Or to put it another way... Oh ****.

So, someone in the house has "faecal urgency" then they wash their hands
then they flush the loo. Then they shout... "The water's not going down
- and the pump's making a funny noise."

On a scale of 0 - 10 how far does your heart sink? Mine made it to the
MoHo.

I stared at it for an hour, wondering if there was any way I could get
out of this. Decided no, I was going to have to tackle it. Marigolds,
bucket, nose clip.

I decided that maybe the best thing to do would be to detach the
outlet[1] and see if the pump was working by attaching the outlet to a
hose and to a bucket. Flicked the switch on and... it worked fine. A bit
gag inducing but it worked fine and with a bit of effort and running to
the next (normal) loo the noxious contents were emptied out.

I thought that I'd shifted the blockage so I connected it up again and
tried a flush. No, it won't flush, it loks like the outlet tube is
blocked. I tried a pressure test with a handy pump and yes it's blocked
solid. It's 22mm PEX, seamless and without any elbows all the way to the
soil stack. So I'm puzzled by how it has managed to block. I don't have
anything suitable for rodding it at present so I think a trip to
Screwfix will have to be made tomorrow.

I really, really, hate Saniflos.



[1] You won't believe how glad I am that the outlet is downhill.

On 26 July, 23:50, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Or to put it another way... Oh ****.

So, someone in the house has "faecal urgency" then they wash their hands
then they flush the loo. Then they shout... "The water's not going down
- *and the pump's making a funny noise."

On a scale of 0 - 10 how far does your heart sink? Mine made it to the
MoHo.

I stared at it for an hour, wondering if there was any way I could get
out of this. Decided no, I was going to have to tackle it. Marigolds,
bucket, nose clip.

I decided that maybe the best thing to do would be to detach the
outlet[1] and see if the pump was working by attaching the outlet to a
hose and to a bucket. Flicked the switch on and... it worked fine. A bit
gag inducing but it worked fine and with a bit of effort and running to
the next (normal) loo the noxious contents were emptied out.

I thought that I'd shifted the blockage so I connected it up again and
tried a flush. No, it won't flush, it loks like the outlet tube is
blocked. I tried a pressure test with a handy pump and yes it's blocked
solid. It's 22mm PEX, seamless and without any elbows all the way to the
soil stack. So I'm puzzled by how it has managed to block. I don't have
anything suitable for rodding it at present so I think a trip to
Screwfix will have to be made tomorrow.

I really, really, hate Saniflos.

[1] You won't believe how glad I am that the outlet is downhill.

Sell the house.

On 27 July, 06:24, gunsmith wrote:

Sell the house.

If that's not possible:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Saniflo

What's the slope on the outlet pipe? Could there be a low point where
a buildup of debris has occurred? Or has someone flushed something
incompatible with a saniflo?

I'm in the process of installing one right now in a guest bedroom
ensuite (yes, I've heard all the issues, but it would have been a very
major piece of construction work to get gravity drainage to this
point).

I'm going to need a 3 metre lift followed by 7 metres of gravity
discharge (fits saniflo recommendations, 100:1 slope on gravity
portion).

I guess you'd recommend larger than 22m discharge pipe?

I'm planning on using 40mm solvent weld, though there will have to be
a few (at least 3) radius bends in that.

Any (sensible) advice from those with experience of what works best
for saniflo discharge pipes?

"RubberBiker" wrote in message
...
What's the slope on the outlet pipe? Could there be a low point where
a buildup of debris has occurred? Or has someone flushed something
incompatible with a saniflo?

I'm in the process of installing one right now in a guest bedroom
ensuite (yes, I've heard all the issues, but it would have been a very
major piece of construction work to get gravity drainage to this
point).

I'm going to need a 3 metre lift followed by 7 metres of gravity
discharge (fits saniflo recommendations, 100:1 slope on gravity
portion).

I guess you'd recommend larger than 22m discharge pipe?

I'm planning on using 40mm solvent weld, though there will have to be
a few (at least 3) radius bends in that.

