Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Pete

Pete Verdon wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Only regular cleaning and descaling....

The phosphate dosing treatments will stop heating devices from getting
blocked by scale, but they can't stop the evaporative deposition of
scale you get in showers etc.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Pete Verdon wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I don't
care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out soon
anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going the same
way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Only regular cleaning and descaling....

The phosphate dosing treatments will stop heating devices from getting
blocked by scale, but they can't stop the evaporative deposition of scale
you get in showers etc.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

What works for me in reducing the cleaning is to never use bar soap - greasy
stuff made of fat. Only use liquid soap (I use hand wash as shower soap!) -
shower gels, etc. It seems to be a better "wetting agent" which reduces
water drying on the tiles and screen.

On 24 Apr, 21:29, Pete Verdon
d wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Pete

I was told that you should run cold water through the tap for a few
seconds after using hot water :S.

The scale reducer that seems to be recommended by some plumbers is
called a Combimate.

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:29:24 +0100, Pete Verdon
d had this to say:

Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Move to a soft water area?

:-)

Actually hard water is allegedly supposed to be better for making tea
and general drinking from a health POV.

Why not fit a softener purely for bathroom purposes?
--
Frank Erskine

John Rumm wrote:
Pete Verdon wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off,
as does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the
electromagnetic voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe.
Are there any other alternatives?

Only regular cleaning and descaling....

The phosphate dosing treatments will stop heating devices from getting
blocked by scale, but they can't stop the evaporative deposition of
scale you get in showers etc.

Spot on. Just use an acid based cleaner like Cillit Bang Power Cleaner
Grime & Lime. It really does what it says on the tin/bottle.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Pete Verdon wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Pete
Put in that water softener: you dont have to have an aux tap: Simply run
the kitchen one straight from the mains.


Not only will it save you soap costs, it will save you replacing taps,
shower mixers and shower heads every few years as well.

David wrote:
On 24 Apr, 21:29, Pete Verdon
d wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Pete

I was told that you should run cold water through the tap for a few
seconds after using hot water :S.

The scale reducer that seems to be recommended by some plumbers is
called a Combimate.

A combimate is a phosphate dosing unit - it works well for protecting
heating appliances, but is no use preventing scale deposition in showers
etc.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Pete Verdon wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off,
as does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the
electromagnetic voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe.
Are there any other alternatives?

Pete
Put in that water softener: you dont have to have an aux tap: Simply run
the kitchen one straight from the mains.


Not only will it save you soap costs, it will save you replacing taps,
shower mixers and shower heads every few years as well.

....and the saving in time spent cleaning is amazing.

Pete Verdon d writes:

[...] I
live in a hard water area, and my current shower cubicle is
covered in limescale. [...] if at
all possible I want to avoid the new one going the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener -
[...] Are there any other alternatives?

I keep a squeegee in the bathroom. I've cut it down so that
it's just the right length for the panels of my shower
screen. It only takes a moment to get the water off the
glass and tiles, and I haven't needed to descale the shower
since I started doing this. (Partner prefers using a
cellulose sponge (Spontex) to the squeegee, but the
principle is the same). Of course, it's a matter of taste
whether you prefer doing this at every shower to a regular
descaling routine or a water softener, but the installation
costs are very low (Screwfix part 51880: £5 + a few minutes'
work with an angle grinder¹ and a pair of scissors)

I'd consider fitting a water softener myself, except that
the manual for the combi says not to (might be an issue for
you too).


[1] Do I win this round?
--
Jón Fairbairn
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2009-01-31)

Put in that water softener: you dont have to have an aux tap: Simply run
the kitchen one straight from the mains.


Not only will it save you soap costs, it will save you replacing taps,
shower mixers and shower heads every few years as well.

Don't ion exchange softeners increase sodium levels in the water, or is
that just wrong memory or nonsense? It's what put me off the idea. I use
a lime busting spray (I've used several), left on for twenty minutes,
about once a week. Wipe off with a pan sponge and spray with cold water.
I live in a very hard area and also have to use anti-mould spray. I
think the build-up of scale increases the change of mould colonies.

Peter Scott

Peter Scott wrote:

Put in that water softener: you dont have to have an aux tap: Simply
run the kitchen one straight from the mains.


Not only will it save you soap costs, it will save you replacing taps,
shower mixers and shower heads every few years as well.

Don't ion exchange softeners increase sodium levels in the water, or is
that just wrong memory or nonsense?

