Anyone in Scotland installed their own?

Looking at
http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/tech_handbook...tic%202009.pdf
doesn't seem to include any words indicating that it *must* be installed
professionally.

From section 4.9.1
Leaving aside the advisability of DIY installation, is there anything that
actually precludes a DIY installation by a competant person?

Tim

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Anyone in Scotland installed their own?

Looking at
http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/tech_handbook...tic%202009.pdf
doesn't seem to include any words indicating that it *must* be installed
professionally.

From section 4.9.1

Quote:

Competence of installers This might include current membership of a registration scheme operated by a recognised professional body. This could include those administered by the Scottish and Northern Ireland Plumbing Employers Federation (SNIPEF) and the Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) or an equivalent body. The following points should be noted in relation to installation of an unvented hot water storage system: . the installer should be a competent person and, on completion, the labelling of the installation should identify the installer; . the installed system should be meet the recommendations of BS 7206: 1990 or be the subject of an approval by a notified body and incorporate the safety devices outlined in clause 4.9.2 ; . certification of the unit or package should be recorded by permanent marking and a warning label which should be visible after installation. A comprehensive installation/user manual should be supplied; . the tundish and discharge pipework should be correctly located and fitted by the installer and the final discharge point should be visible and safely positioned where there is no risk from hot water discharge. The operation of the system under discharge conditions should be tested

Leaving aside the advisability of DIY installation, is there anything that
actually precludes a DIY installation by a competant person?

Tim

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

"Requirement G3 does not apply to -


(a) a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a capacity
of 15 litres or less;

(b) a system providing space heating only;

(c) a system which heats or stores water for the purposes only of an
industrial process."

Your link was non-domestci.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

I think you'll find that article refers to England and Wales.


Your link was non-domestci.

True. Here's the right link (for Scotland).

http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/tech_handbook...estic_2008.pdf

Says the same thing though so it would seem that DIY is theoretically
possible.

Tim

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

"Requirement G3 does not apply to -

(a) a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a capacity
of 15 litres or less;

Interesting potential loophole in that it doesn't say has _only_ a storage
vessel with a capacity of 15 litres of less.....

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

I think you'll find that article refers to England and Wales.


Your link was non-domestci.

True. Here's the right link (for Scotland).

http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/tech_handbook...estic_2008.pdf

Says the same thing though so it would seem that DIY is theoretically
possible.

Another document clearly states DIY is out.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

I think you'll find that article refers to England and Wales.


Your link was non-domestci.

True. Here's the right link (for Scotland).

http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/tech_handbook...estic_2008.pdf

Says the same thing though so it would seem that DIY is theoretically
possible.

Another document clearly states DIY is out.

Where?

You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You seem a bit
confused.

Tim

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

I think you'll find that article refers to England and Wales.


Your link was non-domestci.

True. Here's the right link (for Scotland).

http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/tech_handbook...estic_2008.pdf

Says the same thing though so it would seem that DIY is theoretically
possible.

Another document clearly states DIY is out.

Where?

You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You seem a
bit confused.

That is not DIY as such. You pay for the BCO, which is not cheap. Many
BCO's do not do it and farm it out to an approved man, as they do with Part
P in electric. You may as well pipe up the cylinder, and remove it. Then
get an approved man to connect, fill and test. I see no reason why a DIYer
can't do the lot as long as it is not filled up with water, then get an
approved man to fill and test and sign off.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You
seem a bit confused.

That is not DIY as such.

Is that the sound of backpedalling I hear?

Tim

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message

You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You
seem a bit confused.

That is not DIY as such.

Is that the sound of backpedalling I hear?

Not at all. You can install it with BCO approval, if he decides he wants to
take it on. You can install it all and leave it dry and have an approved
man check, fill, test and sign off. Either way it is not DIY as in
installing a gas boiler, as a professional is involved with the unvented
cylinder installation.

You clearly cannot service any part of the cylinder as a DIYer and they need
one every year. They are a waste of expensive time, use a vented heat bank,
far, far better and does the CH too and can be DIYed and no expensive annual
service.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message

You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You
seem a bit confused.

That is not DIY as such.

Is that the sound of backpedalling I hear?

Not at all. You can install it with BCO approval, if he decides he
wants to take it on.

I think you're the only one who can't hear it.

You can install it all and leave it dry and
have an approved man check, fill, test and sign off. Either way it
is not DIY as in installing a gas boiler, as a professional is
involved with the unvented cylinder installation.

You clearly cannot service any part of the cylinder as a DIYer and
they need one every year.

So you keep saying but won't provide any evidence that this has to be done
by a professional

They are a waste of expensive time, use a
vented heat bank, far, far better and does the CH too and can be
DIYed and no expensive annual service.

Vented heat bank may not be suitable if your boiler is in your loft.

Tim

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message

You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You
seem a bit confused.

That is not DIY as such.

Is that the sound of backpedalling I hear?

Not at all. You can install it with BCO approval, if he decides he
wants to take it on.

I think you're the only one who can't hear it.

You can install it all and leave it dry and
have an approved man check, fill, test and sign off. Either way it
is not DIY as in installing a gas boiler, as a professional is
involved with the unvented cylinder installation.

You clearly cannot service any part of the cylinder as a DIYer and
they need one every year.

So you keep saying but won't provide any evidence that this has to be done
by a professional

It is there so look!!!!! Find it yourself - cheeky sod!. You brought up
the topic. You have been gioven some linsk so get the rest.

They are a waste of expensive time, use a
vented heat bank, far, far better and does the CH too and can be
DIYed and no expensive annual service.

Vented heat bank may not be suitable if your boiler is in your loft.