Any (sensible) advice from those with experience of what works best
for saniflo discharge pipes?

I put one in my fathers house when he couldn't manage the stairs fast
enough.
32mm solvent welded pipe was used and it never blocked.
Don't forget to fit a screwed access pipe to the vertical bit or you will
have to catch a load of cr@p when you attempt to uncouple the outlet pipe.

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:20:22 -0700 (PDT), RubberBiker wrote:

I'm going to need a 3 metre lift...

Any (sensible) advice from those with experience of what works best
for saniflo discharge pipes?

Think about how you are going to deal with the, erm, "water" in the
section of pipe with the 3m lift when you need to disconnect it. 3m
of 40mm pipe contains about 4l. OK only a bucket full but it may well
arrive quite quickly and don't forget the contents of any length
before the lift.

The only thing I can think of is fitting a swept branch and a capping
off the branch. though I don't like the idea of this cap being under
0.3bar of crap all the time....

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:20:22 -0700 (PDT), RubberBiker wrote:

I'm going to need a 3 metre lift...

Any (sensible) advice from those with experience of what works best
for saniflo discharge pipes?

Think about how you are going to deal with the, erm, "water" in the
section of pipe with the 3m lift when you need to disconnect it. 3m
of 40mm pipe contains about 4l. OK only a bucket full but it may well
arrive quite quickly and don't forget the contents of any length
before the lift.

The only thing I can think of is fitting a swept branch and a capping
off the branch. though I don't like the idea of this cap being under
0.3bar of crap all the time....

I don't think these will have a problem with that sort of pressure

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/87263/...32mm-Pack-of-5

They are what I used.

--
Cheers
Dave.

I had thought about doing the lift pipe in 22 or 28mm barrier pipe,
then the gravity side in 40mm solvent weld.

As I see it, the lift side will always be "wet" so less likely to
block, it's easier to route with no fittings/connections (hence no
obvious point of failure), and there's a greater variety of drain-off
fittings available.

Other than flexi-fittings I can't think of anything to connect between
22/28mm and 40mm though.

OTOH, doing it with 40mm right the way through, means the most likely
blockage point will always be right at the non-return valve at the
exit of the saniflo unit - which I can ensure is accessible.

Steve - sorry to hijack your thread here on a sub-theme - but
hopefully it all adds to understanding the cause of your problems

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:53:59 -0700 (PDT), RubberBiker wrote:

As I see it, the lift side will always be "wet" so less likely to
block,

Except that any bits in the lift side will tend to settle down the
pipe when not being pumped...

OTOH, doing it with 40mm right the way through, means the most likely
blockage point will always be right at the non-return valve at the
exit of the saniflo unit - which I can ensure is accessible.

It also avoids too low a flow rate in the 40mm gravity part post
22/28 lift. To low a flow rate means bits don't get carried along
properly, too fast a flow rate and they get left behind....

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:50:53 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

I tried a pressure test with a handy pump and yes it's blocked
solid. It's 22mm PEX, seamless and without any elbows all the way to the
soil stack. So I'm puzzled by how it has managed to block.

Is it a straight run to the stack or are there any bends, you mention
no elbows but how about swept bends formed from the pipe, even large
radius ones?

If it's straight can you get at the stack connection? Perhaps a small
burr on the pipe end or fitting has collected enough bits of waste to
reduce the available exit area and a larger, more resiliant lump, has
come along and blocked it.

I wouldn't expect a blockage in a straight run of pipe but if there
are any bends a tough bit could and then collect loo roll around it
etc.

Had any female vistors recently that may be unaware of the trouble
that sanitory products can give to a saniflow? What's the wording of
the notice, something like: "Do not put anything down this toilet
that has not passed through you first."

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 27 July, 09:53, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:50:53 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:
I tried a pressure test with a handy pump and yes it's blocked
solid. It's 22mm PEX, seamless and without any elbows all the way to the
soil stack. So I'm puzzled by how it has managed to block.