Yes. So what?. They swap calcioum for sodium..sidium carbonate is soluble.


It's what put me off the idea.

Why?

More sodium in a bag of crisps than a gallon of softened water.

And it tastes interesting too. Like mineral water ;-)


I use
a lime busting spray (I've used several), left on for twenty minutes,
about once a week. Wipe off with a pan sponge and spray with cold water.
I live in a very hard area and also have to use anti-mould spray. I
think the build-up of scale increases the change of mould colonies.

Peter Scott

On 25 Apr, 06:17, John Rumm wrote:
David wrote:
On 24 Apr, 21:29, Pete Verdon
d wrote:
Some time this summer (having originally intended to have done it by
now...) I'm going to be refitting my bathroom. I live in a hard water
area, and my current shower cubicle is covered in limescale. This I
don't care about, since it's a tatty old thing that'll be ripped out
soon anyway, but if at all possible I want to avoid the new one going
the same way.

I don't really want to get a whole house water softener - the silly
auxiliary tap I've seen by other people's kitchen sinks puts me off, as
does (more seriously) the price. I don't believe in the electromagnetic
voodoo boxes where you wind a cable round the pipe. Are there any other
alternatives?

Pete

I was told that you should run cold water through the tap for a few
seconds after using hot water :S.

The scale reducer that seems to be recommended by some plumbers is
called a Combimate.

A combimate is a phosphate dosing unit - it works well for protecting
heating appliances, but is no use preventing scale deposition in showers
etc.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

Oh thanks I didn't know that, probably why it's called a Combimate -

Invisible Man wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Put in that water softener: you dont have to have an aux tap: Simply
run the kitchen one straight from the mains.

Not only will it save you soap costs, it will save you replacing taps,
shower mixers and shower heads every few years as well.

...and the saving in time spent cleaning is amazing.

OK, perhaps a softener is the answer after all. That gets me thinking on
where to put it.

Unfortunately most of the ground floor pipework is buried in the floor
slab, so my options of where to connect the thing are limited. I can't
easily put it in the cold supply ahead of everything but the kitchen tap
(a pity as the physical location would be handy, but the plumbing would
be a nightmare). I can probably squeeze it into the cupboard with the
boiler, teed into either the boiler cold input or the hot output. I'm
guessing that the cold would be better for a plastic water softener?
Either way, if it's connected to the boiler flow it's not going to be
softening the cold water supply to the bathroom. Is it still likely to
be effective?

Pete

Pete Verdon wrote:
Invisible Man wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Put in that water softener: you dont have to have an aux tap: Simply
run the kitchen one straight from the mains.

Not only will it save you soap costs, it will save you replacing
taps, shower mixers and shower heads every few years as well.

...and the saving in time spent cleaning is amazing.

OK, perhaps a softener is the answer after all. That gets me thinking on
where to put it.

Unfortunately most of the ground floor pipework is buried in the floor
slab, so my options of where to connect the thing are limited. I can't
easily put it in the cold supply ahead of everything but the kitchen tap
(a pity as the physical location would be handy, but the plumbing would
be a nightmare). I can probably squeeze it into the cupboard with the
boiler, teed into either the boiler cold input or the hot output. I'm
guessing that the cold would be better for a plastic water softener?
Either way, if it's connected to the boiler flow it's not going to be
softening the cold water supply to the bathroom. Is it still likely to
be effective?

Pete

I've recently descaled a stainless steel sink just by wiping it over
with vinegar every night for a week. I'm sure if it was done once a
week, instead of every ten years, it would stay sparkling.
It has proved to my satisfaction that the strength of the acid is
neither here nor there when it comes to scale.

Why?

More sodium in a bag of crisps than a gallon of softened water.

And it tastes interesting too. Like mineral water ;-)

Well I don't eat a lot of crisps. Do you know what the amounts are? Are
they comparable to bottled mineral water? I keep my dietary sodium down
for the usual reasons. Presumably though the more calcium there is to
displace the more sodium there will be in the water.

Peter Scott

Stuart Noble wrote:

I've recently descaled a stainless steel sink just by wiping it over
with vinegar every night for a week. I'm sure if it was done once a
week, instead of every ten years, it would stay sparkling.

Maybe, but I'd have more than a sink to wipe down. While I'm happy to
put a lot of work into one-off jobs, I do my best to arrange things so
that repetitive work is minimised. Obviously the kitchen floor isn't
going to be mopping itself any time soon, but if I can arrange a
bathroom that doesn't require constant cleaning to avoid permanent
damage[1] then I will.

