I had a shower fitted by a 'proper' electrician last December. The PRD went
so the manufactuerer sent me a new PRD to self fit which I have done.

I have 2 questions

Does the unit need to be sealed with silicon after I have done it? The guy
who installed it put silicon down one side but not all around, he said it
was sealed anyway
The actual installation guidelines say dont seal:

Aqualisa quartz electric =
http://www.aqualisa.co.uk/upload/INSTALLATION%20GU...

--

Secondly the wiring looks a bit shoddy to me- below are some links to some
pictures, can anyone give me an opinion on wether they think they are safe
or not?


http://img248.imageshack.us/i/img0557x.jpg/
http://img33.imageshack.us/i/img0558y.jpg/
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/img0559h.jpg/
http://img30.imageshack.us/i/img0560f.jpg/

Thoughts?

Quick rpelies appreciated as I can phone up an electrician if needed for
tonight.

"mo" wrote in message
...
I had a shower fitted by a 'proper' electrician last December. The PRD went
so the manufactuerer sent me a new PRD to self fit which I have done.

I have 2 questions

Does the unit need to be sealed with silicon after I have done it? The guy
who installed it put silicon down one side but not all around, he said it
was sealed anyway
The actual installation guidelines say dont seal:

Aqualisa quartz electric =
http://www.aqualisa.co.uk/upload/INSTALLATION%20GU...

--

Secondly the wiring looks a bit shoddy to me- below are some links to some
pictures, can anyone give me an opinion on wether they think they are safe
or not?


http://img248.imageshack.us/i/img0557x.jpg/
http://img33.imageshack.us/i/img0558y.jpg/
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/img0559h.jpg/
http://img30.imageshack.us/i/img0560f.jpg/

Thoughts?

Quick rpelies appreciated as I can phone up an electrician if needed for
tonight.

Follow the manufacturers instructions regarding the silicon. ie do not
silicon

I assume that your shower was not a full installation but just a shower swap
given that the cables are red and black. Your photos suggest that the person
that fitted the shower was not an electrician but a first class tosser who
should not be allowed to trade as an electrician.

My advice is that if you cannot DIY the electrical safety of the shower then
you should get an electrician in that can help you. Do not phone the guy
that installed the shower.

Adam

mo wrote:

I have 2 questions

Does the unit need to be sealed with silicon after I have done it? The

No.

Secondly the wiring looks a bit shoddy to me- below are some links to
some pictures, can anyone give me an opinion on wether they think they
are safe or not?


http://img248.imageshack.us/i/img0557x.jpg/
http://img33.imageshack.us/i/img0558y.jpg/
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/img0559h.jpg/
http://img30.imageshack.us/i/img0560f.jpg/

Thoughts?

He got the right wires in the right holes - but that is about the end of
anything that could be said to commend it. Leaving lengths of
uninsulated wire sticking out of the terminals is poor workmanship. The
earth should be sleeved, and tile grout (or worse silicone) in not known
for its electrical resistance lowering properties!

If there is enough spare cable there, I would be tempted to remake the
connections properly having stripped back to some slightly less grotty
looking wires. If not, then at least remove the wires from the
terminals, check there is no contamination on the contact surfaces,
clean, twist, and sleeve that earth and then put them all back making
sure the screws are done up very tight.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:35:12 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

mo wrote:

I have 2 questions

Does the unit need to be sealed with silicon after I have done it? The

No.

Secondly the wiring looks a bit shoddy to me- below are some links to
some pictures, can anyone give me an opinion on wether they think they
are safe or not?


http://img248.imageshack.us/i/img0557x.jpg/
http://img33.imageshack.us/i/img0558y.jpg/
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/img0559h.jpg/
http://img30.imageshack.us/i/img0560f.jpg/

Thoughts?

He got the right wires in the right holes - but that is about the end of
anything that could be said to commend it. Leaving lengths of
uninsulated wire sticking out of the terminals is poor workmanship. The
earth should be sleeved, and tile grout (or worse silicone) in not known
for its electrical resistance lowering properties!

