Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

In article ,
David in Normandy wrote:
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

I'd say so. They come in all shapes and sizes so your description doesn't
really help.

But it really reinforces what I said earlier about soldering tube -
practice on scrap before doing it for real.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , David in Normandy
wrote

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

Did the pipes(s) contain any water?

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

Alan wrote:
In message , David in Normandy
wrote

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

Did the pipes(s) contain any water?


No water. Brand new copper pipe not connected to anything.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'd say so. They come in all shapes and sizes so your description doesn't
really help.

But it really reinforces what I said earlier about soldering tube -
practice on scrap before doing it for real.


The blowlamp was a freebee someone gave me second hand, so at least I've
not wasted any money on it other than buying another can of butane.

I've just had a look in the Screwfix catalogue, it seems there are all
sorts of torches as you say. Hot and hotter!

What do people here use? I don't want to pay professional money, just
the minimum to do some house DIY plumbing work.

"David in Normandy" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'd say so. They come in all shapes and sizes so your description doesn't
really help.

But it really reinforces what I said earlier about soldering tube -
practice on scrap before doing it for real.


The blowlamp was a freebee someone gave me second hand, so at least I've
not wasted any money on it other than buying another can of butane.

I've just had a look in the Screwfix catalogue, it seems there are all
sorts of torches as you say. Hot and hotter!

What do people here use? I don't want to pay professional money, just the
minimum to do some house DIY plumbing work.


I have previously used ones similar to what you describe, and though it
wasn't great, it certainly was able to heat 15 + 22mm pipe enough to melt
solder.

Is there something sinking the heat, like water in the pipe?

I now use a mapp gas torch, and much prefer it. Something very like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/88230/...-Torch-TS7000T

This will get the joint up to heat much more quickly and evenly, in my
experience.

--
Ron

On Fri, 08 May 2009 18:01:16 +0200, David in Normandy wrote:
What do people here use? I don't want to pay professional money, just
the minimum to do some house DIY plumbing work.

I bought a small handheld MAPP gas torch a few months ago at a DIY shed -
$20 (what, 15 quid?) for the torch and attached bottle. Seems to work very
well.

cheers

Jules

On Fri, 08 May 2009 16:33:22 +0200, David in Normandy
wrote:

Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

Thats a bit odd.Any chance of seeing a pic of the gun . It doesn't
take a lot of heat really to do whats needed .





--------------
Any posting using my name and/or e-mail address
but other than by newsindividual.net is not being posted by me and should be disregarded .
Remove NOSPAM to reply by e-mail

In article ,
David in Normandy wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'd say so. They come in all shapes and sizes so your description
doesn't really help.

But it really reinforces what I said earlier about soldering tube -
practice on scrap before doing it for real.


The blowlamp was a freebee someone gave me second hand, so at least I've
not wasted any money on it other than buying another can of butane.

I've just had a look in the Screwfix catalogue, it seems there are all
sorts of torches as you say. Hot and hotter!

What do people here use? I don't want to pay professional money, just
the minimum to do some house DIY plumbing work.

I use a fairly ancient Camping Gaz one, so can't really help with what's
available today. If doing a lot it would make sense to use the type with a
separate bottle with a hose to the business end as the running costs are
lower. But no need for occasional DIY.
You said you were given it - perhaps it originally came with a selection
of nozzles and you've got one which is too small?

The one I've got is fine for everything - but needs to be on full belt for
28 mm.

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

David in Normandy wrote:

Advice anyone please?

FX: Jezza voice over

MORE POWER!

/FX

Just out of interest, was it 22mm pipe?

Tim

"David in Normandy" wrote in message
...
....

What do people here use? ...

A 4.5kg butane gas cylinder, with a flexible hose and a hand grip /
controller, that takes a variety of nozzles from 15mm to 60mm diameter. It
will do everything from small part soldering to stripping paint off a metal
gutter.

Colin Bignell

In article ,
Stuart B wrote:
Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

Thats a bit odd.Any chance of seeing a pic of the gun . It doesn't
take a lot of heat really to do whats needed .

Indeed - you get those useless electric clamp thingies from Antex which
are only a hundred watts or so. Most blowlamps are 5 times that or more -
unless you're talking jewellry ones.

--
*Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim Downie wrote:
David in Normandy wrote:

Advice anyone please?

FX: Jezza voice over

MORE POWER!

