OK, situation, our Victorian detached house, fronts directly onto the
pavement in our village.

There is a soil pipe at the front of the house, put in AFAIK in the
70's, maybe early '80s when a bedroom was converted to a bathroom,
draining into the public sewer in the road. It sees to be just our
drain, so AIUI that makes it our responsibility

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is just a
pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a utility, it
has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the handle areas so I
figure that I need to replace it before someone puts a foot through it
one day.

Now, with a bit of luck I might be able to just put a new lid on, but I
know that often it ends up easier to replace the frame as well.

But being in the pavement, what implications does this have? Presumably
the local authority might have something to say about this, seeing as
they have responsibility for the pavements? Will the lid need to be to a
certain standard? If I have to replace the frame would I need to use
certain contractors? etc.

I know I could just contact them, but I like to go into these things
with a bit of awareness of the what the requirements are
--
Chris French

On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:26:35 +0100, chris French wrote:

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is just a
pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a utility, it
has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the handle areas so I
figure that I need to replace it before someone puts a foot through it
one day.

I'd be tempted to play the "innocent concerned householder" and
report the rusty/dangerous cover to the council street works
department. They might just come along and replace it FOC. B-) I'd
probably send the notification as a letter and keep a copy.

I'd say that you, as a householder, are not allowed to do works on
the public highway but who has responsibility for the cover seems to
be a bit grey. It's in the highway so it could be the councils but it
is on your drain...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:26:35 +0100, chris French wrote:

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is just a
pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a utility, it
has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the handle areas so I
figure that I need to replace it before someone puts a foot through it
one day.

I'd be tempted to play the "innocent concerned householder" and
report the rusty/dangerous cover to the council street works
department. They might just come along and replace it FOC. B-) I'd
probably send the notification as a letter and keep a copy.

But equally, might they not inspect it and then insist that it's
repaired immediately, and that the OP pays for it? No idea what the
correct answer is, but I can well understand the OP wanting to know the
legalities before approaching them.

David

Lobster wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:26:35 +0100, chris French wrote:

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is just
a pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a utility,
it has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the handle areas
so I figure that I need to replace it before someone puts a foot
through it one day.

I'd be tempted to play the "innocent concerned householder" and
report the rusty/dangerous cover to the council street works
department. They might just come along and replace it FOC. B-) I'd
probably send the notification as a letter and keep a copy.

But equally, might they not inspect it and then insist that it's
repaired immediately, and that the OP pays for it? No idea what the
correct answer is, but I can well understand the OP wanting to know the
legalities before approaching them.

David

If it's beyond the boundary of the property, I'd say it's not your problem

Owain wrote:
On 4 July, 23:26, chris French
wrote:
But being in the pavement, what implications does this have? Presumably
the local authority might have something to say about this, seeing as
they have responsibility for the pavements? Will the lid need to be to a
certain standard? If I have to replace the frame would I need to use
certain contractors? etc.

The lid would need to be to highways standard, whatever the council
decide that is, and you would have to use a contractor registered
under the New Roads and Streetworks Act 1991. Opening up the highway
the 'ole will have to be guarded and signed to comply with Safety at
Streetworks and Road Works Code of Practice. There are qualifications
which supervisors and operatives have to have.

Owain

Our county council has a website on which you can report problems with
the highway.
I anonymously reported a dangerous manhole cover outside our property
and it was replaced within a week. That did however realte to the road
drainage.
It used to often be the case that the foul drainage was the
responsibility of the user(s) up to the public main but this varies hugely.

Stuart Noble wrote:
Lobster wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:26:35 +0100, chris French wrote:

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement

xxxxx
David

If it's beyond the boundary of the property, I'd say it's not your problem

seconded

chris French wrote:
OK, situation, our Victorian detached house, fronts directly onto the
pavement in our village.

There is a soil pipe at the front of the house, put in AFAIK in the
70's, maybe early '80s when a bedroom was converted to a bathroom,
draining into the public sewer in the road. It sees to be just our
drain, so AIUI that makes it our responsibility

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is just a
pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a utility, it
has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the handle areas so I
figure that I need to replace it before someone puts a foot through
it one day.

Now, with a bit of luck I might be able to just put a new lid on, but
I know that often it ends up easier to replace the frame as well.

But being in the pavement, what implications does this have?
Presumably the local authority might have something to say about
this, seeing as they have responsibility for the pavements? Will the
lid need to be to a certain standard? If I have to replace the frame
would I need to use certain contractors? etc.

I know I could just contact them, but I like to go into these things
with a bit of awareness of the what the requirements are



If someone tripped over a raised slab or pothole in the pavement outside
your house, who would be held responsible?