If there is enough spare cable there, I would be tempted to remake the
connections properly having stripped back to some slightly less grotty
looking wires. If not, then at least remove the wires from the
terminals, check there is no contamination on the contact surfaces,
clean, twist, and sleeve that earth and then put them all back making
sure the screws are done up very tight.

I'm no electrician but I installed my own elec shower and would be
ashamed to do that sort of work ..Is there a cable clamp missing as
well.? Is that evidence of an old clamp mark at the E in England ?





--
Any posting using my name and/or e-mail address
but other than by newsindividual.net is not being posted by me and should be disregarded .
Remove NOSPAM to reply by e-mail

Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire should be
covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried me.

I will get the original electrician to pay for repairs or take the bugger to
court!


In answer to the other question from Andy - yes it was a swap as we used an
existing wire - i spose its an old one?

Cheers

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:20 +0100, "mo" wrote:

Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire should be
covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried me.

I will get the original electrician to pay for repairs or take the bugger to
court!


In answer to the other question from Andy - yes it was a swap as we used an
existing wire - i spose its an old one?

Cheers

Is the new shower the same or a higher rating than the previous one ?
.....if higher ask the electrician about the suitabilty of the
existing cable .





--
Any posting using my name and/or e-mail address
but other than by newsindividual.net is not being posted by me and should be disregarded .
Remove NOSPAM to reply by e-mail

mo wrote:
I had a shower fitted by a 'proper' electrician last December. The
PRD went so the manufactuerer sent me a new PRD to self fit which I
have done.

In the words of Jim Royal:

"Electrician, my arse!"

Surely he shouldn't be allowed to trade if he thinks that's a good
connection, esp in something with such a large current rating as a shower.

Shocking.

Stuart B wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:20 +0100, "mo" wrote:

Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire should be
covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried me.

I will get the original electrician to pay for repairs or take the bugger to
court!


In answer to the other question from Andy - yes it was a swap as we used an
existing wire - i spose its an old one?

Cheers

Is the new shower the same or a higher rating than the previous one ?
....if higher ask the electrician about the suitabilty of the
existing cable .

It looks like 6mm^2 and the shower is 8.7kW - so just under 38A nominal
load. Assuming its not buried in anything insulating, ought to be ok.
However it does depend on the length etc.

I would also want to check over the protective devices and make sure
those are ok for the circuit and will meet the required disconnection
times. Also check the main and supplementary bonding is up to scratch.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"mo" wrote in message
...
I had a shower fitted by a 'proper' electrician last December. The PRD went
so the manufactuerer sent me a new PRD to self fit which I have done.

I have 2 questions

Thoughts?


Yes, don't use abbreviations as they mean different things to
different people - so there is no clear way what you refer to.

Quick rpelies appreciated as I can phone up an electrician if needed for
tonight.

Why not phone and get one to answer your question? That is the only
way you can verify advice given by unknown people in a newsgroup.

On Jul 26, 6:01*pm, "mo" wrote:
Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire should be
covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried me.

it shold be these days, but its entirely trivial


I will get the original electrician to pay for repairs or take the bugger to
court!

what a waste of time


NT

John Rumm wrote:

It looks like 6mm^2 and the shower is 8.7kW - so just under 38A nominal

Sorry to reply to my own post, just looked again at that picture - its
actually a 9.5kW at 240V... only adds a small amount to the current though.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"mo" wrote in message
...
Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire should be
covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried me.

I will get the original electrician to pay for repairs or take the bugger
to
court!


In answer to the other question from Andy - yes it was a swap as we used
an
existing wire - i spose its an old one?

Cheers

I can't wait to see you try! One company will not give a statement
about another and the first installation is NOT unsafe if the cover is
fitted correctly. A piece of sleeving will make NO difference to the
earth connection.
You seem to be either paranoid or an idiot.

"Clive" wrote in message
...

Why not phone and get one to answer your question? That is the only
way you can verify advice given by unknown people in a newsgroup.



