relative has the unfortunate situation where the water freezes at
the top preventing the trapped water from expanding without bursting the
pipe.

IME non return valves do the same thing in miniatu-(

I am thinking of taking my sds drill and see if it will drill through
the concrete floor so that the pipe drop can be run inside the house
and go outdoors at the last minute.

Good luck:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stephen wrote:


I was hoping to help by using one of those repair compression fittings
only I found I could not slide the nuts on. Do you think that the ice
stretched the pipe and made it fractionally wider? If so, what use are
these repair fittings?

How old is the pipe? Could it be 1/2" rather than 15mm? If so, it would be
*slightly* bigger than 15mm and, with a bit of surface corrosion on top, it
may be difficult to get a 15mm fitting over it. How have you cut out the
damaged section? Have you left any burrs at the end of the pipe - because
these, too, would stop an olive from going on easily.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

The message
from Stephen contains these words:

I was hoping to help by using one of those repair compression fittings
only I found I could not slide the nuts on. Do you think that the ice
stretched the pipe and made it fractionally wider?

Yes. I run a caravan site and have come across that problem frequently.

If so, what use are
these repair fittings?

Very little :-(

John

Stephen explained :
I was hoping to help by using one of those repair compression fittings
only I found I could not slide the nuts on. Do you think that the ice
stretched the pipe and made it fractionally wider? If so, what use are
these repair fittings?

The tap had a built in non return valve. I wondered whether these are
perhaps a bad thing? I realise there should be a valve but would it be
better fitted inside the house? If a tap was fitted without a valve
and the pipe was isolated and the tap opened, wouldn't the pipe drain
completely?

You could always fit the valve inboard of the point where it goes out
through the wall and inboard of an isolation valve. That way opening
the tap and turning the isolation to off should drain it.


Now if a tap with built in valve was used, would the pipe drain under
the same circumstances or does the non return valve require some
pressure to open it? Would water remain in the pipe that could freeze
and cause the damage that occurred?

I would have thought so (see above)

I am thinking of taking my sds drill and see if it will drill through
the concrete floor so that the pipe drop can be run inside the house
and go outdoors at the last minute.

I have a couple of taps outside and both only have the actual tap on
the outside, all pipework is inside. We have never had any problems
with freezing. There is a limit to how much lagging can help stop pipes
freezing. If it stays cold enough for long enough, eventually the cold
will get through and unless there is some heat source - the pipe will
freeze.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Stephen explained :
I was hoping to help by using one of those repair compression
fittings only I found I could not slide the nuts on. Do you think
that the ice stretched the pipe and made it fractionally wider? If
so, what use are these repair fittings?

The tap had a built in non return valve. I wondered whether these are
perhaps a bad thing? I realise there should be a valve but would it
be better fitted inside the house? If a tap was fitted without a
valve and the pipe was isolated and the tap opened, wouldn't the
pipe drain completely?

You could always fit the valve inboard of the point where it goes out
through the wall and inboard of an isolation valve. That way opening
the tap and turning the isolation to off should drain it.


Now if a tap with built in valve was used, would the pipe drain under
the same circumstances or does the non return valve require some
pressure to open it? Would water remain in the pipe that could freeze
and cause the damage that occurred?

I would have thought so (see above)

I am thinking of taking my sds drill and see if it will drill through
the concrete floor so that the pipe drop can be run inside the house
and go outdoors at the last minute.

I have a couple of taps outside and both only have the actual tap on
the outside, all pipework is inside. We have never had any problems
with freezing. There is a limit to how much lagging can help stop
pipes freezing. If it stays cold enough for long enough, eventually
the cold will get through and unless there is some heat source - the
pipe will freeze.

High pressure ring mains are quite common in food processing plants &
usually have an outside take off for vehicle cleaning. Water freezing when
already at 100 bar + static pressure is pretty unforgiving. Solution was a
timer on that outlet that opened a drain valve at regular intervals to keep
the water on the move so it couldn't freeze.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman has brought this to us :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Stephen explained :
I was hoping to help by using one of those repair compression
fittings only I found I could not slide the nuts on. Do you think
that the ice stretched the pipe and made it fractionally wider? If
so, what use are these repair fittings?

The tap had a built in non return valve. I wondered whether these are
perhaps a bad thing? I realise there should be a valve but would it
be better fitted inside the house? If a tap was fitted without a
valve and the pipe was isolated and the tap opened, wouldn't the
pipe drain completely?

You could always fit the valve inboard of the point where it goes out
through the wall and inboard of an isolation valve. That way opening
the tap and turning the isolation to off should drain it.


Now if a tap with built in valve was used, would the pipe drain under
the same circumstances or does the non return valve require some
pressure to open it? Would water remain in the pipe that could freeze
and cause the damage that occurred?