Is it a straight run to the stack or are there any bends, you mention
no elbows but how about swept bends formed from the pipe, even large
radius ones?

If it's straight can you get at the stack connection? Perhaps a small
burr on the pipe end or fitting has collected enough bits of waste to
reduce the available exit area and a larger, more resiliant lump, has
come along and blocked it.

I wouldn't expect a blockage in a straight run of pipe but if there
are any bends a tough bit could and then collect loo roll around it
etc.

Had any female vistors recently that may be unaware of the trouble
that sanitory products can give to a saniflow? What's the wording of
the notice, something like: "Do not put anything down this toilet
that has not passed through you first."

--
Cheers
Dave.

Surely a capped drain valve or even better a full bore ball plug valve
fitted to the heel of the riser would make a sensible solution for the
emergencies?

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:53:40 +0100 (BST), Dave Liquorice wrote:

-------------------8
Had any female vistors recently that may be unaware of the trouble
that sanitory products can give to a saniflow? What's the wording of
the notice, something like: "Do not put anything down this toilet
that has not passed through you first."

Is it possible for a female to reach maturity without gaining an awareness
of such matters (even with a "conventional" toilet)?

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 06:59:00 +0100, Appelation Controlee wrote:

Is it possible for a female to reach maturity without gaining an
awareness of such matters (even with a "conventional" toilet)?

I should imagine so. Some people don't know that milk comes from
cows... Don't under estimate the stupidity of the population, just
look at what passes as news, entertainment or "interesting" stories
in the media these days.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Or to put it another way... Oh ****.

So, someone in the house has "faecal urgency" then they wash their hands
then they flush the loo. Then they shout... "The water's not going down
- and the pump's making a funny noise."

On a scale of 0 - 10 how far does your heart sink? Mine made it to the
MoHo.

I stared at it for an hour, wondering if there was any way I could get
out of this. Decided no, I was going to have to tackle it. Marigolds,
bucket, nose clip.

I decided that maybe the best thing to do would be to detach the
outlet[1] and see if the pump was working by attaching the outlet to a
hose and to a bucket. Flicked the switch on and... it worked fine. A bit
gag inducing but it worked fine and with a bit of effort and running to
the next (normal) loo the noxious contents were emptied out.

I thought that I'd shifted the blockage so I connected it up again and
tried a flush. No, it won't flush, it loks like the outlet tube is
blocked. I tried a pressure test with a handy pump and yes it's blocked
solid. It's 22mm PEX, seamless and without any elbows all the way to the
soil stack. So I'm puzzled by how it has managed to block. I don't have
anything suitable for rodding it at present so I think a trip to
Screwfix will have to be made tomorrow.

I really, really, hate Saniflos.



[1] You won't believe how glad I am that the outlet is downhill.


As it is 22mm pipe, could you assemble a connection to the hosepipe, and try
and push it all though with mains water pressure?

Toby...

On 27 July, 10:24, "Toby" wrote:

As it is 22mm pipe, could you assemble a connection to the hosepipe, and try
and push it all though with mains water pressure?

Great plan until it all goes wrong. One of my favourite plumbing
gadgets these days is a hand-pumped compressed air unblocker (so much
more grunt than a plunger), but even that can be "interesting" for
collateral damage and squirting sideways (I have a circle of tarpaulin
with a 1" hole in it as a "catcher" to go over the bowl)

As it's 22mm pipe, why not just seal the ends off, bury it in situ and
replace it with 40mm or at least 32mm? Saniflos are one thing, but a
Saniflo down 22mm pipe is really asking for it.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 27 July, 10:24, "Toby" wrote:

As it is 22mm pipe, could you assemble a connection to the hosepipe, and
try
and push it all though with mains water pressure?

Great plan until it all goes wrong. One of my favourite plumbing
gadgets these days is a hand-pumped compressed air unblocker (so much
more grunt than a plunger),

A plunger applies a vacuum not pressure.
It is designed to pull the blockage back up the pipe not force it down the
pipe.
I doubt if your pump applies more grunt to the pipe in the correct
direction.

dennis@home wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 27 July, 10:24, "Toby" wrote:

As it is 22mm pipe, could you assemble a connection to the
hosepipe, and try
and push it all though with mains water pressure?