It's not your responsibility, it's the council's, unless you *own* the strip
of pavement in front of your house.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Stuart Noble wrote:
Lobster wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:26:35 +0100, chris French wrote:

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is just
a pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a
utility, it has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the
handle areas so I figure that I need to replace it before someone
puts a foot through it one day.

I'd be tempted to play the "innocent concerned householder" and
report the rusty/dangerous cover to the council street works
department. They might just come along and replace it FOC. B-) I'd
probably send the notification as a letter and keep a copy.

But equally, might they not inspect it and then insist that it's
repaired immediately, and that the OP pays for it? No idea what the
correct answer is, but I can well understand the OP wanting to know
the legalities before approaching them.

David

If it's beyond the boundary of the property, I'd say it's not your problem

Probably. How about the case of someone I knew who converted their
front garden into a hard-standing for the car (might even have been done
by the previous owner) and many years later got stuck with a compulsory
and hefty bill for dropping the kerb of the adjacent pavement. I know
it's a different scenario, but...

David

In message , "george (dicegeorge)"
writes


Stuart Noble wrote:
Lobster wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:26:35 +0100, chris French wrote:

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement

xxxxx
David
If it's beyond the boundary of the property, I'd say it's not your
problem

seconded

I don't think it can be as simple as that. AIUI, I am responsible for
the drains from our house until it reaches the public sewer, even when
running under the pavement/road.

eg. in the picture on this webpage under 'Who is Responsible?' our house
would be equivalent to No. 1

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/drains
--
Chris French

In message , Phil L
writes
chris French wrote:
OK, situation, our Victorian detached house, fronts directly onto the
pavement in our village.

There is a soil pipe at the front of the house, put in AFAIK in the
70's, maybe early '80s when a bedroom was converted to a bathroom,
draining into the public sewer in the road. It sees to be just our
drain, so AIUI that makes it our responsibility

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is just a
pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a utility, it
has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the handle areas so I
figure that I need to replace it before someone puts a foot through
it one day.

Now, with a bit of luck I might be able to just put a new lid on, but
I know that often it ends up easier to replace the frame as well.

But being in the pavement, what implications does this have?
Presumably the local authority might have something to say about
this, seeing as they have responsibility for the pavements? Will the
lid need to be to a certain standard? If I have to replace the frame
would I need to use certain contractors? etc.

I know I could just contact them, but I like to go into these things
with a bit of awareness of the what the requirements are



If someone tripped over a raised slab or pothole in the pavement outside
your house, who would be held responsible?

It's not your responsibility, it's the council's, unless you *own* the strip
of pavement in front of your house.

Hmm, not sure it might be as simple as that though.

AIUI, I am responsible for the drain until it reaches the sewer in the
road outside - which could reasonably mean the manhole as well.

Yes, the council are responsible for the pavement. But if they find or
are made aware of a problem with the cover, it could well be that they
can pass the responsibility for the manhole cover onto me - either
asking me too fix it, or fixing it and then passing the cost onto me.
--
Chris French

chris French wrote:
In message , Phil L
writes
chris French wrote:
OK, situation, our Victorian detached house, fronts directly onto
the pavement in our village.

There is a soil pipe at the front of the house, put in AFAIK in the
70's, maybe early '80s when a bedroom was converted to a bathroom,
draining into the public sewer in the road. It sees to be just our
drain, so AIUI that makes it our responsibility

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is
just a pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a
utility, it has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the
handle areas so I figure that I need to replace it before someone
puts a foot through it one day.

Now, with a bit of luck I might be able to just put a new lid on,
but I know that often it ends up easier to replace the frame as
well. But being in the pavement, what implications does this have?
Presumably the local authority might have something to say about
this, seeing as they have responsibility for the pavements? Will the
lid need to be to a certain standard? If I have to replace the frame
would I need to use certain contractors? etc.

I know I could just contact them, but I like to go into these things
with a bit of awareness of the what the requirements are



If someone tripped over a raised slab or pothole in the pavement
outside your house, who would be held responsible?

It's not your responsibility, it's the council's, unless you *own*
the strip of pavement in front of your house.

Hmm, not sure it might be as simple as that though.

AIUI, I am responsible for the drain until it reaches the sewer in the
road outside - which could reasonably mean the manhole as well.

you understand incorrectly then, you are responsible for it until it exits
your property, so if you open your door straight onto a pavement (which if
I've read it correctly, you do) then the drains are the responsibility of
the council, and this manhole is theirs too, regardless of who installed it
and when.


