Hi,

Just made up a new door casing:

http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0036.jpg.html
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0034.jpg.html

Question 1:

It occurs to me that 20mm might be a bit on the thin side. This isn't a
killer problem - I can EVA some PAR softwood on the back to increase the
thickness.

I don't really know the properties of oak - is 20mm thick enough to hang
door hinges on or shall I proceed to bond/screw an 18mm PAR layer on the
back before fitting to the wall?


Question 2:

What's the name of the tool that you use to extract little wood plugs from
scrap - that the plugs can be used to plug fixing holes later? Do you use a
really small holesaw or is there actually a special widget?

Ta

Tim

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
What's the name of the tool that you use to extract little wood plugs
from scrap - that the plugs can be used to plug fixing holes later? Do
you use a really small holesaw or is there actually a special widget?

Plug cutter. It produces a tapered plug with a radiused bottom. Missus. ;-)
Screwfix do sets which will cover most screw head sizes for not a lot.

--
*Eschew obfuscation *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim S wrote:
Hi,

Just made up a new door casing:

http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0036.jpg.html
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0034.jpg.html

Question 1:

It occurs to me that 20mm might be a bit on the thin side. This isn't
a killer problem - I can EVA some PAR softwood on the back to
increase the thickness.

Use possibly as a last resort - and if you do, you could use the frame
packings (behind the fixings) to help hold this in place while the glue is
drying.

Also, remember *NOT* to use steel or iron fixings in oak, as the tannic acid
in it will rust them (even under the plugs that you intend to use) - use
non-ferrous fixing of your choice (usually brass)

I don't really know the properties of oak - is 20mm thick enough to
hang door hinges on or shall I proceed to bond/screw an 18mm PAR
layer on the back before fitting to the wall?

If you are only using a light (egg crate) internal door, then 20mm will be
enough (try and slip a piece of packing behind the frame where the hinges
will go just in case [his can be skew-screwed through the edge of the
packing into the frame using *brass* screws if you want to make sure]).

If you are using a heavier door, I would suggest that you revert to your
'plan A' with the PAR without question. BTW a 'normal' lining would be some
35mm thick.

Question 2:

What's the name of the tool that you use to extract little wood plugs
from scrap - that the plugs can be used to plug fixing holes later?
Do you use a really small holesaw or is there actually a special
widget?

A plug cutter (choose the diameter that fits the head of the screw) - if you
go to the dreaded B&Q, you will be able to buy a set that consists of the
plug cutter, and a combined pilot drill and countersink to suit the diameter
of the plug to give a neater finish. Remember to cut the plugs from the
scraps of the lining that you have used - and take care when you fit them,
to get the grain of the plug running the right way to get the best finish).

As usual, someone may come along with a better idea, but I hope this helps


Cash

"Tim S" wrote in message
.. .
Hi,

Just made up a new door casing:

http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0036.jpg.html
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0034.jpg.html

Question 1:

It occurs to me that 20mm might be a bit on the thin side. This isn't a
killer problem - I can EVA some PAR softwood on the back to increase the
thickness.

I don't really know the properties of oak - is 20mm thick enough to hang
door hinges on or shall I proceed to bond/screw an 18mm PAR layer on the
back before fitting to the wall?


If you fit more fixings with packing behind the casing the wall will support
it and keep it rigid.



Question 2:

What's the name of the tool that you use to extract little wood plugs from
scrap - that the plugs can be used to plug fixing holes later? Do you use
a
really small holesaw or is there actually a special widget?

Its a plug cutter
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe.../sd1400/p72650

Ta

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Hi,

Just made up a new door casing:

http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0036.jpg.html
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0034.jpg.html

Question 1:

It occurs to me that 20mm might be a bit on the thin side. This isn't a
killer problem - I can EVA some PAR softwood on the back to increase the
thickness.

I don't really know the properties of oak - is 20mm thick enough to hang
door hinges on or shall I proceed to bond/screw an 18mm PAR layer on the
back before fitting to the wall?

It should be plenty - especially when fixed in place and the architraves
are on to add some weight.

Fix the boards in the centre with packers behind.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ing_the_lining

That leaves scope for fine tuning the appearance with a few wedges later
if you need to.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...penny_ joints

Question 2:

What's the name of the tool that you use to extract little wood plugs from
scrap - that the plugs can be used to plug fixing holes later? Do you use a
really small holesaw or is there actually a special widget?

