I am trying to investigate our inherited central heating pipework and
have some sort of go at balancing the system, I suspect there is some
peculiarity in the system, which was installed and altered in at least 3
separate stages.

I read on the internet that an infra-red thermometer might be handy to
measure in and out temperatures at radiators. Maplin have one on offer,
so I'm now a proud owner.

In general it seems to work well. It doesn't seem terribly accurate, but
amply good enough for what I want.

The mainly inaccessible pipework here is mostly painted white, but some
new pipes are unpainted bare copper. When I point the thermometer at the
bare copper, or at shiny metal connections (presumably plated brass?),
it just reads the ambient room temperature.

Is this as expected? Will I have to paint the copper, and if so, does
the colour matter? Any other advice, and am I wasting my time doing
this?
--
Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
I am trying to investigate our inherited central heating pipework and have
some sort of go at balancing the system, I suspect there is some
peculiarity in the system, which was installed and altered in at least 3
separate stages.

I read on the internet that an infra-red thermometer might be handy to
measure in and out temperatures at radiators. Maplin have one on offer, so
I'm now a proud owner.

In general it seems to work well. It doesn't seem terribly accurate, but
amply good enough for what I want.

The mainly inaccessible pipework here is mostly painted white, but some
new pipes are unpainted bare copper. When I point the thermometer at the
bare copper, or at shiny metal connections (presumably plated brass?), it
just reads the ambient room temperature.

Is this as expected? Will I have to paint the copper, and if so, does the
colour matter? Any other advice, and am I wasting my time doing this?
--
Bill

Yes that is normal - try sticking a piece of black sticky tape on the pipe -
or masking tape that has been blackened with a felt tip marker pen - and
then take a reading. Try pointing it at the sky on a clear dark night as
well, it's mighty cold up there :-)

Peter

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message
...
I am trying to investigate our inherited central heating pipework and have
some sort of go at balancing the system, I suspect there is some
peculiarity in the system, which was installed and altered in at least 3
separate stages.

I read on the internet that an infra-red thermometer might be handy to
measure in and out temperatures at radiators. Maplin have one on offer,
so I'm now a proud owner.

In general it seems to work well. It doesn't seem terribly accurate, but
amply good enough for what I want.

The mainly inaccessible pipework here is mostly painted white, but some
new pipes are unpainted bare copper. When I point the thermometer at the
bare copper, or at shiny metal connections (presumably plated brass?), it
just reads the ambient room temperature.

Is this as expected? Will I have to paint the copper, and if so, does the
colour matter? Any other advice, and am I wasting my time doing this?
--
Bill

Yes that is normal - try sticking a piece of black sticky tape on the
pipe - or masking tape that has been blackened with a felt tip marker
pen - and then take a reading. Try pointing it at the sky on a clear dark
night as well, it's mighty cold up there :-)

Peter


You would expect instructions to give this information!

In article , John wrote:
"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
"Bill" wrote in message

I read on the internet that an infra-red thermometer might be handy to
measure in and out temperatures at radiators. Maplin have one on offer,
so I'm now a proud owner.
[...]
Is this as expected? Will I have to paint the copper, and if so, does the
colour matter? Any other advice, and am I wasting my time doing this?

Yes that is normal - try sticking a piece of black sticky tape on the
[...]
You would expect instructions to give this information!

The instructions for the Maplin IR thermometer I bought not long ago on
special offer did give this information, but I think they've had more
than one model, so maybe the original poster's didn't.

In message , Alan Braggins
writes
In article , John wrote:
"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
"Bill" wrote in message

I read on the internet that an infra-red thermometer might be handy to
measure in and out temperatures at radiators. Maplin have one on offer,
so I'm now a proud owner.
[...]
Is this as expected? Will I have to paint the copper, and if so, does the
colour matter? Any other advice, and am I wasting my time doing this?

Yes that is normal - try sticking a piece of black sticky tape on the
[...]
You would expect instructions to give this information!

The instructions for the Maplin IR thermometer I bought not long ago on
special offer did give this information, but I think they've had more
than one model, so maybe the original poster's didn't.
No, I've even put my glasses on to read through the instructions again
and there is no mention of this. There is a dearer model with two lasers
and a third model, I believe. I just got the £19.99 offer one.

I could only find green and fairly shiny insulating tape and that
doesn't seem to work. Would a small, say 1/2" blob of black paint work?
Presumably it should be matt?

My idea is to work from the boiler to try to track the path the pipes
take, so it needs to be fairly consistent, if not accurate.
--
Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...

I could only find green and fairly shiny insulating tape and that doesn't
seem to work. Would a small, say 1/2" blob of black paint work? Presumably
it should be matt?

My idea is to work from the boiler to try to track the path the pipes
take, so it needs to be fairly consistent, if not accurate.
--
Bill

Tape is the way forward. Get some black pvs electricians tape, put it on
the inlet and outlet of each radiator, and then measuring the temperatures
is a doddle.

BruceB wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
...
I could only find green and fairly shiny insulating tape and that doesn't
seem to work. Would a small, say 1/2" blob of black paint work? Presumably
it should be matt?