I have thanks. he confirmed that it should have been covered. Whether or not
it was something that HAS to be done legally is what I will ask tomorrow and
whether or not it was reasonable to leave it in that condition or not.

"Clive" wrote in message
...


I can't wait to see you try! One company will not give a statement
about another and the first installation is NOT unsafe if the cover is
fitted correctly. A piece of sleeving will make NO difference to the
earth connection.
You seem to be either paranoid or an idiot.



don't you think its reasonable for the avg person to be paranoid about a
bare wire in a shower when they don't know what it could mean? taking into
account how shoddy the whole thing looks?

I am more than competent i can get the money back *if* the work was not
carried out to a reasonable standard, if the electrician tomorrow just says
it was not great but not seriously bad then i wont bother.

Get a life.

Clive wrote:
"mo" wrote in message
...
Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire
should be covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried
me. I will get the original electrician to pay for repairs or take the
bugger to
court!


In answer to the other question from Andy - yes it was a swap as we
used an
existing wire - i spose its an old one?

Cheers

I can't wait to see you try! One company will not give a statement
about another and the first installation is NOT unsafe if the cover is
fitted correctly. A piece of sleeving will make NO difference to the
earth connection.
You seem to be either paranoid or an idiot.

Ignore Clive, he is a well known ****wit around here.

I install the odd shower, only ever like for like. I wouldn't leave wiring
like that, neutral isn't in the terminal properly, earth should have
sleeving. Its sloppy.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 26 July, 19:30, "mo" wrote:
I have thanks. he confirmed that it should have been covered. Whether or not
it was something that HAS to be done legally is what I will ask tomorrow and
whether or not it was reasonable to leave it in that condition or not.

It does have to be done legally. Part P of the Building Regulations
refers to the IEE Wiring Regulations, and the Wiring Regs require
earth conductors in cables to be sleeved and identified green/yellow
at the terminations.

Like-for-like replacement of a shower is not notifiable ie you do not
have to involve Building Control, but compliance with the other
requirements of Part P still applies.

What else has the **** got wrong that you haven't discovered yet?

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On 26 July, 19:30, "mo" wrote:
I have thanks. he confirmed that it should have been covered. Whether or
not
it was something that HAS to be done legally is what I will ask tomorrow
and
whether or not it was reasonable to leave it in that condition or not.

It does have to be done legally. Part P of the Building Regulations
refers to the IEE Wiring Regulations, and the Wiring Regs require
earth conductors in cables to be sleeved and identified green/yellow
at the terminations.

Like-for-like replacement of a shower is not notifiable ie you do not
have to involve Building Control, but compliance with the other
requirements of Part P still applies.

What else has the **** got wrong that you haven't discovered yet?

Owain

Well, this guy is local auth approved, not some random cowboy (you'd think!)

I had an issue with the pipework he put in as it was slightly too long and
doesn't bend round properly!

What I will probably do is see what the electrician says, and if it is
sloppy as I think then I will write to the trader asking him to pay for
remedial work.

Actually, when you get down to technicalities remember:

Electrician registered with Part P scheme...
- Works do not have to comply with BS7671
- Works merely have to be "safe" in their view

Engineer who wrote BS7671, DIYer or non Part-P elec...
- Works must comply with BS7671 (incl competency, right materials etc)
- Works should comply with AD "P" w.r.t. Notifiable or Non-Notifiable

If unhappy with a Part P registered spark take it up with the scheme
provider. Could be the electrician used is a 5-day DI.

You would only take an electrician to court if...
- They installed 6mm CSA wiring through insulation and a 10.5kW shower
- ie, the installation is unlikely to be fit for purpose

You would not take an electrician to court if...
- They installed a LONG run of 10mm CSA wiring to a 10.5kW shower AND
voltage drop exceeded that permitted
- ie, the electrician will argue shower's operation whilst slightly
diminished will still function "reasonably"

To the OP, the problem with silicone/grout is corrosion of the
terminals which in turn will create heating - damaging both the shower
and the wiring to the shower. Something to remember when installing
showers is where at all possible to conduit/trunking the cable in
place (min 25mm) to avoid hacking tiles apart. Not always easy in
tight bathrooms, but a lot better than "cable ends too short/
knackered", job becomes "rip apart the shower enclosure, tiles".