Yes, the council are responsible for the pavement. But if they find or
are made aware of a problem with the cover, it could well be that they
can pass the responsibility for the manhole cover onto me - either
asking me too fix it, or fixing it and then passing the cost onto me.

They can't pass their responsibility onto anyone, it's theirs in law....what
would they do if the house was empty? - they can't have pedestrians falling
into open manholes and then plead that they couldn't establish who owned it!

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

chris French wrote:
In message , "george (dicegeorge)"
writes


Stuart Noble wrote:
Lobster wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:26:35 +0100, chris French wrote:

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement

xxxxx
David
If it's beyond the boundary of the property, I'd say it's not your
problem

seconded

I don't think it can be as simple as that. AIUI, I am responsible for
the drains from our house until it reaches the public sewer, even when
running under the pavement/road.

eg. in the picture on this webpage under 'Who is Responsible?' our
house would be equivalent to No. 1

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/drains

It wouldn't be equivalent to No1 as your house is Victorian, it was
obviously built before 1st October 1937, and it would more likely be No2,
ergo the drains are the responsibility of either the council or the water
board.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:32:25 GMT, Phil L wrote:

chris French wrote:
In message , Phil L
writes
chris French wrote:
OK, situation, our Victorian detached house, fronts directly onto
the pavement in our village.

There is a soil pipe at the front of the house, put in AFAIK in the
70's, maybe early '80s when a bedroom was converted to a bathroom,
draining into the public sewer in the road. It sees to be just our
drain, so AIUI that makes it our responsibility

There is manhole cover over the drain in the pavement - this is
just a pressed steel jobbie, not a cast one as would be used by a
utility, it has rusted through in one of the dips in one of the
handle areas so I figure that I need to replace it before someone
puts a foot through it one day.

Now, with a bit of luck I might be able to just put a new lid on,
but I know that often it ends up easier to replace the frame as
well. But being in the pavement, what implications does this have?
Presumably the local authority might have something to say about
this, seeing as they have responsibility for the pavements? Will the
lid need to be to a certain standard? If I have to replace the frame
would I need to use certain contractors? etc.

I know I could just contact them, but I like to go into these things
with a bit of awareness of the what the requirements are



If someone tripped over a raised slab or pothole in the pavement
outside your house, who would be held responsible?

It's not your responsibility, it's the council's, unless you *own*
the strip of pavement in front of your house.

Hmm, not sure it might be as simple as that though.

AIUI, I am responsible for the drain until it reaches the sewer in the
road outside - which could reasonably mean the manhole as well.

you understand incorrectly then, you are responsible for it until it exits
your property, so if you open your door straight onto a pavement (which if
I've read it correctly, you do) then the drains are the responsibility of
the council, and this manhole is theirs too, regardless of who installed it
and when.


Yes, the council are responsible for the pavement. But if they find or
are made aware of a problem with the cover, it could well be that they
can pass the responsibility for the manhole cover onto me - either
asking me too fix it, or fixing it and then passing the cost onto me.

They can't pass their responsibility onto anyone, it's theirs in law....what
would they do if the house was empty? - they can't have pedestrians falling
into open manholes and then plead that they couldn't establish who owned it!

I've checked into this and we are definitely responsible for our combined
foul and surface water drain until it joins the public sewer in the middle
of the road - therefore if there is a problem, we will have to pay for a
council approved contractor to fix it. Well actually that's not true in our
case (just for the rest of the street) - we *would* be responsible,
*except* that our house is 1935, the neighbouring bungalow is 1934 and for
some reason their kitchen shares our drain, even though they have their own
drain on the other side, so a pre-1937 shared drain makes it the
waterboard's responsibility (thank God as it collapsed in two places!)

In the OPs case, the manhole is part of what is likely to be his drain and
therefore might well be his responsibility.

SteveW

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:38:26 GMT, Phil L wrote:

eg. in the picture on this webpage under 'Who is Responsible?' our
house would be equivalent to No. 1

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/drains

It wouldn't be equivalent to No1 as your house is Victorian, it was
obviously built before 1st October 1937, and it would more likely be
No2, ergo the drains are the responsibility of either the council or the
water board.

"For houses built before 1st October 1937 all pipework serving more
than one property will normally be a public sewer ..."

IIRC this drain is not shared therefore it's a private drain and
responsibilty of the householder until it reaches the public sewer.

Note that "shared" doesn't include more than one household on the
same plot of land, see 18/18a in the diagram. 18/18a have full
responsibilty for the parts that only drain their households (private
drain) and shared responsibilty for the shared section (private
sewer) that connects to the public sewer.

--
Cheers
Dave.