There is a widget called a plug cutter. Use it in a drill press to make
plugs etc.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe.../sd1400/p72650

(TS part no 72650)

Note that most of the main fixings can be hidden behind the door stops
anyway. So its only the fixings in the stops you may need to hide.
(assuming you are not painting). A few lost head nails usually sort the
architraves. (take care not to use something that will stain the oak)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Cash wrote:

Also, remember *NOT* to use steel or iron fixings in oak, as the tannic acid
in it will rust them (even under the plugs that you intend to use) - use
non-ferrous fixing of your choice (usually brass)

Dry oak indoors will not corrode screws. Not in your lifetime, anyway,
use galvanized under plugs.

20mm of oak is tougher than 50mm of softwood.

Thanks John and everyone else.

The Screwfix plug cutters seem to have dire reviews so I'm off to
Axminster - but thanks for the pointers, at least I knew what to search
for

Thanks for the other info regarding oak. As one frame is for the bathroom,
I'll play it safe with stainless steel screws (they don't make brass long
enough for this particular fixing).

I liked the wiki on door framing - have loads of plastic packers so I'll use
these largely - but I can cut wedges too from scrap. My Metabo sliding
mitre saw is cutting very nicely with a nice new fine toothed TCT blade.

One of the door frames has an oversized hole in the wall so I'll have to
pack this one with extra wood - I'll pack it on the hinge side for good
measure.

BTW and OT - noticed that Toolstation have some interesting low expansion
foam for celotex board fixing - I'll pick up some on the way and try it
out.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Thanks John and everyone else.

The Screwfix plug cutters seem to have dire reviews so I'm off to
Axminster - but thanks for the pointers, at least I knew what to search
for

Thanks for the other info regarding oak. As one frame is for the bathroom,
I'll play it safe with stainless steel screws (they don't make brass long
enough for this particular fixing).

I liked the wiki on door framing - have loads of plastic packers so I'll use
these largely - but I can cut wedges too from scrap. My Metabo sliding
mitre saw is cutting very nicely with a nice new fine toothed TCT blade.

One of the door frames has an oversized hole in the wall so I'll have to
pack this one with extra wood - I'll pack it on the hinge side for good
measure.

BTW and OT - noticed that Toolstation have some interesting low expansion
foam for celotex board fixing - I'll pick up some on the way and try it
out.

Cheers

Tim

IME the TS "low expansion" foam goes all over the shop, just like the
standard stuff. You don't get the smooth delivery you would from a
cartridge type product so it's a bit hit and miss what ends up where.

Tim S wrote:
Thanks John and everyone else.

The Screwfix plug cutters seem to have dire reviews so I'm off to
Axminster - but thanks for the pointers, at least I knew what to search
for

I buy packs of premade oak plugs meself.

My local BM carries them. They are available online too.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Cash wrote:

Also, remember *NOT* to use steel or iron fixings in oak, as the
tannic acid in it will rust them (even under the plugs that you
intend to use) - use non-ferrous fixing of your choice (usually
brass)
Dry oak indoors will not corrode screws. Not in your lifetime, anyway,
use galvanized under plugs.

20mm of oak is tougher than 50mm of softwood.

Sorry to contradict you Natural Philosopher, but it will - and the last time
I looked, galvanising is almost as good as non-ferrous, at least until the
galvanising disappears.. ;-)

Cash

Cash wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Cash wrote:

Also, remember *NOT* to use steel or iron fixings in oak, as the
tannic acid in it will rust them (even under the plugs that you
intend to use) - use non-ferrous fixing of your choice (usually
brass)
Dry oak indoors will not corrode screws. Not in your lifetime, anyway,
use galvanized under plugs.

20mm of oak is tougher than 50mm of softwood.

Sorry to contradict you Natural Philosopher, but it will - and the last time
I looked, galvanising is almost as good as non-ferrous, at least until the
galvanising disappears.. ;-)


Which proves my point?


Cash

Thanks to everyone - that went better than planned (!)

Photos tomorrow...

But, long and short:

I drove to Axminster in Sittingbourne (Kent) and after a short spate of
rolling on the floor in general ecstasy, got these:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-P...Set-794320.htm

(smaller sized set).