/FX

Just out of interest, was it 22mm pipe?

Tim



I was trying to solder a T onto the end of 2.5 metres of 16 mm copper
pipe. (The standard external diameters here in France seem to be 16 and
12 mm).

"David in Normandy" wrote in message
...
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

Its quite possible to solder 15mm pipe with a very big electric soldering
iron, Its also possible with a cooks Crême brulées torch,
What on earth are you using

This is all I use for one-off jobs
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CAMPING-GAZ-BL...mZ320368104806
50p at most boot sales, and the refill is only 99p.

-

In article ,
David in Normandy writes:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'd say so. They come in all shapes and sizes so your description doesn't
really help.

But it really reinforces what I said earlier about soldering tube -
practice on scrap before doing it for real.


The blowlamp was a freebee someone gave me second hand, so at least I've
not wasted any money on it other than buying another can of butane.

I've just had a look in the Screwfix catalogue, it seems there are all
sorts of torches as you say. Hot and hotter!

What do people here use? I don't want to pay professional money, just
the minimum to do some house DIY plumbing work.

I used the cheapest £10 propane/butane mix blowlamp from Wickes
for replumbing a house, including installing the whole heating
system, all done in end-feed copper. It copes with fittings up
to 28mm without any problems.

I'm struggling to imagine what you are doing wrong. There
are blowlamps for mixed and pure gas, and the cylinders are
interchangable, but it's usually obvious when you light it
if you have the wrong type as the gas flow rate is wrong
and you can't control the flame properly. If you haven't
finished a joint within a minute, it's probably beyond
completion, as the flux will have long since gone and the
copper likely formed an oxide layer in the heat.

When I next came to buy a blowlamp, I spent a few quid more to
get peizo ignition, but otherwise, I still use the cheapest
type you can buy, as it copes fine.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"David in Normandy" wrote in message
...
Tim Downie wrote:
David in Normandy wrote:

Advice anyone please?

FX: Jezza voice over

MORE POWER!

/FX

Just out of interest, was it 22mm pipe?

Tim



I was trying to solder a T onto the end of 2.5 metres of 16 mm copper
pipe. (The standard external diameters here in France seem to be 16 and 12
mm).


Sounds wrong.
The cheapest and nastiest blowtorch should be able to do that.

The flame should be mainly blue, not smokey yellow. Is it?

You need to hold the torch so that the hottest part of the flame is playing
on the copper. That's normally around the tip of the blue 'vee' shape
visible in the flame. Play this around the general area of the fitting.

If you've never done soldered joints before, then get some yorkshire (
solder ring ) fittings and play with them first. They help you get a feel
for it.

For yorkshires:
Wire-wool and flux all tubes, and even fitting interiors if you're starting
out.
Assemble fitting in such a way that it's not going to move.
Torch it as described above, all parts of the fitting will melt around the
same time.
When bright solder-ring appears at the annulus, stop heating.

Be aware of graviy.
Heat with a slight bias to the top, so the capillary action has time to work
on the top connection before all the solder runs out of the bottom
connection.

Only once you have mastered yorkshires would I suggest moving on to plain
fittings.

Even so-called professionals can make an arse of these.
The number of solder fittings I've seen which look like the solder-monster
barfed over them is incredible.
One advantage of yorkshires is that with internal solder application, they
are visually very neat. No solder-barf.

F'd up fittings can be removed, if required.
Heat and carefull application of force with some hen's legs ( 'water pump
pliers' is the correct term, I think ) and a hammer.
Then clean up the tube by heating and wiping the excess molten solder with a
wet rag.

Have fun.

Ron

David in Normandy wrote:

I've cracked it (I think)!

Two things:

1. The gas cylinder was butane. My new cylinder is a calorgaz high power
butane/ propane mix. This gives a better flame, more blue in it.

2. Discovered the nozzle on the torch could be moved a little. By moving
it away from the bottle by a couple of millimetres it seems to be
drawing in air better from the back two holes and the flame is more what
I'd expect - pure blue and it is focussed into more of a point.

Tomorrow I'll try again, but am hopeful the above will make all the
difference.

David in Normandy wrote:
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a
problem. My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough
to melt the solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol
type screw on cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered
it still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing
solder when I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point.
Surely if it was going to melt the solder it would have done so after
a minute or two?

I would have thought so. No water in the pipe?

