We've got an aluminium double-glazed door between the house and
conversatory, which is normally kept locked because the conservatory itself
isn't all that secure. There are no shoot- bolts - just a normal lock -
except that it's double-locking, requiring two full turns of the key.

SWMBO went to unlock it this morning, and it wouldn't unlock. The key turns
a bit, and the lock moves a bit but refuses to budge any more as if
something internal is deranged.

I've fiddled with it quite a bit today, but with no joy at all. I can't see
for the life of me how it's assembled. There's a stout handle each side,
coming out of an aluminium 'box' - which is several inches tall and about an
inch wide. A lock barrel each side also protrodes through a hole in this
box. No screws are visible, to hold either the boxes or the handles in
place.

So far, I've:
* squirted WD40 into the lock from both sides
* lightly tapped the lock both sides
* tried to lever the working bit of the lock sideways, whilst turning the
key
* tried to turn the key whilst vibrating the door near the lock with an SDS
chisel, acting via a block of wood

None of these has had the slightest effect!

Short of getting an angle grinder to it, has anyone got any useful
suggestions?

TIA.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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monitored..
Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO
NEWSGROUP!

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
We've got an aluminium double-glazed door between the house and
conversatory, which is normally kept locked because the conservatory
itself
isn't all that secure. There are no shoot- bolts - just a normal
lock -
except that it's double-locking, requiring two full turns of the
key.

SWMBO went to unlock it this morning, and it wouldn't unlock. The
key turns
a bit, and the lock moves a bit but refuses to budge any more as if
something internal is deranged.

I've fiddled with it quite a bit today, but with no joy at all. I
can't see
for the life of me how it's assembled. There's a stout handle each
side,
coming out of an aluminium 'box' - which is several inches tall and
about an
inch wide. A lock barrel each side also protrodes through a hole in
this
box. No screws are visible, to hold either the boxes or the handles
in
place.

So far, I've:
* squirted WD40 into the lock from both sides
* lightly tapped the lock both sides
* tried to lever the working bit of the lock sideways, whilst
turning the
key
* tried to turn the key whilst vibrating the door near the lock with
an SDS
chisel, acting via a block of wood

None of these has had the slightest effect!

Short of getting an angle grinder to it, has anyone got any useful
suggestions?

TIA.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored..
Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY
TO
NEWSGROUP!



Have you tried lifting, or depressing the door. It is likely that the
bolt is fouling on the 'socket' due to a bit of movement of the door
relative to its frame.

AWEM

Roger Mills coughed up some electrons that declared:

We've got an aluminium double-glazed door between the house and
conversatory, which is normally kept locked because the conservatory
itself isn't all that secure. There are no shoot- bolts - just a normal
lock - except that it's double-locking, requiring two full turns of the
key.

Is it like one of these:

http://www.euro-lock.co.uk/online/te...orrectsize.gif

My only experience of those eurolocks was on out PVC front door. The lock
barrel only contains the pins and turning the key merely moves a protruding
lever.

Thus, if you think that the lock is starting to trun, it probably means the
pins are OK and the cylinder is OK. You can verify this assumption by
trying the lock from both sides. If it's jamming both ways, it's not the
cyclinder, but the mechanism that the cylinder is operating.

SWMBO went to unlock it this morning, and it wouldn't unlock. The key
turns a bit, and the lock moves a bit but refuses to budge any more as if
something internal is deranged.

I've fiddled with it quite a bit today, but with no joy at all. I can't
see for the life of me how it's assembled. There's a stout handle each
side, coming out of an aluminium 'box' - which is several inches tall and
about an inch wide. A lock barrel each side also protrodes through a hole
in this box. No screws are visible, to hold either the boxes or the
handles in place.

So far, I've:
* squirted WD40 into the lock from both sides
* lightly tapped the lock both sides
* tried to lever the working bit of the lock sideways, whilst turning the
key
* tried to turn the key whilst vibrating the door near the lock with an
SDS chisel, acting via a block of wood

None of these has had the slightest effect!

Short of getting an angle grinder to it, has anyone got any useful
suggestions?

TIA.

The only way I've ever got those locks out was to first have the door open
and the key able to trun the cyclinder by about 10-20 degrees. Them there
was one screw on the edge face of the lock that when removed allowed both
barrels to slide out.

I have an ali door at Robertsbridge - I could look at that and see if the
lock assembly is similar to the PVC ones tomorrow - would that help, with
some photos?

I have no idea what to do if the key or mechanism is jammed. A locksmith
would I'm sure, but that'll cost...

Cheers
Tim

On Sat, 23 May 2009 21:54:51 +0100, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Have you tried lifting, or depressing the door. It is likely that the
bolt is fouling on the 'socket' due to a bit of movement of the door
relative to its frame.

That would be my thoughts as well, as the lock turns that indicates that
the barrel is fin but something else is stoping the rest of the movement.
Along with up and down down forget push and shove.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Roger Mills wrote:

We've got an aluminium double-glazed door between the house and
conversatory, which is normally kept locked because the conservatory itself
isn't all that secure. There are no shoot- bolts - just a normal lock -
except that it's double-locking, requiring two full turns of the key.