I would have thought so (see above)

I am thinking of taking my sds drill and see if it will drill through
the concrete floor so that the pipe drop can be run inside the house
and go outdoors at the last minute.

I have a couple of taps outside and both only have the actual tap on
the outside, all pipework is inside. We have never had any problems
with freezing. There is a limit to how much lagging can help stop
pipes freezing. If it stays cold enough for long enough, eventually
the cold will get through and unless there is some heat source - the
pipe will freeze.

High pressure ring mains are quite common in food processing plants & usually
have an outside take off for vehicle cleaning. Water freezing when already
at 100 bar + static pressure is pretty unforgiving. Solution was a timer on
that outlet that opened a drain valve at regular intervals to keep the water
on the move so it couldn't freeze.

Another solution would to use electric trace heating - It is like a
tape which is run down the length of the pipe, under the insulation. I
think you can now get a tape which includes the facility to control
itself, turning on and off as needed.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
Hello,

A relative has an outdoor tap. The walls and floors are concrete so
difficult to drill (non-sds), so whoever fitted the tap took the easy
option of drilling through the upstairs wall (there are no pipes
downstairs on that side of the house) and dropping a 15mm copper pipe
down the outside of the house. It was lagged but obviously not enough.
There is a "tear" in the pipe where presumably the water froze in the
winter. The repair has been one of those things no-one has got round
to for several months!..


I would replace the whole drop with black HDPE pipe. That won't care if the
water inside freezes.

Colin Bignell

In message , nightjar
writes

"Stephen" wrote in message
.. .
Hello,

A relative has an outdoor tap. The walls and floors are concrete so
difficult to drill (non-sds), so whoever fitted the tap took the easy
option of drilling through the upstairs wall (there are no pipes
downstairs on that side of the house) and dropping a 15mm copper pipe
down the outside of the house. It was lagged but obviously not enough.
There is a "tear" in the pipe where presumably the water froze in the
winter. The repair has been one of those things no-one has got round
to for several months!..


I would replace the whole drop with black HDPE pipe. That won't care if the
water inside freezes.

I used some Hep2O for the final feed for a greenhouse at the end of the
garden. the pipe was never bothered, but one time when the water froze
the pipe pushed out of the tap compression joint enough so that it
leaked quite dramatically on thawing.

Might have been ok though if I had used specific fittings for the pipe I
guess.
--
Chris French

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:26:34 +0100, chris French wrote:

I would replace the whole drop with black HDPE pipe. That won't care if the
water inside freezes.

I used some Hep2O for the final feed for a greenhouse at the end of the
garden. the pipe was never bothered, but one time when the water froze
the pipe pushed out of the tap compression joint enough so that it
leaked quite dramatically on thawing.

Might have been ok though if I had used specific fittings for the pipe I
guess.

Yes, having used Speedfit and Hep2o, the former is quick and the latter is
more of a faf but less likely to be blown apart.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 21:36:18 +0100, "Roger Mills"
wrote:

Could it be 1/2" rather than 15mm? If so, it would be
*slightly* bigger than 15mm and, with a bit of surface corrosion on top, it
may be difficult to get a 15mm fitting over it. How have you cut out the
damaged section? Have you left any burrs at the end of the pipe - because
these, too, would stop an olive from going on easily.


No, it's definitely 15mm, or was!

I cut it with one of those pipe slices like this:

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/12468/...pe-Cutter-15mm

so there were no burrs. It wasn't just the olive, I couldn't get the
nut or the fitting on either.

By the way, how long should these pipe cutters last? I bought a Hilmor
one from B&Q a few years ago but the metal rollers rusted and seized
from getting wet in use.

I'm on my second now but I've noticed recently that sometimes the
cutter slips and it engraves a "corkscrew" on the pipe rather than
cutting it. I never had this with the first one. I changed the blade
but even with a new one it sometimes does this. I notice there is an
arrow on the body and I think this happens when you turn it against
the arrow.

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:45:18 +0100, John MacLeod
wrote:

Yes. I run a caravan site and have come across that problem frequently.

If so, what use are
these repair fittings?

Very little :-(

Thanks, that explains it.

Someone mentioned HDPE but I could only find MDPE, will that do? How
come that doesn't burst, are the walls very thick?

On Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:30:08 +0100, Stephen wrote:

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:45:18 +0100, John MacLeod
wrote:

Yes. I run a caravan site and have come across that problem frequently.

If so, what use are
these repair fittings?

Very little :-(

Thanks, that explains it.

Someone mentioned HDPE but I could only find MDPE, will that do? How
come that doesn't burst, are the walls very thick?

MDPE was used by Anglia Water to repipe our village. The engineer in charge
told me that it wasn't as good as HDPE but was adequate and cheaper.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.