On 26 July, 18:54, NT wrote:
On Jul 26, 6:01*pm, "mo" wrote:

Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire should be
covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried me.

it shold be these days, but its entirely trivial

The thing that worries me is that electric showers have become more
powerful in recent years, sufficiently so that old cable sizing is
very often no longer adequate.

The guy who installed this was obviously slapdash, so did he check the
cable sizing too? That part isn't a trivial hazard.

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:19:37 +0100, "mo" wrote:


What I will probably do is see what the electrician says, and if it is
sloppy as I think then I will write to the trader asking him to pay for
remedial work.

Unless you have given him an opportunity to rectify any defects you
don't have much of a legal case to ask him to pay for someone else to
do it. (You would if he cocked up the second attempt as well - but
not for the first).

Clive wrote:

fitted correctly. A piece of sleeving will make NO difference to the
earth connection.
You seem to be either paranoid or an idiot.

Why I have no desire to feed the troll, I will just shoot him down here
on the off chance someone takes his comments seriously.

The presence or otherwise of the earth sleeving in this particular
circumstance is unlikely to result in any major problem in itself.
However the absence of it, coupled with the generally sloppy standard of
work, poor termination, and some contaminant being splodged all over the
place, does cause concern. It indicates that the installer was slapdash,
and was not paying much attention to detail. Neither was he concerned
with doing a professional job. Now that *is* the concern - what else has
been missed?

Did he provide a minor works certificate for the work?
If not, did he test it?
Did he upgrade the fuse / MCB to cope with a higher power shower?
If so did he re-do the calculations?
Do we know the disconnection time requirements will be met in the event
of a fault?
Do we know if the earth fault loop impedance is low enough for the cable
length and type of protective device?
If it relies on a RCD for additional protection, do we know if this was
tested with the correct equipment?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"mo" wrote in message
...


"Clive" wrote in message
...

Why not phone and get one to answer your question? That is the only
way you can verify advice given by unknown people in a newsgroup.



I have thanks. he confirmed that it should have been covered. Whether or
not it was something that HAS to be done legally is what I will ask
tomorrow and whether or not it was reasonable to leave it in that
condition or not.
General view - Unfortunately, electric showers and the way they are sold
makes them very appealing to a very wide market - some of whom will be less
than qualified to install them properly

Guy has come around and fixed the wires, re-cut them and put them on much
closer so nothing is exposed, feel more comfortable now the green/yellow
sleeving is on!

Will decide what to do later!

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
I install the odd shower, only ever like for like. I wouldn't leave
wiring like that, neutral isn't in the terminal properly, earth should
have sleeving. Its sloppy.

It is untidy - but the actual connections could be OK.

--
*Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
mo wrote:
Well, this guy is local auth approved, not some random cowboy (you'd
think!)

I had an issue with the pipework he put in as it was slightly too long
and doesn't bend round properly!

At one time plumber/electricians were common. Not sure about now. Wonder
if he had the appropriate qualifications?

--
*If you remember the '60s, you weren't really there

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Jul 26, 10:21*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 26 July, 18:54, NT wrote:

On Jul 26, 6:01*pm, "mo" wrote:

Got an electrician coming tomorrow - he confirmed that the wire should be
covered in green and yellow which was the bit that worried me.

it shold be these days, but its entirely trivial

The thing that worries me is that electric showers have become more
powerful in recent years, sufficiently so that old cable sizing is
very often no longer adequate.

The guy who installed this was obviously slapdash, so did he check the
cable sizing too? *That part isn't a trivial hazard.

cable sizes & current ratings:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Cables


NT

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On 26 July, 21:29, "js.b1" wrote:
Actually, when you get down to technicalities remember:
Electrician registered with Part P scheme...
- Works do not have to comply with BS7671
- Works merely have to be "safe" in their view

I disagree. Part P is the law, it specifies BS7671, although BS7671 is
not mandatory an equivalent standard of safety is.