SWMBO went to unlock it this morning, and it wouldn't unlock. The key turns
a bit, and the lock moves a bit but refuses to budge any more as if
something internal is deranged.

I've fiddled with it quite a bit today, but with no joy at all. I can't see
for the life of me how it's assembled. There's a stout handle each side,
coming out of an aluminium 'box' - which is several inches tall and about an
inch wide. A lock barrel each side also protrodes through a hole in this
box. No screws are visible, to hold either the boxes or the handles in
place.

So far, I've:
* squirted WD40 into the lock from both sides
* lightly tapped the lock both sides
* tried to lever the working bit of the lock sideways, whilst turning the
key
* tried to turn the key whilst vibrating the door near the lock with an SDS
chisel, acting via a block of wood

None of these has had the slightest effect!

Short of getting an angle grinder to it, has anyone got any useful
suggestions?

TIA.

sounds like a eurolock with a standard euro type security plate.
I'm not sure how useful getting the eurolock out would be, as others
have said, but if cajoling it doesnt work, I'd do that next. The
security plates can usually be unscrewed from one side (hopefully the
inside!). The lock itself is held with a bolt you cant get to with the
door closed, so it would need to be drilled.

The fact that the key turns a bit doesnt mean the cylinder's ok, its
somehat inconclusive.


NT

On 24 May, 01:29, wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
We've got an aluminium double-glazed door between the house and
conversatory, which is normally kept locked because the conservatory itself
isn't all that secure. There are no shoot- bolts - just a normal lock -
except that it's double-locking, requiring two full turns of the key.

SWMBO went to unlock it this morning, and it wouldn't unlock. The key turns
a bit, and the lock moves a bit but refuses to budge any more as if
something internal is deranged.

I've fiddled with it quite a bit today, but with no joy at all. I can't see
for the life of me how it's assembled. There's a stout handle each side,
coming out of an aluminium 'box' - which is several inches tall and about an
inch wide. A lock barrel each side also protrodes through a hole in this
box. No screws are visible, to hold either the boxes or the handles in
place.

So far, I've:
* squirted WD40 into the lock from both sides
* lightly tapped the lock both sides
* tried to lever the working bit of the lock sideways, whilst turning the
key
* tried to turn the key whilst vibrating the door near the lock with an SDS
chisel, acting via a block of wood

None of these has had the slightest effect!

Short of getting an angle grinder to it, has anyone got any useful
suggestions?

TIA.

sounds like a eurolock with a standard euro type security plate.
I'm not sure how useful getting the eurolock out would be, as others
have said, but if cajoling it doesnt work, I'd do that next. The
security plates can usually be unscrewed from one side (hopefully the
inside!). The lock itself is held with a bolt you cant get to with the
door closed, so it would need to be drilled.

The fact that the key turns a bit doesnt mean the cylinder's ok, its
somehat inconclusive.

NT

I would go with the push, pull, lift, press approach. If it is one of
the euro type locks I have one on our front door - heavy wooden with
an antique brass handle mechanism - and if the handle latch is not
absolutely into the faceplate such that the door is held by the lock
bar only, the key lock jams and the only way to release it is to pull
the door towards you.

Rob

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 21:54:51 +0100, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Have you tried lifting, or depressing the door. It is likely that the
bolt is fouling on the 'socket' due to a bit of movement of the door
relative to its frame.

That would be my thoughts as well, as the lock turns that indicates
that the barrel is fin but something else is stoping the rest of the
movement. Along with up and down down forget push and shove.

A neighbours back door showed that same symptoms. I called the local
locksmiths where I buy my locks & stuff (very knowledgeable & much cheaper
than the sheds) and they said the same. When you looked at the door you
could see it wasn't quite 'square' in the frame.

They suggested adjusting the hinges - there was a small allen screw in the
base of them. Quick twiddle & it opened no problem.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 21:54:51 +0100, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Have you tried lifting, or depressing the door. It is likely that
the bolt is fouling on the 'socket' due to a bit of movement of the
door relative to its frame.

That would be my thoughts as well, as the lock turns that indicates
that the barrel is fin but something else is stoping the rest of the
movement. Along with up and down down forget push and shove.

A neighbours back door showed that same symptoms. I called the local
locksmiths where I buy my locks & stuff (very knowledgeable & much
cheaper than the sheds) and they said the same. When you looked at
the door you could see it wasn't quite 'square' in the frame.

They suggested adjusting the hinges - there was a small allen screw
in the base of them. Quick twiddle & it opened no problem.


Many thanks to all who have replied.

The door *looks* square in its frame - but I have also levered it up and
down, and pushed and pulled it, just in case. When the key is turned as far
as it will go - which isn't very far - I can see the bolt move by about 1mm,
and it moves quite freely over that distance - no apparent binding - but
then it goes solid and refuses to move any more. It's a straight rectangular
bolt - not one with a hook or anything.