Great plan until it all goes wrong. One of my favourite plumbing
gadgets these days is a hand-pumped compressed air unblocker (so much
more grunt than a plunger),

A plunger applies a vacuum not pressure.

Errm, no it doesn't.

It is designed to pull the blockage back up the pipe not force it
down the pipe.

Errm, no it isn't.

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/13894/...Bath-Unblocker

" Injects high pressure water. "

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/90321/...-Power-Plunger

"Creates shockwave in water to remove blockages."

Talking bollox again.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
dennis@home wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 27 July, 10:24, "Toby" wrote:

As it is 22mm pipe, could you assemble a connection to the
hosepipe, and try
and push it all though with mains water pressure?

Great plan until it all goes wrong. One of my favourite plumbing
gadgets these days is a hand-pumped compressed air unblocker (so much
more grunt than a plunger),

A plunger applies a vacuum not pressure.

Errm, no it doesn't.

Yes it does.


It is designed to pull the blockage back up the pipe not force it
down the pipe.

Errm, no it isn't.

It does.
It being a plunger like I said!


http://www.screwfix.com/prods/13894/...Bath-Unblocker

This not being a plunger!


" Injects high pressure water. "

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/90321/...-Power-Plunger

"Creates shockwave in water to remove blockages."

Talking bollox again.

Yes you are!
You always talk bollox but you are too bloody stupid to understand you are
talking bollox even when you are told you are!



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman

Too bloody quick at trying to point out where I have it wrong to bother
reading what the post says and making a fool of himself again!
As I have told you many times, read the post and think before you make
yourself look like an idiot!

On 27 July, 12:19, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message

Great plan until it all goes wrong. *One of my favourite plumbing
gadgets these days is a hand-pumped compressed air unblocker (so much
more grunt than a plunger),

A plunger applies a vacuum not pressure.

Whilst I'd agree that a plunger creates a vacuum, this is of extremely
limited volume and the most you can hope for is that it "shakes a
blockage loose", rather than sucking it bodily backwards into the
sink / bowl. It creates both in turn, as you thrutch it back and
forth. The old rubber Dalek plungers could raise some vacuum (stiffer
cup sprang back better) the modern softer plastic concertinas are
rubbish for it.

As I wrote, the pre-pumped unblocker has far more grunt. Of course
it's not going to work into a tapering conical pipe, but then that's
an installation problem just waiting to happen. No-one would be fool
enough to to plumb that way, except possibly Steve for reasons of
tradition and his (I'm sure) slavish obedience to official rulings.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 27 July, 12:19, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message

Great plan until it all goes wrong. One of my favourite plumbing
gadgets these days is a hand-pumped compressed air unblocker (so much
more grunt than a plunger),

A plunger applies a vacuum not pressure.

Whilst I'd agree that a plunger creates a vacuum, this is of extremely
limited volume and the most you can hope for is that it "shakes a
blockage loose", rather than sucking it bodily backwards into the
sink / bowl. It creates both in turn, as you thrutch it back and
forth. The old rubber Dalek plungers could raise some vacuum (stiffer
cup sprang back better) the modern softer plastic concertinas are
rubbish for it.

I have a fairly old rubber plunger that you have to warm slightly before it
will seal on the suction side.
Its too stiff to seal in winter when the water is only a few degrees.
It will quite easily pull stuff back out of the trap into the bowl.
You really don't want any forward pressure as that will just compress the
blockage into whatever is causing it to stick in the first place and that
may just make it worse.
Then you have to get the sticks out and start poking at stuff.


As I wrote, the pre-pumped unblocker has far more grunt. Of course
it's not going to work into a tapering conical pipe, but then that's
an installation problem just waiting to happen. No-one would be fool
enough to to plumb that way, except possibly Steve for reasons of
tradition and his (I'm sure) slavish obedience to official rulings.