My idea is to work from the boiler to try to track the path the pipes
take, so it needs to be fairly consistent, if not accurate.
--
Bill

Tape is the way forward. Get some black pvs electricians tape, put it on
the inlet and outlet of each radiator, and then measuring the temperatures
is a doddle.

Failing that, just take your reading from painted surface of the rad
itself, close to the inlet/outlet. If you are consistent in your choice
of location it ought to be adequate for balancing.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John Rumm
writes
BruceB wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
...
I could only find green and fairly shiny insulating tape and that
doesn't seem to work. Would a small, say 1/2" blob of black paint
work? Presumably it should be matt?

My idea is to work from the boiler to try to track the path the
pipes take, so it needs to be fairly consistent, if not accurate.
-- Bill
Tape is the way forward. Get some black pvs electricians tape, put
it on the inlet and outlet of each radiator, and then measuring the
temperatures is a doddle.

Failing that, just take your reading from painted surface of the rad
itself, close to the inlet/outlet. If you are consistent in your choice
of location it ought to be adequate for balancing.
Sorry to be banging on about this and to be quoting so much, but am I
right to think it's black pvC tape that I need, and presumably a not too
shiny variety?
The actual balancing should be the second stage. I hope to first monitor
the pipes at the boiler, then at the heating and HW valves, then at the
input and output side of each radiator. I'm hoping this will give me
accurate enough readings to produce a guess at the routing of the
pipework, assuming a small temperature drop as the water flows away from
the boiler.
I've done another google on these thermometers and failed to turn up
much new, except one site that did also suggest black paint on the
pipes. The white paint on the radiators seems to transmit fine, although
perhaps it actually the dust!
Tomorrow I'll try to find some sensible black tape though. Shame my
multicoloured 12 rolls for £1 (from my "regular supplier" - Poundland)
didn't work.
--
Bill

Bill wrote:
I am trying to investigate our inherited central heating pipework and
have some sort of go at balancing the system, I suspect there is some
peculiarity in the system, which was installed and altered in at least 3
separate stages.

I read on the internet that an infra-red thermometer might be handy to
measure in and out temperatures at radiators. Maplin have one on offer,
so I'm now a proud owner.

In general it seems to work well. It doesn't seem terribly accurate, but
amply good enough for what I want.

The mainly inaccessible pipework here is mostly painted white, but some
new pipes are unpainted bare copper. When I point the thermometer at the
bare copper, or at shiny metal connections (presumably plated brass?),
it just reads the ambient room temperature.

Is this as expected? Will I have to paint the copper, and if so, does
the colour matter? Any other advice, and am I wasting my time doing this?

I bought one of these some years ago and I found that the best way to
find the temp. drop across a rad was to measure on the input side of the
rad, starting from where the water comes in, going up to the top of the
rad above this point, just to see where the hottest point is. Point the
thermometer at the rad as close to the outlet as you can and you have
the temp of the spent heat.

I tried using the pipes as a reference, but gave up in the end. I have
to do it all over again now, I've just found out that SWTSMBO has been
tinkering with our rads and she has managed to turn off the lock shield
valves on some, as she couldn't reach the SOV with enough grip :-(

Dave

Bill wrote:

Sorry to be banging on about this and to be quoting so much, but am I
right to think it's black pvC tape that I need, and presumably a not too
shiny variety?

The material matters more than the colour in this case, and dull
surfaces are better than polished ones. The reason is that the
thermometer has to make an assumption about the emissivity of the
surface it is looking at (although some of the posher ones actually
allow you to change this assumed value). The thermometer will probably
assume an emissivity in the range 0.95, however a metallic surface will
tend to have much lower emissivity than that. Reflective ones can
complicate it further since you can see reflected surfaces in them.

If you try an experiment with different types of tape (Insulating,
Masking etc) you will find there is little practical difference between
the values you will read.

The actual balancing should be the second stage. I hope to first monitor
the pipes at the boiler, then at the heating and HW valves, then at the
input and output side of each radiator. I'm hoping this will give me
accurate enough readings to produce a guess at the routing of the
pipework, assuming a small temperature drop as the water flows away from
the boiler.

You won't see much drop along a length of pipe - unless it is carrying a
very low flow rate.

I've done another google on these thermometers and failed to turn up
much new, except one site that did also suggest black paint on the
pipes. The white paint on the radiators seems to transmit fine, although
perhaps it actually the dust!

The emissivity for most non polished organic/painted/oxidized surfaces
is close enough to give accurate results regardless. After all you are
only interested in relative differences.

Tomorrow I'll try to find some sensible black tape though. Shame my
multicoloured 12 rolls for £1 (from my "regular supplier" - Poundland)
didn't work.

Try masking tape. The fact it is not black will make little difference.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , Dave
writes

I tried using the pipes as a reference, but gave up in the end. I have
to do it all over again now, I've just found out that SWTSMBO has been
tinkering with our rads and she has managed to turn off the lock
shield valves on some, as she couldn't reach the SOV with enough grip :-(

Fit caps which don't engage the valve stem. I have found locking tabs on
wall stats useful as well:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 04:21:06 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Bill wrote:

Sorry to be banging on about this and to be quoting so much, but am I
right to think it's black pvC tape that I need, and presumably a not too
shiny variety?