There's no evidence of anything adjustable on the hinges - no visible allen
screws - just what appears to be the ends of the hinge pins. Having said
that, when I tested the feasibility of drifting the pins out, the end I hit
went down into the hinge a bit, but the other end didn't emerge from the
bottom. Strange!

I rather fear that something has become de-ranged *inside* - preventing the
bolt from moving more than 1mm or so. I'm still puzzled as to how the whole
thing was assembled in the first place. I have several other doors with
broadly similar lock mechanisms, and they *all* have screws going from the
inside to the outside holding the two handle 'boxes' together but this one
has *nothing* - as can be seen from this composite photo which shows the
view from both sides. http://www.mills37.plus.com/Conservatory_lock.JPG
Even if I can got it open by drifting the hinge pins out or cutting through
the bolt with an angle grinder, I won't be able to get the lock out unless I
can remove the handles and the bar which goes bewteen them.

Any further suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Rob G wrote:
On 24 May, 01:29, wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
We've got an aluminium double-glazed door between the house and
conversatory, which is normally kept locked because the conservatory itself
isn't all that secure. There are no shoot- bolts - just a normal lock -
except that it's double-locking, requiring two full turns of the key.
SWMBO went to unlock it this morning, and it wouldn't unlock. The key turns
a bit, and the lock moves a bit but refuses to budge any more as if
something internal is deranged.
I've fiddled with it quite a bit today, but with no joy at all. I can't see
for the life of me how it's assembled. There's a stout handle each side,
coming out of an aluminium 'box' - which is several inches tall and about an
inch wide. A lock barrel each side also protrodes through a hole in this
box. No screws are visible, to hold either the boxes or the handles in
place.
So far, I've:
* squirted WD40 into the lock from both sides
* lightly tapped the lock both sides
* tried to lever the working bit of the lock sideways, whilst turning the
key
* tried to turn the key whilst vibrating the door near the lock with an SDS
chisel, acting via a block of wood
None of these has had the slightest effect!
Short of getting an angle grinder to it, has anyone got any useful
suggestions?
TIA.
sounds like a eurolock with a standard euro type security plate.
I'm not sure how useful getting the eurolock out would be, as others
have said, but if cajoling it doesnt work, I'd do that next. The
security plates can usually be unscrewed from one side (hopefully the
inside!). The lock itself is held with a bolt you cant get to with the
door closed, so it would need to be drilled.

The fact that the key turns a bit doesnt mean the cylinder's ok, its
somehat inconclusive.

NT

I would go with the push, pull, lift, press approach. If it is one of
the euro type locks I have one on our front door - heavy wooden with
an antique brass handle mechanism - and if the handle latch is not
absolutely into the faceplate such that the door is held by the lock
bar only, the key lock jams and the only way to release it is to pull
the door towards you.

Rob

You really need two people, one to do the push/pull, and the other to
turn the key

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:


I would go with the push, pull, lift, press approach. If it is one
of the euro type locks I have one on our front door - heavy wooden
with an antique brass handle mechanism - and if the handle latch is
not absolutely into the faceplate such that the door is held by the
lock bar only, the key lock jams and the only way to release it is
to pull the door towards you.

Rob

You really need two people, one to do the push/pull, and the other to
turn the key

I have! My wife was participating in the exercise for at least some of the
time.

--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 21:54:51 +0100, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Have you tried lifting, or depressing the door. It is likely that
the bolt is fouling on the 'socket' due to a bit of movement of the
door relative to its frame.

That would be my thoughts as well, as the lock turns that indicates
that the barrel is fin but something else is stoping the rest of the
movement. Along with up and down down forget push and shove.

A neighbours back door showed that same symptoms. I called the local
locksmiths where I buy my locks & stuff (very knowledgeable & much
cheaper than the sheds) and they said the same. When you looked at
the door you could see it wasn't quite 'square' in the frame.

They suggested adjusting the hinges - there was a small allen screw
in the base of them. Quick twiddle & it opened no problem.


Many thanks to all who have replied.

The door *looks* square in its frame - but I have also levered it up
and down, and pushed and pulled it, just in case. When the key is
turned as far as it will go - which isn't very far - I can see the
bolt move by about 1mm, and it moves quite freely over that distance
- no apparent binding - but then it goes solid and refuses to move
any more. It's a straight rectangular bolt - not one with a hook or
anything.
There's no evidence of anything adjustable on the hinges - no visible
allen screws - just what appears to be the ends of the hinge pins.
Having said that, when I tested the feasibility of drifting the pins
out, the end I hit went down into the hinge a bit, but the other end
didn't emerge from the bottom. Strange!