I find stuff usually gets stuck at elbows or in the traps, seldom in the
pipes.

I have a particular problem with wax getting in the bathroom sink, but one
day she will be too old to wax or have left.
Its easy to deal with, just use the plunger to suck it up into the sink,
wipe it around with loo roll and flush it BTW.
I wouldn't be able to do that using a pump like screwfix sell.


TMH will be along in a bit to add a few abusive words BTW.

Andy Dingley wrote:

As it's 22mm pipe, why not just seal the ends off, bury it in situ and
replace it with 40mm or at least 32mm?

Because it's a listed building and there's nowhere to run either 32 or
40mm. There would be no need to seal it and leave it, it could be
removed fairly easily. Any replacement would have to be threaded through
voids and down through an airing cupboard then have to negotiated some
tricky curves to the soil stack. The 22mm pipe takes a relatively easy
route and doesn't need elbows.

Saniflos are one thing, but a Saniflo down 22mm pipe is really asking for
it.

This is an old Saniflo, installed in 1993. Back then they only had 22mm
outlets.

The problem seems to be one of "something that a Saniflo doesn't like",
in this case, examing the contents of the bucket it seems to be a paper
tissue that's slightly more resistant than loo paper. I suspect it's
tangled somewhere in the tube.

On 27 July, 12:22, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
As it's 22mm pipe, why not just seal the ends off, bury it in situ and
replace it with 40mm or at least 32mm?

Because it's a listed building and there's nowhere to run either 32 or
40mm. *

Can't believe you can't fit 32mm anywhere you've already fitted 22mm,
even if you have to use a bend radius that's much less than you'd
otherwise choose.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 27 July, 12:22, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
As it's 22mm pipe, why not just seal the ends off, bury it in situ and
replace it with 40mm or at least 32mm?

Because it's a listed building and there's nowhere to run either 32 or
40mm.

Can't believe you can't fit 32mm anywhere you've already fitted 22mm,
even if you have to use a bend radius that's much less than you'd
otherwise choose.

You can believe what you like, but unless you had actually visited the
site and had the discussions with the LBO then I suggest that you're
blowing it out of your arse. There's a restriction on the size of hole
that can be made in the wall - there's currently room for a 22mm pipe -
but to add either 32mm or 40mm would mean removal of five 300 year old
bricks. The LBO doesn't approve that change.

That apart, the pipe run suits itself to gentle curves, but if rigid
32/40mm tube were used there would be eight elbow bends to negotiate the
same route. And, as I pointed out before, the Saniflo doesn't have a
32mm outlet nor a 40mm outlet, it has a 22mm outlet.

Getting permission for installation of the lavatory was difficult enough
as it was and was only given when I pointed out that the outlet coudl be
run to an existing soil stack if we were very careful with the
installation. I must have missed your presence at the meetings.

Toby wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote:

I really, really, hate Saniflos.

As it is 22mm pipe, could you assemble a connection to the hosepipe, and
try and push it all though with mains water pressure?

Hopefully I never drink any water from anywhere near *your* house ...

Andy Burns wrote:

Toby wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote:

I really, really, hate Saniflos.

As it is 22mm pipe, could you assemble a connection to the hosepipe, and
try and push it all though with mains water pressure?

Hopefully I never drink any water from anywhere near *your* house ...

Cleared it with a one of those long springy drain clearing things from
Toolstation £7.50 plus the petrol to go get one. It seemed to just be
compacted toilet tissue, about 12ft from the Saniflo.

On Jul 27, 11:11*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:

Hopefully I never drink any water from anywhere near *your* house ...

Cleared it with a one of those long springy drain clearing things from
Toolstation £7.50 plus the petrol to go get one. It seemed to just be
compacted toilet tissue, about 12ft from the Saniflo.