These seem to work very well in a normal drill in a cheap bench press jig.

The drove to Orpington and went to Toolstation and Screwfix.

Got some meaty Fischer wall plugs and some hairy stainless 110mm 6mm screws
and some 40mm 5mm screws.

95 miles later...

Used the screw hole cutter on the side of the casings - half a dozen holes
in each. Add clearance holes.

Next - glued and screwed 2 bits of 18x44mm PAR to each side of the casing
uprights (back of course) - brass screws and EVA.

Screwed casing top to sides with 40mm SS screws.

Turned out that with the extra 18mm PAR on the casing it was a very snug fit
in the hole in the wall which made fitting rather easier.

Squared and levelled up, drilled and screwed to wall and as suggested packed
the frame out with wedges of oak chopped off with the combi saw. Had a
minor industrial accident by cutting too short a bit of wood which got
caught and thrown off nearly taking my finger with it... Serves me right
for getting complacent...

End result - dead level, square and utterly rigid - very pleasing result

Cheers

Tim

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:


Next - glued and screwed 2 bits of 18x44mm PAR to each side of the
casing uprights (back of course) - brass screws and EVA.



I've been following this thread with interest, but still haven't succeeded
in working out what PAR is. Please enlighten me!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:

Next - glued and screwed 2 bits of 18x44mm PAR to each side of the
casing uprights (back of course) - brass screws and EVA.



I've been following this thread with interest, but still haven't succeeded
in working out what PAR is. Please enlighten me!

PAR = Planed All Round

see also P4S = Planed 4 Sides

Bob

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bob Minchin wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:

Next - glued and screwed 2 bits of 18x44mm PAR to each side of the
casing uprights (back of course) - brass screws and EVA.



I've been following this thread with interest, but still haven't
succeeded in working out what PAR is. Please enlighten me!

PAR = Planed All Round

see also P4S = Planed 4 Sides

Bob

Thank you! Presumably softwood - pine or somesuch?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wibbled:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:


Next - glued and screwed 2 bits of 18x44mm PAR to each side of the
casing uprights (back of course) - brass screws and EVA.



I've been following this thread with interest, but still haven't succeeded
in working out what PAR is. Please enlighten me!

Hi,

it's planed wood - guess it stands for Planed All Round or somesuch

Roger Mills wibbled:


Thank you! Presumably softwood - pine or somesuch?

Yes - something random and soft - the stuff Wickes, B&Q et al sell.

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bob Minchin wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:

Next - glued and screwed 2 bits of 18x44mm PAR to each side of the
casing uprights (back of course) - brass screws and EVA.


I've been following this thread with interest, but still haven't
succeeded in working out what PAR is. Please enlighten me!
PAR = Planed All Round

see also P4S = Planed 4 Sides

Bob

Thank you! Presumably softwood - pine or somesuch?
The term can be applied to any real wood as it defines the result of
planing.
From the context of the OP, I think he meant softwood when referring to PAR
Regularised is another term applied to softwood processing. This means
the final sizes of a batch are well matched and is useful for stud work
walls to get an even surface. The corners are slightly rounded which is
nicer to handle but no good for visible joinery.

I mainly work in hardwoods and buy it rough sawn and air dried and
process it myself once the moisture content has stabilised in the final
surroundings.

Bob

Tim S wrote:
Roger Mills wibbled:


Thank you! Presumably softwood - pine or somesuch?

Yes - something random and soft - the stuff Wickes, B&Q et al sell.


Oh you mean Banana wood? lol

Bob

Bob Minchin wibbled:

Tim S wrote:
Roger Mills wibbled:


Thank you! Presumably softwood - pine or somesuch?

Yes - something random and soft - the stuff Wickes, B&Q et al sell.


Oh you mean Banana wood? lol

Bob

Probably!

Actually - Wickes is noticeably better IME than B&Q which is why I get their
stuff. Mostly straight and mostly stays straight-ish...

Tim S wrote:
Bob Minchin wibbled:

Tim S wrote:
Roger Mills wibbled:


Thank you! Presumably softwood - pine or somesuch?

Yes - something random and soft - the stuff Wickes, B&Q et al sell.


Oh you mean Banana wood? lol

Bob

Probably!

Actually - Wickes is noticeably better IME than B&Q which is why I
get their stuff. Mostly straight and mostly stays straight-ish...