I rather fear that something has become de-ranged *inside* -
preventing the bolt from moving more than 1mm or so. I'm still
puzzled as to how the whole thing was assembled in the first place. I
have several other doors with broadly similar lock mechanisms, and
they *all* have screws going from the inside to the outside holding
the two handle 'boxes' together but this one has *nothing* - as can
be seen from this composite photo which shows the view from both
sides. http://www.mills37.plus.com/Conservatory_lock.JPG Even if I
can got it open by drifting the hinge pins out or cutting through the
bolt with an angle grinder, I won't be able to get the lock out
unless I can remove the handles and the bar which goes bewteen them.
Any further suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

One of those cover plates either slides or can be prised off, try picking
out the black caps. One must come off or the door couldn't have been made.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sun, 24 May 2009 11:16:38 +0100, "Roger Mills"
wrote:

The door *looks* square in its frame - but I have also levered it up and
down, and pushed and pulled it, just in case. When the key is turned as far
as it will go - which isn't very far - I can see the bolt move by about 1mm,
and it moves quite freely over that distance - no apparent binding - but
then it goes solid and refuses to move any more. It's a straight rectangular
bolt - not one with a hook or anything.

Try sticking something pointy in the gap between the door and the frame so that
the point digs into the bolt, i.e. a knife point, and moving the bolt back as
you turn the key. Maybe moving the bolt and turning the key at the same time
will get it open?

Not much hope, but easy enough to try...

HTH,

Thomas Prufer

On Sun, 24 May 2009 13:28:25 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

One of those cover plates either slides or can be prised off, try picking
out the black caps. One must come off or the door couldn't have been made.

Could also be held on with just the door handles -- any setscrew in the handle?
Usually and properly on the inside one...


Thomas Prufer

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Thomas Prufer wrote:

On Sun, 24 May 2009 11:16:38 +0100, "Roger Mills"
wrote:

The door *looks* square in its frame - but I have also levered it up
and down, and pushed and pulled it, just in case. When the key is
turned as far as it will go - which isn't very far - I can see the
bolt move by about 1mm, and it moves quite freely over that distance
- no apparent binding - but then it goes solid and refuses to move
any more. It's a straight rectangular bolt - not one with a hook or
anything.

Try sticking something pointy in the gap between the door and the
frame so that the point digs into the bolt, i.e. a knife point, and
moving the bolt back as you turn the key. Maybe moving the bolt and
turning the key at the same time will get it open?

Not much hope, but easy enough to try...

HTH,

Thomas Prufer

Thanks for the suggestion - but I've already tried tried that, I'm afraid. I
managed to make a little cut in the bolt with a padsaw, and then got the end
of a screwdriver into the cut and tried to level the bolt whilst turning the
key. No joy, unfortunately.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Thomas Prufer wrote:

On Sun, 24 May 2009 13:28:25 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

One of those cover plates either slides or can be prised off, try
picking out the black caps. One must come off or the door couldn't
have been made.

Could also be held on with just the door handles -- any setscrew in
the handle? Usually and properly on the inside one...


Thomas Prufer

No, there are no grub screws etc. in either handle like some door handles
have.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:


One of those cover plates either slides or can be prised off, try
picking out the black caps. One must come off or the door couldn't
have been made.

I have tried to remove one of the black caps - but it doesn't seem to want
to come out non-destructively.

I'm wondering whether the covers could be held on by screws going into the
back of them - inserted from inside the frame section before the sealed unit
was put in. Is this feasible?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:


One of those cover plates either slides or can be prised off, try
picking out the black caps. One must come off or the door couldn't
have been made.

I have tried to remove one of the black caps - but it doesn't seem to
want to come out non-destructively.

I'm wondering whether the covers could be held on by screws going
into the back of them - inserted from inside the frame section before
the sealed unit was put in. Is this feasible?

Can't imagine they would go to that much trouble. My money is on the cover
plate inside.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:


One of those cover plates either slides or can be prised off, try
picking out the black caps. One must come off or the door couldn't
have been made.

I have tried to remove one of the black caps - but it doesn't seem to
want to come out non-destructively.

I'm wondering whether the covers could be held on by screws going
into the back of them - inserted from inside the frame section before
the sealed unit was put in. Is this feasible?

Can't imagine they would go to that much trouble. My money is on the
cover plate inside.

When I try to remove the black caps, they move a few mm, and it is then
possible to see that they extend a long way behind the cover - and they are
presumably retained by something way down inside. If I lever *both* caps so
that there is a gap at both the top and the bottom, the cover plate -
together with handle and lock barrel - can then be slid up and down within
that gap.

This suggests that the covers are retained by the caps - which are
themselves retained by some nefarious means behind the covers - maybe screws
from inside the frame section?

However, this is all a bit academic! I first have to get the door open
somehow before being in a position to attack the lock.

Just a bit more on bolt movement . . . .

When the key is inserted and turned in the 'unlock' direction, it turns for
almost half a turn with no resistance before reaching the position where it
moves the bolt slightly. If turned in the 'lock' direction, it again turns
for almost half a turn with no resistance, and then tries to move the bolt
further into the frame - except that the bolt then tends to rock rather than
slide.

Any further ideas anyone?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

On May 24, 11:16*am, "Roger Mills" wrote:
http://www.mills37.plus.com/Conservatory_lock.JPG
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

I have exactly the same lock on my back doors. The handle assemblies
on both are a bit slack. There is not as far as I have been able to
see any means of removing anything apart from the Euro lock barrel
from this assembly.