The material matters more than the colour in this case, and dull
surfaces are better than polished ones. The reason is that the
thermometer has to make an assumption about the emissivity of the
surface it is looking at (although some of the posher ones actually
allow you to change this assumed value). The thermometer will probably
assume an emissivity in the range 0.95, however a metallic surface will
tend to have much lower emissivity than that. Reflective ones can
complicate it further since you can see reflected surfaces in them.

If you try an experiment with different types of tape (Insulating,
Masking etc) you will find there is little practical difference between
the values you will read.

The actual balancing should be the second stage. I hope to first monitor
the pipes at the boiler, then at the heating and HW valves, then at the
input and output side of each radiator. I'm hoping this will give me
accurate enough readings to produce a guess at the routing of the
pipework, assuming a small temperature drop as the water flows away from
the boiler.

You won't see much drop along a length of pipe - unless it is carrying a
very low flow rate.

I've done another google on these thermometers and failed to turn up
much new, except one site that did also suggest black paint on the
pipes. The white paint on the radiators seems to transmit fine, although
perhaps it actually the dust!

The emissivity for most non polished organic/painted/oxidized surfaces
is close enough to give accurate results regardless. After all you are
only interested in relative differences.

Tomorrow I'll try to find some sensible black tape though. Shame my
multicoloured 12 rolls for £1 (from my "regular supplier" - Poundland)
didn't work.

Try masking tape. The fact it is not black will make little difference.

I've tried masking tape and ther readings I get are all over the
place. i.e. it keeps fluctuating by 15C. I don't think the
thermometer is faulty since it gives good readings on everything else.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

In article ,
Mark writes:

I've tried masking tape and ther readings I get are all over the
place. i.e. it keeps fluctuating by 15C. I don't think the
thermometer is faulty since it gives good readings on everything else.

Put the measurement opening close against the tape, and
note that the laser aim is completely wrong when close
(turn it off, if you can).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Bill wrote:
Failing that, just take your reading from painted surface of the rad
itself, close to the inlet/outlet. If you are consistent in your choice
of location it ought to be adequate for balancing.

Sorry to be banging on about this and to be quoting so much, but am I
right to think it's black pvC tape that I need, and presumably a not too
shiny variety?

Ordinary PVC tape works fine with mine. But then again it seems to work on
bare copper or chrome pipes too. Dunno how accurately, but certainly
doesn't read room temperature on hot pipes.

--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Mark writes:
I've tried masking tape and ther readings I get are all over the
place. i.e. it keeps fluctuating by 15C. I don't think the
thermometer is faulty since it gives good readings on everything else.

Put the measurement opening close against the tape, and
note that the laser aim is completely wrong when close
(turn it off, if you can).

Yup, tis what I was going to say - use a wide masking tape or a couple
of adjacent strips, and hold the unit an inch or two away from the pipe.

(my one has a scale embossed on the top that shows the size of the
sampling area and how it varies with distance; it is approx 1" at 8",
rising by another 1" for each additional 8". So to read a pipe and not
an average of a pipe and adjoining wall etc, one would need to be no
further away than 4", and that is with perfect aim)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave wrote:
SNIP

I tried using the pipes as a reference, but gave up in the end. I have
to do it all over again now, I've just found out that SWTSMBO has been
tinkering with our rads and she has managed to turn off the lock
shield valves on some, as she couldn't reach the SOV with enough grip
:-(

Mine does that as well. Drives me mad. No idea of how CH & rads work, but
can't resist the urge to twiddle.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Dave wrote:
SNIP
I tried using the pipes as a reference, but gave up in the end. I have
to do it all over again now, I've just found out that SWTSMBO has been
tinkering with our rads and she has managed to turn off the lock
shield valves on some, as she couldn't reach the SOV with enough grip
:-(

Mine does that as well. Drives me mad. No idea of how CH & rads work, but
can't resist the urge to twiddle.

Mine is the same with remote controls and expects the receiving product
to respond instantly :-(

Dave

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:55:51 +0000, Dave wrote:

Mine is the same with remote controls and expects the receiving product
to respond instantly :-(

A pet hate of mine is devices that don't respond in some way when I press
a remote button. Even flashing a light is enough otherwise you don't know
if the command has been received. Without some feedback and a wait of say
5 seconds you press the button again and then the device compounds the
problem by queueing it rather than throwing it away as it's busy but
hasn't told you. This applies to that bog awful OS Windows, if there isn't
an hour glass shown as far as I'm concerned the system is ready for my
command but quite a lot of the time it isn't, it may or may not ignore a
command so it's even worse by being inconsistent.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Yeah you're right, infrared thermometer is very handy. But I want to share also with you my experienced with my thermometer, the non- contact forehead thermometer all you need to do it place the device on or near to your child's skin, press the button and wait a few seconds for the readout to flash up on screen. This is perfect for use on a squirming and uncomfortable child who refuses to sit still. For more information take a look at Thermee by GingerKids | Non-Contact Forehead Thermometer