A friend of mine who lives in basement flat has a 15 year old-ish
saniflo as only means of WC [1].
The other day he called to say it wasn't flushing and was backing up
into the nearby shower could I help? I suggested he try changing
the fuse, which ironically had been a whopping 13amp, given the motor
rating was a mear 850w. Anyway, he googled saniflo repairs and found a
local chap who would do a repair for £130 and said 'it would be the
condensor'. The chap attended and found it was actually the motor
burnt out and he took away the unit to replace the motor for total
price of £175. He also put a NRV on the inlet from the shower to
prevent nasty backups there happening again. The discharge pipe is
22mm copper which has a rise of 8ft before a gradient of 24ft to the
soil stack.

I personally didn't think that seemed like a bad price (danger money)
given that not many people actually want to go near a saniflo or fear
for doing a number 2 into one.

Could discarded cotton/dental floss or a wet wipe cause a motor burn
out as thats what he think killed it. I reminded him of the danger of
putting anything into the bowl other than bodily fluids or toilet
paper. Perhaps also the higher quality toilet paper also has a
blocking effect. Would the OP say what make he uses? I think a 5amp
fuse would also be more appropriate if the motor stalls in future.

Can anyone add to the list of typical items flushed down a loo by
idiots that would cause saniflow to die rather than saying anything
other than bodily fluids/loo paper? It would at least give people
something to read whilst on the throne;

Kitchen roll, chewing gum, cotton wool, cotton buds, condoms, nappies,
Jay cloths, fag butts, rizzlas, any sort of rags, dental floss, cotton
strands from clothes, cat/dog/personal hairs/furballs, cardboard,
paper clippings, any sort of plastic wrappers, water with grit/sand/
soil/fluff in it, anything with Wipes in name, eg Wet wipes, toilet
wipes, cleaning wipes, large quantities of toilet roll in one session,
wadded/compacted toilet roll, sweets, coins, paints, DIY waste, food/
bones.....

When you read that list it kinda makes you feel sorry for the sewage
plants that deal with that stuff all the time :S


[1] Would that be acceptable to todays standards if being converted to
flats?

Dave Starling wrote:

Could discarded cotton/dental floss or a wet wipe cause a motor burn
out as thats what he think killed it.

Easily. The Saniflo blades are unfit for purpose and the motor hasn't
enough torque for the job. Dental floss or even cotton fibres are too
strong for the Saniflo to cope with.

I reminded him of the danger of
putting anything into the bowl other than bodily fluids or toilet
paper. Perhaps also the higher quality toilet paper also has a
blocking effect. Would the OP say what make he uses?

Whatever seems a reasonable price at the time, but never the cheapest
stuff because that's just awful. It tends to be Kleenex/Andrex or the
Cash and Carry own brand which is similar quality.

[snip]

Can anyone add to the list of typical items flushed down a loo by
idiots that would cause saniflow to die

When we bought the Saniflo it came with a sticker to apply to the
cistern listing all the things that must not go down the bowl. Chewing
gum, bottle caps, razor blades, sanitary items, wound dressings and
paper handkerchiefs were on the list.

rather than saying anything
other than bodily fluids/loo paper? It would at least give people
something to read whilst on the throne;

They'd have to have a head like an owl to read the Saniflo list pasted
to the cistern.
[snip]

When you read that list it kinda makes you feel sorry for the sewage
plants that deal with that stuff all the time :S

I've taken a couple of trips to sewage works. The automatic scrapers
pulling stuff out that people flush down lavatories bring up an
impressive range of stuff. Mostly condoms but there's other stuff in
there.

[1] Would that be acceptable to todays standards if being converted to
flats?

Definitely not.

Part G (...a macerator may be used if...) "there is also access to a
closet discharging directly to a gravity system"

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Dave Starling wrote:

Perhaps also the higher quality toilet paper also has a blocking effect.
Would the OP say what make he uses?

Test the paper. Get a jam jar, half fill with water, pop in a few
sheets of the prospective paper and give it a very brief shake. If
the paper has not fallen apart it's to tough.

It's easier to list what is allowed down a saniflow than what isn't.

--
Cheers
Dave.