Sorry :-(

Richard

Further thought (duplicated in email to your address Roger):

As I have the same locks in two doors which, currently, open and close
I'd be happy to investigate dismantling techniques under the direction
of anyone who thinks they know how to get them apart if that might help.


Richard

In article , Roger Mills
wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Stuart Noble
wrote:


I would go with the push, pull, lift, press approach. If it is one
of the euro type locks I have one on our front door - heavy wooden
with an antique brass handle mechanism - and if the handle latch is
not absolutely into the faceplate such that the door is held by the
lock bar only, the key lock jams and the only way to release it is to
pull the door towards you.

Rob

You really need two people, one to do the push/pull, and the other to
turn the key

I have! My wife was participating in the exercise for at least some of
the time.
Is it a multi-point lock with locking points above and below the 'proper'
lock? Could be that part of the long sliding bar has come loose, though I
don't think that would givethe symptoms you describe.

Seems your key is OK so probably no point trying key bumping

John

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

No matter how early you arrive, someone else is in line first.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard Savage wrote:

Further thought (duplicated in email to your address Roger):

As I have the same locks in two doors which, currently, open and close
I'd be happy to investigate dismantling techniques under the direction
of anyone who thinks they know how to get them apart if that might
help.

Richard


It would indeed help - but please don't do it unless you're confident that
you won't end up wrecking your doors!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JTM wrote:

Is it a multi-point lock with locking points above and below the
'proper' lock? Could be that part of the long sliding bar has come
loose, though I don't think that would givethe symptoms you describe.

No, it's a single point lock, with no sliding bars, etc. But it *is* a
double locking lock - in that you have to turn the key through 720 degress
to lock (or unlock!) it fully.


Seems your key is OK so probably no point trying key bumping

John

What's key bumping? I have attacked it with two different keys from both
sides of the lock (trying both keys from both sides) all to no avail. The
key(s) will turn freely for almost +/- 1/2 a turn from the insertion point -
but then come to a grinding halt without moving the bolt more than about a
mm.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

On Sun, 24 May 2009 22:50:51 +0100, in uk.d-i-y "Roger Mills"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JTM wrote:

Is it a multi-point lock with locking points above and below the
'proper' lock? Could be that part of the long sliding bar has come
loose, though I don't think that would givethe symptoms you describe.

No, it's a single point lock, with no sliding bars, etc. But it *is* a
double locking lock - in that you have to turn the key through 720 degress
to lock (or unlock!) it fully.


Seems your key is OK so probably no point trying key bumping

John

What's key bumping?

video at the bottom of http://ukbumpkeys.com/

I have attacked it with two different keys from both
sides of the lock (trying both keys from both sides) all to no avail. The
key(s) will turn freely for almost +/- 1/2 a turn from the insertion point -
but then come to a grinding halt without moving the bolt more than about a
mm.

On Sun, 24 May 2009 22:50:51 +0100, in uk.d-i-y "Roger Mills"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
JTM wrote:

Is it a multi-point lock with locking points above and below the
'proper' lock? Could be that part of the long sliding bar has come
loose, though I don't think that would givethe symptoms you describe.

No, it's a single point lock, with no sliding bars, etc. But it *is* a
double locking lock - in that you have to turn the key through 720 degress
to lock (or unlock!) it fully.


Seems your key is OK so probably no point trying key bumping

John

What's key bumping? I have attacked it with two different keys from both
sides of the lock (trying both keys from both sides) all to no avail. The
key(s) will turn freely for almost +/- 1/2 a turn from the insertion point -
but then come to a grinding halt without moving the bolt more than about a
mm.

Not quite what you have, but a neighbours lock sometimes jams with the
key turned about 40 degress, then you can't turn the key any more or get
it out. This seems to happen if the key is turned when the door handle
is not in the normal horizontal unlocked position. I find resetting the
handle to horizontal frees it. But I imagine you have tried all
positions of the handle.

Phil

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Phil Addison wrote:

On Sun, 24 May 2009 22:50:51 +0100, in uk.d-i-y "Roger Mills"
wrote:


What's key bumping?

video at the bottom of http://ukbumpkeys.com/

Thanks for the link. Unless I'm mistaken, this appears to be a technique for
getting some sort of generic key - rather than the proper key - to operate a
lock. Is this correct?

In my case, I'm using the *right* key, and it turns through almost a
complete turn (half a turn either side of the position in which it can be
inserted and removed) - so I don't think that 'bumping' really addresses my
problem.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Phil Addison wrote:


Not quite what you have, but a neighbours lock sometimes jams with the
key turned about 40 degress, then you can't turn the key any more or
get it out. This seems to happen if the key is turned when the door
handle is not in the normal horizontal unlocked position. I find
resetting the handle to horizontal frees it. But I imagine you have
tried all positions of the handle.