I upgraded to propane a while ago & its much quicker, but my old butane
torch wasn't as slow as that.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

David in Normandy wrote:
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

In increasing order of performance. (In all cases below, a
swirly/cyclone flame burner - if available - is better for soldering
copper pipes than a general purpose burner because it allows you to heat
the joint from one-side only. i.e. the swirly flame wraps around the pipe).

1. Basic* butane blow-lamp with a disposable can.

2. Basic propane/butane blow lamp with a disposable can.

3. Pro** blow lamp/gas torch with Propane gas in a disposable can.

4. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultra gas in a disposable can.

5. Pro gas torch with refillable propane cylinder (What the trade
generally uses for minor jobs/tight spaces).

6. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultragas with refillable container.

7. Torch-on-a-hose with a 3.9kg Propane cylinder. (What the trade uses
for all general work).

* e.g. older-style Taymar
** e.g. Bernzomatic/Rothenberger/Primus/Sievert

===

For top-performance disposable-can work, I can recommend the
Primus/Sievert 2335 Powerjet Ultra with 8706 cyclone burner.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Primus-2335-.../dp/B000X2GF9A


===

So, what's the difference between a blow-lamp and a gas torch?

Well an old-fashioned 'blow lamp' will have the following features: -

No integrated piezo ignition. (But newer/upscale models now do have this
feature).
Takes a while to warm up (i.e flares-out if you wave it about before
it's warmed up).
Definitely won't work upside down before it's warmed up.
Probably won't work upside down very well at all (or indeed at any
appreciable angle from the vertical).
Doesn't have a swirly cyclone gas pattern.

A modern 'gas torch' will have the following features:

Integrated piezo ignition.
Instant warm-up.
Operation at any angle, including fully inverted without warm-up.
Swirly cyclone gas pattern, so you can heat the joint from one side only.

The trade tends to go for the torch-on-a-hose with 3.9kg propane bottle
solution because it's the cheapest option and you can get different
burners (which go much more powerful than anything with an attached
can/bottle).

===

Classic British manufacturer of gas torches with a rubber hose is
Bullfinch, but they don't do swirly cyclone burners.

http://www.bullfinch-gas.co.uk

===

You can also get similar stuff from Primus-Sievert (but with the option
of swirly cyclone burners).

http://www.lister.co.uk/Uploads/prod...sievertcat.pdf

===

You can buy some Primus Sievert (Swedish made) and lots of
Clarke-branded (Italian-made) stuff from Machine Mart.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/ca...ch/gas-torches

===

and finally, Lidl currently has a offer on for a (German-made, I think)
torch kit for £20 and 2-Bar propane regulator for £10, which is a
reasonable deal, although Machine Mart (spit) has a better value deal
for a kit with three burners(£26.44):

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...h-with-nozzles

Neither of these deals have swirly/cyclone burners.

===

Rothenberger is a mixture of re-branded Bernzomatic/Sievert product.

http://www.rothenberger.com/uploads/...nd_Welding.pdf

===

Some Bernzomatic product is available from Screwfix and larger B&Q stores.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/default.aspx

===

Lastly, if you already have a propane cylinder for some purpose or
other, then you may wish to know that most of these torches/burners
require a regulator set to 2 Bar.

===

Comments & flames (no pun intended!) welcome.
Cheers, Rumble

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David in Normandy
saying something like:

Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

You're most likely just waving it at the pipe. Get the hottest part of
the flame touching the pipework and move it around. You must must
practice on some scrap to get the feel of it.

"David in Normandy" wrote in message
...
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

Yep, more power.
I use one of those small Butane cartridge, small blowlamps for fine
(actually relatively huge!) soldering work and they're really handy but are
hopeless for copper pipe and fittings. A decent torch should take about 5
seconds to make a 15mm T joint.
(Horses and courses .

On 8 May, 15:33, David in Normandy
wrote:
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

You do have plumbers solder don't you? not brazing wire or silver
solder.

On Fri, 08 May 2009 19:04:36 +0200, David in Normandy wrote:

Tim Downie wrote:
David in Normandy wrote:

Advice anyone please?

FX: Jezza voice over

MORE POWER!

/FX

Just out of interest, was it 22mm pipe?

Tim



I was trying to solder a T onto the end of 2.5 metres of 16 mm copper
pipe. (The standard external diameters here in France seem to be 16 and
12 mm).