My experience as well. Won't touch B&Q timber, unless building a boat - in
which case its already bent to shape.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:


I got a Chair Doctor glue pack which I'd been meaning to buy for a
year!


Any chance of producing some feedback on its effectiveness once you've tried
using it?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills coughed up some electrons that declared:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:


I got a Chair Doctor glue pack which I'd been meaning to buy for a
year!


Any chance of producing some feedback on its effectiveness once you've
tried using it?

Sure - will do

On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:15:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I buy packs of premade oak plugs meself.

My local BM carries them. They are available online too.

Mine does too, but they're all cut in one plane, so it depends on the job
as to how well they blend in with the finished piece - DIY with a cutting
tool would allow a bit more selection as to cut and source material.

Jules coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:15:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I buy packs of premade oak plugs meself.

My local BM carries them. They are available online too.

Mine does too, but they're all cut in one plane, so it depends on the job
as to how well they blend in with the finished piece - DIY with a cutting
tool would allow a bit more selection as to cut and source material.

Plus I have lots of offcuts so matching is assured

On Jul 24, 11:26*pm, "Cash"
wrote:
Also, remember *NOT* to use steel or iron fixings in oak, as the tannic acid
in it will rust them (even under the plugs that you intend to use) - use
non-ferrous fixing of your choice (usually brass)

Are you sure? I thought the problem was that the small amount of rust
would stain the oak black. This would not be a problem under a plug.

Also, I would tend to use stainless steel rather than brass (it's
slightly stronger, but mainly because I happen to prefer the look).

Fitted the other door frame today. As luck would have it, all bar 2 of the
screw holes in the left side of the frame lined up with every faulty brick
(frog voids, cracked brick, mortar joint sans half the mortar etc).

Not having time to mortar up the wall, wait a day for it to harden then
drill the holes, I came up with an interesting bodge involving a leftover
bit of resin mortar (chemical anchor stuff).

As I was using long Fischer plugs, I was able to get at least half the plug
into the brickwork in the worst case and all in but very sloppy in other
cases - so I filled the holes with resin gunk, then inserted the plugs then
squirted a bit more around the plugs that were only half in.

Waited 10 minutes and fitted the frame. Every screw did up rock solid. I
then packed some 3:1 strong mortar in the voids and made sure it was well
packed around the dodgey plugs. It's not falling off now.

I'd not thought of using resin in this way but it seemed very successful.
This was for lateral support - I might be more cautious if there was going
to be a heavy load pulling on the screw though, but for a loose plug it
might still work as long as the resin was sticking to something solid...

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wibbled:

Not having time to mortar up the wall, wait a day for it to harden then
drill the holes, I came up with an interesting bodge involving a leftover
bit of resin mortar (chemical anchor stuff).


On an aside - beware of Screwfix NoNonsense resin. Unlike the Fischer stuff
which fits a normal mastic gun, the Screwfix stuff is a much wider
cartridge that needs an oversized gun.

Daft - why can't they just make it normal sized... Had to resort to some
less than exciting interesting bodgery to make that work!

:~o

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:41:27 +0100, Tim S wrote:
On an aside - beware of Screwfix NoNonsense resin. Unlike the Fischer stuff
which fits a normal mastic gun, the Screwfix stuff is a much wider
cartridge that needs an oversized gun.

Hmm, are there not two different standards for cartridge size there? There
are over here, presumably with the larger one being for professionals who
get through a lot of stuff - but almost always I find that the vendor
does a smaller version too (it's just harder to find and more expensive)

Jules wibbled:

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:41:27 +0100, Tim S wrote:
On an aside - beware of Screwfix NoNonsense resin. Unlike the Fischer
stuff which fits a normal mastic gun, the Screwfix stuff is a much wider
cartridge that needs an oversized gun.

Hmm, are there not two different standards for cartridge size there? There
are over here, presumably with the larger one being for professionals who
get through a lot of stuff - but almost always I find that the vendor
does a smaller version too (it's just harder to find and more expensive)

Must be I guess. I've been used to one "normal" cartridge size - and was
pleased to find the Fischer resin was that size.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Jules wibbled:

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:41:27 +0100, Tim S wrote:
On an aside - beware of Screwfix NoNonsense resin. Unlike the Fischer
stuff which fits a normal mastic gun, the Screwfix stuff is a much wider
cartridge that needs an oversized gun.
Hmm, are there not two different standards for cartridge size there? There
are over here, presumably with the larger one being for professionals who
get through a lot of stuff - but almost always I find that the vendor
does a smaller version too (it's just harder to find and more expensive)

Must be I guess. I've been used to one "normal" cartridge size - and was
pleased to find the Fischer resin was that size.