Pete

[1] I understand it's impossible to bring glass back to perfect clarity
if it's had enough limescale on it

Peter Scott wrote:


Why?

More sodium in a bag of crisps than a gallon of softened water.

And it tastes interesting too. Like mineral water ;-)

Well I don't eat a lot of crisps. Do you know what the amounts are? Are
they comparable to bottled mineral water? I keep my dietary sodium down
for the usual reasons. Presumably though the more calcium there is to
displace the more sodium there will be in the water.

Correct.

Also if you take in enough potassium, you should be ****ing the lot out
anyway.

Try googling for 'drinking water calcium parts per million' etc to see
what relative levels are/.

Very hard water 500ppm calcium So 500mg of calcium per litre.

So assume half a gram of sodium per liter/softened..

That's about 1/12th of a teaspoonful.

So in the hardest water areas, 12 liters of water a day (6gm) is your
recommended maximum salt intake.

A bag of crisps typically contains the same sodium as 3 liters of
softened (very hard) water..

You will get far more from any preserved foods..sausages, bacon, etc as
well as most starch products like bread/biscuits etc to which salt is
usually added.

Note two things: firstly most people don't like the taste of ion swapped
water. A lot of people use filters or buy bottled for drinking.

Secondly, most people wont soften the kitchen tap. So you can still get
too much calcium and harden your artereies with it, that way ...;-)

Peter Scott

Peter Scott wrote:

As I said I try to keep salt down and don't eat many crisps nor much
processed food. Thanks for the data. Looks like I am probably best off
without a softener.

Or just don't drink the softened water...

(although I accept this may make the plumbing more complicated)



--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Peter Scott wrote:

As I said I try to keep salt down and don't eat many crisps nor much
processed food. Thanks for the data. Looks like I am probably best off
without a softener.

Or just don't drink the softened water...

(although I accept this may make the plumbing more complicated)



After I pointed out that the sodium in softened water is minuscule
compared with almost any other source, and the same as you..don't soften
the kitchen tap if it bothers..

People get religion, and they don't even read what you write.,

On 2009-04-26, John Rumm wrote:
Peter Scott wrote:

As I said I try to keep salt down and don't eat many crisps nor much
processed food. Thanks for the data. Looks like I am probably best off
without a softener.

Or just don't drink the softened water...

(although I accept this may make the plumbing more complicated)

Errm, but the reason to not drink water from an ion exchange water
softener is not just because of the sodium content. The sodium content
may be trivial, but there's no guarantee that the salt you're using
is food grade. Any chemical or microbial contaminants that enter the
salt store of your water softener, will also enter the softened water.
I don't know about you, but I certainly don't use aseptic precautions when
I take the lid off my water softener! You shouldn't drink softened water
for the same reasons that you wouldn't drink water from a loft storage tank.

Anyway, you can always drink beer instead, from a hard water area

--
Jan
who dreams of bathing in rain water, but makes do with Permutit
technology.

Jan Wysocki wrote:
On 2009-04-26, John Rumm wrote:
Peter Scott wrote:

As I said I try to keep salt down and don't eat many crisps nor much
processed food. Thanks for the data. Looks like I am probably best off
without a softener.
Or just don't drink the softened water...

(although I accept this may make the plumbing more complicated)

Errm, but the reason to not drink water from an ion exchange water
softener is not just because of the sodium content. The sodium content
may be trivial, but there's no guarantee that the salt you're using
is food grade. Any chemical or microbial contaminants that enter the
salt store of your water softener, will also enter the softened water.
Are you sure about that?

Firstly, I don't know any microbes that can live on salt.
Secondly, the drinking water is chlorinated for a reason.
Thirdly, I think you will find that salt for softeners is not allowed to
be laced with cyanide.


I don't know about you, but I certainly don't use aseptic precautions when
I take the lid off my water softener! You shouldn't drink softened water
for the same reasons that you wouldn't drink water from a loft storage tank.

Good grief. I have done both for years..(different years) My dog drinks
water from the pond. I have drunk from mountain streams...

I lived for ten years drinking water from a tank in the roof. Only water
there was, pumped from a borehole..H & S came round once in my time
there and took lots of test tubes from the taps and pronounced it safe.

Best water ever.

Anyway, you can always drink beer instead, from a hard water area