Just about any diy blowlamp should be capable of doing this.

It will take a little more heat for French plumbing rather than UK, as the
pipe wall is thicker, but it doesn't make much difference.

They seem to have a whole variety of pipe sizes, as you seem to be able to
get them in 2mm steps if you look hard enough. Wall thickness is a fraction
under 1mm, allowing a single fitting to be used externally on 10mm and
internally on 14mm or for 10mm pipe to be soldered directly into 12mm. All
this is assuming that things haven't changed in the 18 years or so since I
plumbed most of a house in Brittany.

SteveW

On Fri, 08 May 2009 20:30:48 +0100, Dave Osborne wrote:
4. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultra gas in a disposable can.

JOOI, why is the above...

6. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultragas with refillable container.

.... worse performance than that? I can imagine an economic difference for
anyone doing a lot of work, but what is it that makes #6 work better?

On Fri, 08 May 2009 11:14:50 -0500, Jules wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2009 18:01:16 +0200, David in Normandy wrote:
What do people here use? I don't want to pay professional money, just
the minimum to do some house DIY plumbing work.

I bought a small handheld MAPP gas torch a few months ago at a DIY shed -
$20 (what, 15 quid?) for the torch and attached bottle.

FWIW I was in the same store today at it was $16, not $20. Brain rot at
work...

On Fri, 08 May 2009 20:59:04 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

You're most likely just waving it at the pipe. Get the hottest part of
the flame touching the pipework and move it around.

That is think is the problem. I don't think the OP did do chemistry at
school or wasn't paying attention to the lesson on bunsen burners. B-)

A roaring flame, like that from a blow lamp has two parts. An inner
brighter blue cone and outer darker blue flame. The hottest part is just
outside the tip of the inner cone. So the tip of the inner cone should
held just clear of the pipe and moved about slowishly. You need to heat
both the fitting and the pipe so a good place is at the join.

I use a similar cartridge type blow lamp, succesfully made joints on 28mm
with it. But I did fail on a 22mm T when the cartridge was getting low,
not enough to be immediatly noticeable in the sound of flame.

On 15mm twenty or thirty seconds of heating is all that is required, you
don't want to overheat the joint so little test prods with the solder
after 20s or so until the solder melts, when it does remove the heat(*)
and feed in a total of about 3/8" of solder. Leave to cool for a minute or
so then take damp cloth to wipe away the flux residue.

(*) Making sure you don't set fire to anything whilst you are
concentrating in getting solder into the joint...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Jules wrote:
On Fri, 08 May 2009 20:30:48 +0100, Dave Osborne wrote:
4. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultra gas in a disposable can.

JOOI, why is the above...

6. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultragas with refillable container.

... worse performance than that? I can imagine an economic difference for
anyone doing a lot of work, but what is it that makes #6 work better?



Good point, thanks. In this case not better in terms of heat output or
soldering capability, but better in terms of longer time between
cartridge changes (and more economic overall pricing if you have a trade
discount at the plumber's merchant).

In article et,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 15mm twenty or thirty seconds of heating is all that is required, you
don't want to overheat the joint so little test prods with the solder
after 20s or so until the solder melts, when it does remove the heat(*)
and feed in a total of about 3/8" of solder. Leave to cool for a minute
or so then take damp cloth to wipe away the flux residue.

The flame takes on a green hue as you get to the correct temperature. But
may not be very apparent.

--
*Would a fly without wings be called a walk?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , David in Normandy
URL:mailto
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.


Well I thought French regs were no soft solder anywhere? I believe that
brazing is the norm, with plumbers carrying portable oxy-acet.

Good source of info from a professional he

http://www.thefranceforum.net

Have a look for the poster known as Peake. He knows all about French
plumbing and is very helpful.


--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:
In article , David in Normandy
URL:mailto
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.


Well I thought French regs were no soft solder anywhere? I believe that
brazing is the norm, with plumbers carrying portable oxy-acet.

Good source of info from a professional he

http://www.thefranceforum.net

Have a look for the poster known as Peake. He knows all about French
plumbing and is very helpful.



Both are used in France. I bought a plumbing book (in French) specific
to domestic French plumbing and it describes both hard and soft
soldering techniques and French plumbing in general. The existing
plumbing in this house is all soft soldered. You can also buy both at
the local DIY store (Bricomarche).