For reasons I don't fully understand, many of the resin carts seem to be
a larger size and require a different gun.

(bit irritating in the same was as some of the guns won't take the
longer tubes used by gripfill etc)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:50:01 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
For reasons I don't fully understand, many of the resin carts seem to be
a larger size and require a different gun.

The odd thing is - at least over here - the guns are insanely cheap.
It's almost economical to buy a few thousand of them and sell them
straight to a scrappy

Roger Mills wibbled:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:


I got a Chair Doctor glue pack which I'd been meaning to buy for a
year!


Any chance of producing some feedback on its effectiveness once you've
tried using it?

Hi

Did one chair last night. Didn't make any real effort to clean the joints -
I just pulled them apart, applied liberal glue to all spindles and banged
it back together. Wiped excess glue off with wet tissues.

At first sight this morning it seems that the back is now rock solid. Time
will tell how good it is, but it was trivially easy and seems to be
working.

It comes with a syringe and some "needles" so it can be used to inject glue
into a loose joint that's not apart. Haven't tried this yet...

Cheers

Tim

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:

Roger Mills wibbled:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Tim S wrote:


I got a Chair Doctor glue pack which I'd been meaning to buy for a
year!


Any chance of producing some feedback on its effectiveness once
you've tried using it?

Hi

Did one chair last night. Didn't make any real effort to clean the
joints - I just pulled them apart, applied liberal glue to all
spindles and banged it back together. Wiped excess glue off with wet
tissues.

At first sight this morning it seems that the back is now rock solid.
Time will tell how good it is, but it was trivially easy and seems to
be working.

It comes with a syringe and some "needles" so it can be used to
inject glue into a loose joint that's not apart. Haven't tried this
yet...

Cheers

Tim


Hi Tim,

Many thanks for the feedback.

I was really interested in what happens when you inject *without*
dismantling. I've got some Ercol chairs whose backs have got a bit loose,
and I really don't want to dismantle them.

Are you planniing to try that approach on any other chairs?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wibbled:


Hi Tim,

Many thanks for the feedback.

I was really interested in what happens when you inject *without*
dismantling. I've got some Ercol chairs whose backs have got a bit loose,
and I really don't want to dismantle them.

Are you planniing to try that approach on any other chairs?

Not yet as I don't have any candidates.

It smells like PVA and something else, but it's thinner and it seems to have
enhanced penetrating properties.

I think if you could get a reasonable amount into the joint and they weren't
too loose (ie no big gaps) it would probably work.

The destructions say if you have big gaps, stick some extra slivers of wood
in.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Roger Mills wibbled:


Hi Tim,

Many thanks for the feedback.

I was really interested in what happens when you inject *without*
dismantling. I've got some Ercol chairs whose backs have got a bit
loose, and I really don't want to dismantle them.

Are you planniing to try that approach on any other chairs?

Not yet as I don't have any candidates.

It smells like PVA and something else, but it's thinner and it seems
to have enhanced penetrating properties.

I think if you could get a reasonable amount into the joint and they
weren't too loose (ie no big gaps) it would probably work.

The destructions say if you have big gaps, stick some extra slivers
of wood in.

Is this the one which causes the wood to swell, then glues it IYSWIM?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:


Is this the one which causes the wood to swell, then glues it IYSWIM?


Allegedly! I'd be interested to know whether it actually does what it says
on the tin!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

The Medway Handyman coughed up some electrons that declared:


Is this the one which causes the wood to swell, then glues it IYSWIM?



Yes - that's what it claims and it seems to live up to it. Just did another
chair (same design) and same good result.

Cheers

Tim

Roger Mills coughed up some electrons that declared:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:


Is this the one which causes the wood to swell, then glues it IYSWIM?


Allegedly! I'd be interested to know whether it actually does what it says
on the tin!

I would say so - because the glue is too thin to gap fill and some slightly
sloppy joints are now solid.