Phil

Yes I have, but I'm pretty sure that the bolt operated by the lock, and the
latch operated by the handle are independent in my setup. Locking the door
has never locked the handle, and you don't have to (can't!) raise the handle
above the horizontal before it will lock, as is the case with most of my
other locking doors.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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In article , Phil Addison
wrote:
Not quite what you have, but a neighbours lock sometimes jams with the
key turned about 40 degress, then you can't turn the key any more or get
it out. This seems to happen if the key is turned when the door handle
is not in the normal horizontal unlocked position. I find resetting the
handle to horizontal frees it. But I imagine you have tried all
positions of the handle.

Phil
Another possibility; daughter's front door lock sometimes allows the key to
turn 1/4 and then stops solid. On checking it, the barrel that turns with
the key, has some in/out movement, so that pushing the key into the slot,
as you do, pushes the barrel into the lock by about .5mm and can stop the
lock from unlocking.

Easing the key and barrel back by a 'smidgin' allows the door to be
unlocked.

John

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

A day without sunshine is like... night

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Phil Addison wrote:


Not quite what you have, but a neighbours lock sometimes jams with
the key turned about 40 degress, then you can't turn the key any
more or get it out. This seems to happen if the key is turned when
the door handle is not in the normal horizontal unlocked position. I
find resetting the handle to horizontal frees it. But I imagine you
have tried all positions of the handle.

Phil

Yes I have, but I'm pretty sure that the bolt operated by the lock,
and the latch operated by the handle are independent in my setup.
Locking the door has never locked the handle, and you don't have to
(can't!) raise the handle above the horizontal before it will lock,
as is the case with most of my other locking doors.

I can only think of two further things to do Roger. I'm still convinced
that the cover plates must prize off. They may be a very tight fit, but
they must come off. At the university where I have a contract all the room
doors have push fit covers. They are a very tight fit but they do come off.

Its a eurolock so it can either be drilled or snapped. Drilling is
apparently harder than snapping.

Have a look at http://www.handlestore.com/antisnap.php which shows the
principle if not the method. Google for 'snapping euro lock'.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Almost certainly a Union or Yale lock body.
The aluminium handle cover plate will prise off with a screwdriver, (try not
to break the handles as they have been discontinued & no longer available)
though I believe someone makes copies.
Doesn't help with the unlocking though :0(

The Medway Handyman wrote:


I can only think of two further things to do Roger. I'm still convinced
that the cover plates must prize off. They may be a very tight fit, but
they must come off. At the university where I have a contract all the room
doors have push fit covers. They are a very tight fit but they do come off.

Its a eurolock so it can either be drilled or snapped. Drilling is
apparently harder than snapping.


Yes, but it's not the lock cylinder that's the problem, it's the lock
mechanism. Drilling the cylinder is pointless as the OP has the right key.

The fact that the key moves almost half a turn either way is because the
cam (the "thrower") on the europrofile cylinder doesn't actually do
anything until it's turned through nearly half a turn. The problem is
clearly with the lock mechanism, not the cylinder. Either the door is
sufficiently out of shape that the mechanism is jammed in some way
(which you seem to have eliminated) or something has broken inside the lock.

From the descriptions so far, I would say that there's something worn
or broken in the lock and the thrower on the europrofile cylinder can't
operate the mechanism.

Options to fix this problem are either to:-

1. If there is enough play, you can jack the door frame until the bolt
no longer catches in the keep, thus opening the door with the lock still
locked. However, with the dead-lock double-thrown, you would have to
jack the frame an awful long way.

2. If you've already got a hacksaw to the bolt and it seems to be going
OK, you can carry on and saw the bolt off completely. However, there
might be roller inserts in the bolt to stop this.

3. Snap the cylinder out, which would give you the opportunity to get an
endoscope into the lock case to see what the problem is. Manipulate the
lock mechanism through the cylinder hole or drill the lock case and
manipulate the bolt directly to fix. (This is what a locksmith would do).

4 The lock is binding after all and you just need to need to give
something more welly...

You do need to figure out how to remove the handles as at any rate
you'll need to dismantle and service the lock case. You may find that
the inside handle has screws which go through to the outside handle, so
tackle the inside handle first.

Dave Osborne wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:


I can only think of two further things to do Roger. I'm still
convinced that the cover plates must prize off. They may be a very
tight fit, but they must come off. At the university where I have a
contract all the room doors have push fit covers. They are a very
tight fit but they do come off. Its a eurolock so it can either be
drilled or snapped. Drilling is
apparently harder than snapping.


Yes, but it's not the lock cylinder that's the problem, it's the lock
mechanism. Drilling the cylinder is pointless as the OP has the right
key.

Good point. But if you snapped the euro lock & removed it, you could prolly
access the mechanism.

SNIP

3. Snap the cylinder out, which would give you the opportunity to get
an endoscope into the lock case to see what the problem is.
Manipulate the lock mechanism through the cylinder hole or drill the
lock case and manipulate the bolt directly to fix. (This is what a
locksmith would do).

Thats what I meant, you are right, drilling would do no good.

4 The lock is binding after all and you just need to need to give
something more welly...

You do need to figure out how to remove the handles as at any rate
you'll need to dismantle and service the lock case. You may find that
the inside handle has screws which go through to the outside handle,
so tackle the inside handle first.