You would only take an electrician to court if...
- They installed 6mm CSA wiring through insulation and a 10.5kW shower
- ie, the installation is unlikely to be fit for purpose

The customer is entitled to the work to be carried out to a reasonable
standard of care and professionalism. As Part P is a legal requirement
that would be the minimum standard expected. If the work doesn't
comply with Building Regs then it's illegal.

Why would electrical work be illegal when other work is not?
Building regs are the easy way to show the work is to an acceptable standard
but you can do it in other ways if you show that it is safe and does what is
required.

On Jul 27, 12:22*pm, Owain wrote:
On 26 July, 21:29, "js.b1" wrote:

Actually, when you get down to technicalities remember:
Electrician registered with Part P scheme...
- Works do not have to comply with BS7671
- Works merely have to be "safe" in their view

I disagree. Part P is the law, it specifies BS7671, although BS7671 is
not mandatory an equivalent standard of safety is.

Therein is the rub - "an equivalent standard of safety".

The legal requirement P1...
Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of
electrical installations in order to protect persons operating,
maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

The practical reality...
The first thing any court will do is compare to BS7671.
In particular use (say) ESC PIR coding re Code 4-3-2-1.


With wall lights I do the following...
- Sink a PVC 20mm round conduit (besa) box into the wall
- Run oval/conduit to it
- Wago lever-clip 222-412 222-413 the terminals
- Fit the box lid with 20mm hole & 20mm grommet
- Crimp earth to any wall light mounting screw in box
- http://tinypic.com/r/20kooz7/3

(Loose wall light screw moved decades ago up the wall went thro the
cable BUT the "polyfilla hole, add screw, let set" had left the screw
insulated from the now damaged L&N by polyfilla... now imagine the
screw working loose. Temporary Jn Box above & 6491X back to CU.
http://tinypic.com/r/2j0fkfm/3 and http://tinypic.com/r/vo244i/3 for
the original pictures).

For showers leave out the terminals, use PVC 25mm besa box, easier to
loop cables out re L-E-N arrangement & bend radius, easier to replace
cables should the need arise re damage terminals or undersized cable.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Clive" saying
something like:

I can't wait to see you try! One company will not give a statement
about another and the first installation is NOT unsafe if the cover is
fitted correctly. A piece of sleeving will make NO difference to the
earth connection.
You seem to be either paranoid or an idiot.

But you're an arsehole, so that trumps everything.

Long story short

The trader is going to reimburse me almost £300 to replace the shower and
fit new pipe work (as there was another issue at hand but not quite as
serious).

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:34:39 +0100, mo wrote:

The trader is going to reimburse me almost £300 to replace the shower
and fit new pipe work (as there was another issue at hand but not quite
as serious).

Though you said he had gone bust? Have you got the nice crisp £20
notes in your pocket, don't take a cheque or a promise to pay "next
week".

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:34:39 +0100, mo wrote:

The trader is going to reimburse me almost £300 to replace the shower
and fit new pipe work (as there was another issue at hand but not quite
as serious).


He was a sole trader, so still liable.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On 1 Aug, 23:27, "mo" wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote
The trader is going to reimburse me almost £300 to replace the shower
and fit new pipe work (as there was another issue at hand but not
quite
as serious).
Though you said he had gone bust? Have you got the nice crisp £20
notes in your pocket, don't take a cheque or a promise to pay "next
week".
He was a sole trader, so still liable.

But not necessarily still solvent.

And can we ask how much you paid him for the shower in the first place
or was it included with other works?

Owain

120 for installation and 180 for the cost of the shower (i bought myself) -
he has agreed to reimburse me for both as he did some poor pipe work and he
damaged the shower a little.

Yes, luckily he was still solvent, from what i understand he has stopped
doing plumbing/electrical work now. sounds like he got too many complaints
and was happy to pay me off to get rid of me.