David in Normandy wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'd say so. They come in all shapes and sizes so your description doesn't
really help.

But it really reinforces what I said earlier about soldering tube -
practice on scrap before doing it for real.



I've cracked it. There were two problems.

1. The nozzle on the lamp gave a much better shaped flame with more blue
in it by adjusting its position a few millimetres further away from the
jet outlet - it now seems to be dragging in more air and giving a more
defined blue pointed flame. The nozzle is held in place by a screw which
bites onto the stem of the jet. It doesn't seem to have any pre-defined
fixing place which surprised me and can just be attached anywhere down
it's length. Only in one position is the flame sharp and blue.

2. I've put a new gas canister on. A Calorgaz one. The new can is a high
power mix of butane AND PROPANE. The old can was just butane.

The two above now mean the joint is hot enough to melt the solder in
around 15 seconds! Huge difference. I guess part of the problem is
getting an old lamp with no instructions and with it not being adjusted
for an optimum flame. Add to this the fact I've never used a blowlamp
before. I live and learn :-)

On with the plumbing now then :-) My T joint is now nicely soldered
(after cleaning it up again and re-fluxing it).

"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
The flame takes on a green hue as you get to the correct temperature.

For some reason that gave me a flash-back to using one of
those old soldering irons that consisted of a wooden handle
holding a bent steel wire with a big lump of copper on the
end that you heated in a fire (or gas ring). I used to enjoy
that.

--
Jón Fairbairn
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2009-01-31)

David in Normandy wrote:
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

Wickes sold you steel wire instead of solder?

On Sat, 09 May 2009 11:33:31 +0200, David in Normandy wrote:

2. I've put a new gas canister on. A Calorgaz one. The new can is a high
power mix of butane AND PROPANE. The old can was just butane.

Not only will that avoid the gas getting too cold to work properly but also
the mixture requires less oxygen so will burn better.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

In article ,
Jon Fairbairn writes:
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
The flame takes on a green hue as you get to the correct temperature.

For some reason that gave me a flash-back to using one of
those old soldering irons that consisted of a wooden handle
holding a bent steel wire with a big lump of copper on the
end that you heated in a fire (or gas ring). I used to enjoy
that.

Reminds me when a wire came unsoldered in my soldering iron...
Used an old screwdriver on the gas stove to solder it back on.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Fri, 08 May 2009 17:07:17 +0000, Mark wrote:

Its also possible with a cooks Crême brulées torch,

Those are great for salvaging useful components from scrap PCBs,
incidentally - although my sister was a bit ****ed off a few years ago
when I 'liberated' hers for such a purpose :-)

Dave Osborne wrote:
David in Normandy wrote:
Today I tried to make a start with the plumbing but have hit a problem.
My blowlamp doesn't get the copper pipe / T joint hot enough to melt the
solder. It is a gas blowlamp that takes the small aerosol type screw on
cans of butane gas.

The flame was full force, bluish tinge to it and after ten minutes
moving the flame around one end of the T joint where the pipe entered it
still wouldn't melt the tip of the reel of (Wickes) plumbing solder when
I touched it against the joint. I gave up at that point. Surely if it
was going to melt the solder it would have done so after a minute or two?

As far as I can see I did a good preparation job. I cleaned the end of
the pipe with wire wool and the inside of the joint with some rolled up
fine Emery cloth. Coated both surfaces immediately with Wickes
traditional flux and pushed them together twisting the joint slightly to
smear the flux evenly inside.

Advice anyone please? Is it simply a case that I need a more powerful
blowlamp?

In increasing order of performance. (In all cases below, a
swirly/cyclone flame burner - if available - is better for soldering
copper pipes than a general purpose burner because it allows you to heat
the joint from one-side only. i.e. the swirly flame wraps around the pipe).

1. Basic* butane blow-lamp with a disposable can.

2. Basic propane/butane blow lamp with a disposable can.

3. Pro** blow lamp/gas torch with Propane gas in a disposable can.

4. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultra gas in a disposable can.

5. Pro gas torch with refillable propane cylinder (What the trade
generally uses for minor jobs/tight spaces).

6. Pro gas torch with MAPP gas or Ultragas with refillable container.

7. Torch-on-a-hose with a 3.9kg Propane cylinder. (What the trade uses
for all general work).

* e.g. older-style Taymar
** e.g. Bernzomatic/Rothenberger/Primus/Sievert

===

For top-performance disposable-can work, I can recommend the
Primus/Sievert 2335 Powerjet Ultra with 8706 cyclone burner.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Primus-2335-.../dp/B000X2GF9A


===

So, what's the difference between a blow-lamp and a gas torch?