Thats what I reckon.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Dave Osborne wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:


I can only think of two further things to do Roger. I'm still
convinced that the cover plates must prize off. They may be a very
tight fit, but they must come off. At the university where I have a
contract all the room doors have push fit covers. They are a very
tight fit but they do come off. Its a eurolock so it can either be
drilled or snapped. Drilling is
apparently harder than snapping.


Yes, but it's not the lock cylinder that's the problem, it's the lock
mechanism. Drilling the cylinder is pointless as the OP has the right
key.

Good point. But if you snapped the euro lock & removed it, you could
prolly access the mechanism.

SNIP

3. Snap the cylinder out, which would give you the opportunity to get
an endoscope into the lock case to see what the problem is.
Manipulate the lock mechanism through the cylinder hole or drill the
lock case and manipulate the bolt directly to fix. (This is what a
locksmith would do).

Thats what I meant, you are right, drilling would do no good.

4 The lock is binding after all and you just need to need to give
something more welly...

You do need to figure out how to remove the handles as at any rate
you'll need to dismantle and service the lock case. You may find
that the inside handle has screws which go through to the outside
handle, so tackle the inside handle first.

Thats what I reckon.

Thanks for all your help - everyone.

You are right Dave (TMH) - the cover plate *does* come off - leaving an
inner bit with the handle attached, and held on by 2 screws which go right
through the door and into the back of the plate on the other side.

With both handle plates off, I could see quite a lot of the mechanism -'cos
the holes in the door itself are quite big. On one side there were some
little square studs sticking out which looked as if they ought to slide up
and down in slots. When I held them up against a spring with a screwdriver,
I found that I could turn the key fully and unlock the door. I was then able
to take everything apart.

The thing with the studs on is some sort of interlock - with castellated
notches in it, and is supposed to be lifted out of the way by the cam to
enable the bolt to move. However, the bottom bit - on which the cam
operates - had broken off, hence the bolt wouldn't move.

I was right in my suspicions - as confirmed by Dave Osborne - that the
problem was deep inside the lock and nothing to do with the barrel.

All I need now is a new lock! The one in question was made by Union about 20
years ago. Hopefully they - or at least someone - still makes one which is
compatible.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:


Thanks for all your help - everyone.

You are right Dave (TMH)

That makes a change - I have a wife & two daughters :-)

- the cover plate *does* come off - leaving
an inner bit with the handle attached, and held on by 2 screws which
go right through the door and into the back of the plate on the other
side.
With both handle plates off, I could see quite a lot of the mechanism
-'cos the holes in the door itself are quite big. On one side there
were some little square studs sticking out which looked as if they
ought to slide up and down in slots. When I held them up against a
spring with a screwdriver, I found that I could turn the key fully
and unlock the door. I was then able to take everything apart.

The thing with the studs on is some sort of interlock - with
castellated notches in it, and is supposed to be lifted out of the
way by the cam to enable the bolt to move. However, the bottom bit -
on which the cam operates - had broken off, hence the bolt wouldn't
move.
I was right in my suspicions - as confirmed by Dave Osborne - that the
problem was deep inside the lock and nothing to do with the barrel.

All I need now is a new lock! The one in question was made by Union
about 20 years ago. Hopefully they - or at least someone - still
makes one which is compatible.

Glad you got that sorted, it was driving me mad & its not even my door :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Roger Mills wrote:


Thanks for all your help - everyone.

You are right Dave (TMH) - the cover plate *does* come off - leaving
an inner bit with the handle attached, and held on by 2 screws which
go right through the door and into the back of the plate on the other
side.
With both handle plates off, I could see quite a lot of the mechanism
-'cos the holes in the door itself are quite big. On one side there
were some little square studs sticking out which looked as if they
ought to slide up and down in slots. When I held them up against a
spring with a screwdriver, I found that I could turn the key fully
and unlock the door. I was then able to take everything apart.

The thing with the studs on is some sort of interlock - with
castellated notches in it, and is supposed to be lifted out of the
way by the cam to enable the bolt to move. However, the bottom bit -
on which the cam operates - had broken off, hence the bolt wouldn't
move.
I was right in my suspicions - as confirmed by Dave Osborne - that the
problem was deep inside the lock and nothing to do with the barrel.

All I need now is a new lock! The one in question was made by Union
about 20 years ago. Hopefully they - or at least someone - still
makes one which is compatible.


I've been away for a few days, and managed to leave the thing locked
safely - albeit broken - while away, but set about fixing it this morning.

The good news is that I managed to find a local mobile locksmith who
happened to have a new lock of the right sort buried under a heap of junk in
the back of his van. Prior to that he had found a couple of 'used' locks of
the right sort in his workshop, and thought that he might be able to
canabalise one of them for bits. However, on taking them apart, they had
*both* failed in exactly the same way as mine - so it must be a common
problem.

In case it's of interest to anyone, I've posted a picture of the failed bit
at http://www.mills37.plus.com/broken_lock.JPG - where you can see the
L-shaped bit which has broken off.

When the key is turned, this plate gets lifted - moving the dogs clear of
the bolt so that it can move. It's supposed to be lifted via the bit that's
broken off and - without lifting it - there's no way you can unlock the
door.

Again, thanks to everyone who made helpful suggestions - particularly Dave
(TMH) for his insistence that the cover plates *must* prise off.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
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monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Roger Mills wrote:


Thanks for all your help - everyone.

You are right Dave (TMH) - the cover plate *does* come off - leaving
an inner bit with the handle attached, and held on by 2 screws which
go right through the door and into the back of the plate on the other
side.
With both handle plates off, I could see quite a lot of the mechanism
-'cos the holes in the door itself are quite big. On one side there
were some little square studs sticking out which looked as if they
ought to slide up and down in slots. When I held them up against a
spring with a screwdriver, I found that I could turn the key fully
and unlock the door. I was then able to take everything apart.

The thing with the studs on is some sort of interlock - with
castellated notches in it, and is supposed to be lifted out of the
way by the cam to enable the bolt to move. However, the bottom bit -
on which the cam operates - had broken off, hence the bolt wouldn't
move.
I was right in my suspicions - as confirmed by Dave Osborne - that
the problem was deep inside the lock and nothing to do with the
barrel. All I need now is a new lock! The one in question was made by
Union
about 20 years ago. Hopefully they - or at least someone - still
makes one which is compatible.


I've been away for a few days, and managed to leave the thing locked
safely - albeit broken - while away, but set about fixing it this
morning.
The good news is that I managed to find a local mobile locksmith who
happened to have a new lock of the right sort buried under a heap of
junk in the back of his van. Prior to that he had found a couple of
'used' locks of the right sort in his workshop, and thought that he
might be able to canabalise one of them for bits. However, on taking
them apart, they had *both* failed in exactly the same way as mine -
so it must be a common problem.

In case it's of interest to anyone, I've posted a picture of the
failed bit at http://www.mills37.plus.com/broken_lock.JPG - where you
can see the L-shaped bit which has broken off.

When the key is turned, this plate gets lifted - moving the dogs
clear of the bolt so that it can move. It's supposed to be lifted via
the bit that's broken off and - without lifting it - there's no way
you can unlock the door.

Again, thanks to everyone who made helpful suggestions - particularly
Dave (TMH) for his insistence that the cover plates *must* prise off.

Always a pleasure Roger, never a chore :-)

Glad I was right for a change!


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Roger Mills wrote:

In case it's of interest to anyone, I've posted a picture of the failed bit
at http://www.mills37.plus.com/broken_lock.JPG - where you can see the
L-shaped bit which has broken off.


I recognise that kind of casting. I've got that stuff in all the
internal catches in my house. It's some kind of zinc rich low melting
point easy to cast stuff. Which is soft, weak _and_ brittle.

I reckon if it had been proper steel - or even brass - you'd never have
had the problem.

Andy

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Champ wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:

In case it's of interest to anyone, I've posted a picture of the
failed bit at http://www.mills37.plus.com/broken_lock.JPG - where
you can see the L-shaped bit which has broken off.


I recognise that kind of casting. I've got that stuff in all the
internal catches in my house. It's some kind of zinc rich low melting
point easy to cast stuff. Which is soft, weak _and_ brittle.

I reckon if it had been proper steel - or even brass - you'd never
have had the problem.

Andy

Yes, it seems to have the characteristics of Mazac (sp?) or some such crap,
of which things like Dinky Toys used to be made.

If I'd had the facilities, it would have been nice to make a new piece by
machining it out of solid brass - but it's actually quite a complex shape,
and most of the dimensions are fairly critical.

Let's hope that the equivalent component in the new lock is made of
something better - or else I shall be looking for yet another replacement in
20 years time! g
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 22:52:47 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Champ wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:

In case it's of interest to anyone, I've posted a picture of the
failed bit at http://www.mills37.plus.com/broken_lock.JPG - where
you can see the L-shaped bit which has broken off.


I recognise that kind of casting. I've got that stuff in all the
internal catches in my house. It's some kind of zinc rich low melting
point easy to cast stuff. Which is soft, weak _and_ brittle.

I reckon if it had been proper steel - or even brass - you'd never
have had the problem.

Andy

Yes, it seems to have the characteristics of Mazac (sp?) or some such crap,
of which things like Dinky Toys used to be made.

I thought exactly the same thing - then I googled for Mazac and came up
blank, so didn't bother posting :-) Was Mazac a trade name long-forgotten,
or are we just screwing up the spelling?

I remember it mostly from old '70s vehicles - after close on 40 years
it's often gone very pitted and doesn't seem to last at all well (I've
seen various broken components)

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jules wrote:


I thought exactly the same thing - then I googled for Mazac and came
up blank, so didn't bother posting :-) Was Mazac a trade name
long-forgotten, or are we just screwing up the spelling?

We're screwing up the spelling! If you Google for 'Mazak Alloy' (with a K)
you'll get lots of hits.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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