Well an old-fashioned 'blow lamp' will have the following features: -

No integrated piezo ignition. (But newer/upscale models now do have this
feature).
Takes a while to warm up (i.e flares-out if you wave it about before
it's warmed up).
Definitely won't work upside down before it's warmed up.
Probably won't work upside down very well at all (or indeed at any
appreciable angle from the vertical).
Doesn't have a swirly cyclone gas pattern.

A modern 'gas torch' will have the following features:

Integrated piezo ignition.
Instant warm-up.
Operation at any angle, including fully inverted without warm-up.
Swirly cyclone gas pattern, so you can heat the joint from one side only.

The trade tends to go for the torch-on-a-hose with 3.9kg propane bottle
solution because it's the cheapest option and you can get different
burners (which go much more powerful than anything with an attached
can/bottle).

===

Classic British manufacturer of gas torches with a rubber hose is
Bullfinch, but they don't do swirly cyclone burners.

http://www.bullfinch-gas.co.uk

===

You can also get similar stuff from Primus-Sievert (but with the option
of swirly cyclone burners).

http://www.lister.co.uk/Uploads/prod...sievertcat.pdf

===

You can buy some Primus Sievert (Swedish made) and lots of
Clarke-branded (Italian-made) stuff from Machine Mart.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/ca...ch/gas-torches

===

and finally, Lidl currently has a offer on for a (German-made, I think)
torch kit for �20 and 2-Bar propane regulator for �10, which is a
reasonable deal, although Machine Mart (spit) has a better value deal
for a kit with three burners(�26.44):

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...h-with-nozzles

Neither of these deals have swirly/cyclone burners.

===

Rothenberger is a mixture of re-branded Bernzomatic/Sievert product.

http://www.rothenberger.com/uploads/...nd_Welding.pdf

===

Some Bernzomatic product is available from Screwfix and larger B&Q stores..

http://www.bernzomatic.com/default.aspx

===

Lastly, if you already have a propane cylinder for some purpose or
other, then you may wish to know that most of these torches/burners
require a regulator set to 2 Bar.

===

Comments & flames (no pun intended!) welcome.
Cheers, Rumble


Mind if I copy that into the wiki?


NT

On Sat, 09 May 2009 07:54:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The flame takes on a green hue as you get to the correct temperature.
But may not be very apparent.

I'd have said that by the time you are blasting copper ions off the pipe
it's too hot. B-) I have seen the green but TBH not noticed at what
stage, the timing of knowing when the pipe is hot enough just comes with
experience of doing joints.

Along with just the time the flame has been on the fitting/pipe I think I
might gauge the temperature by the apperance of the bright cleaned copper
starting to change.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article et,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
The flame takes on a green hue as you get to the correct temperature.
But may not be very apparent.

I'd have said that by the time you are blasting copper ions off the pipe
it's too hot. B-) I have seen the green but TBH not noticed at what
stage, the timing of knowing when the pipe is hot enough just comes with
experience of doing joints.

You can see the flame starting to change colour, though, if you look
carefully.

Along with just the time the flame has been on the fitting/pipe I think
I might gauge the temperature by the apperance of the bright cleaned
copper starting to change.

Indeed. Like I keep on saying with a bit of practice there are a number of
factors which tell you the temperature is correct.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:

Just about any diy blowlamp should be capable of doing this.

It will take a little more heat for French plumbing rather than UK, as
the pipe wall is thicker, but it doesn't make much difference.

They seem to have a whole variety of pipe sizes, as you seem to be able
to get them in 2mm steps if you look hard enough. Wall thickness is a
fraction under 1mm, allowing a single fitting to be used externally on
10mm and internally on 14mm or for 10mm pipe to be soldered directly
into 12mm. All this is assuming that things haven't changed in the 18
years or so since I plumbed most of a house in Brittany.

SteveW
Still the case at Leclerc and Mr Bricolage, but moving more towards PER
(Poly Ethylene Raccord - I think) mostly 12 & 16mm and screw on fittings.

Oh, and still selling imperial sized connectors as well.

Good fun

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out