Then stick that in the loft too. Or you can also heat the heat bank via a
coil or preferably a plate heat exchanger to heat the cylinder top-down,
solving that problem.

Ask don't go on as it you know it all - which you clearly do not.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:00:47 -0000 someone who may be "Tim Downie"
wrote this:-

Vented heat bank may not be suitable if your boiler is in your loft.

I tend to the view that someone who puts a boiler in a loft deserves
everything they get. Boilers are best placed where the heat they
give off, which will never be zero, does something useful before it
leaves the building.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:08:38 +0000, Alan Braggins wrote:

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

"Requirement G3 does not apply to -

(a) a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a
capacity
of 15 litres or less;

Interesting potential loophole in that it doesn't say has _only_ a
storage vessel with a capacity of 15 litres of less.....

Are you think that if you install half a dozen 15 litre units in parallel
then you can get around the rules 8-).

The intention of the rule is to separate out the smaller unvented
cylinders usually electrically heated and intended for single point
usage.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:08:38 +0000, Alan Braggins wrote:

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

"Requirement G3 does not apply to -

(a) a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a
capacity
of 15 litres or less;

Interesting potential loophole in that it doesn't say has _only_ a
storage vessel with a capacity of 15 litres of less.....

Are you think that if you install half a dozen 15 litre units in parallel
then you can get around the rules 8-).

The intention of the rule is to separate out the smaller unvented
cylinders usually electrically heated and intended for single point
usage.

He can fit a number of 15 litre units and DIY it. But why, when he can fit
a vented heat bank and DIY that.

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:08:38 +0000, Alan Braggins wrote:

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

"Requirement G3 does not apply to -

(a) a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a
capacity
of 15 litres or less;

Interesting potential loophole in that it doesn't say has _only_ a
storage vessel with a capacity of 15 litres of less.....

Are you think that if you install half a dozen 15 litre units in parallel
then you can get around the rules 8-).

The intention of the rule is to separate out the smaller unvented
cylinders usually electrically heated and intended for single point
usage.

He can fit a number of 15 litre units and DIY it. But why, when he can fit
a vented heat bank and DIY that.

_As worded_ it would appear you could fit a 15 litre unit and a 300 litre
unit, and the result would be a system that has a storage vessel with a
capacity of 15 litres or less. That doesn't make it a good idea.

But tell me more about the servicing requirements. When Nu-Heat replaced
my failed vented heat bank with an unvented one because they didn't do
vented ones any more, no servicing requirement was mentioned.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message

You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You
seem a bit confused.

That is not DIY as such.

Is that the sound of backpedalling I hear?

Not at all. You can install it with BCO approval, if he decides he
wants to take it on.

I think you're the only one who can't hear it.

You can install it all and leave it dry and
have an approved man check, fill, test and sign off. Either way it
is not DIY as in installing a gas boiler, as a professional is
involved with the unvented cylinder installation.

You clearly cannot service any part of the cylinder as a DIYer and
they need one every year.

So you keep saying but won't provide any evidence that this has to be
done by a professional

It is there so look!!!!! Find it yourself - cheeky sod!. You brought up
the topic. You have been gioven some linsk so get the rest.

I've not seen any info pertaining to a legal requirement for an annual
professional inspection so far. If you can't point to them or find them
just say so.


They are a waste of expensive time, use a
vented heat bank, far, far better and does the CH too and can be
DIYed and no expensive annual service.

Vented heat bank may not be suitable if your boiler is in your loft.

Then stick that in the loft too. Or you can also heat the heat bank via a
coil or preferably a plate heat exchanger to heat the cylinder top-down,
solving that problem.

I know I could use an indirect thermal store or other system but the thread
was about DIYing unvented cylinders, not a platform for you to parrot on
about thermal stores & heat banks.

Tim

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:00:47 -0000 someone who may be "Tim Downie"
wrote this:-

Vented heat bank may not be suitable if your boiler is in your loft.

I tend to the view that someone who puts a boiler in a loft deserves
everything they get. Boilers are best placed where the heat they
give off, which will never be zero, does something useful before it
leaves the building.

I wouldn't disagree but when our boiler was installed, house extensions at
the time meant that options were very limited without getting into some
expensive flu options & condensate pumps etc.

Tim

"Alan Braggins" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:08:38 +0000, Alan Braggins wrote:

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

G3:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

"Requirement G3 does not apply to -

(a) a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a
capacity
of 15 litres or less;

Interesting potential loophole in that it doesn't say has _only_ a
storage vessel with a capacity of 15 litres of less.....

Are you think that if you install half a dozen 15 litre units in
parallel
then you can get around the rules 8-).

The intention of the rule is to separate out the smaller unvented
cylinders usually electrically heated and intended for single point
usage.

He can fit a number of 15 litre units and DIY it. But why, when he can
fit
a vented heat bank and DIY that.

_As worded_ it would appear you could fit a 15 litre unit and a 300 litre
unit, and the result would be a system that has a storage vessel with a
capacity of 15 litres or less. That doesn't make it a good idea.

????? Fit 300 litre and is less than 15 litre? Wow! Tardus in reverse.

But tell me more about the servicing requirements. When Nu-Heat replaced
my failed vented heat bank with an unvented one because they didn't do
vented ones any more, no servicing requirement was mentioned.

______________
G3 SECTION 3 SYSTEMS UP TO 500 LITRES AND 45 kW

Where unvented hot water storage systems means an unvented vessel for either
:

a. storing domestic hot water for subsequent use; or

b. heating domestic water that passes through an integral pipe or coil (eg
water jacketed tube heater/combi boiler)

and fitted with safety devices to prevent water temperatures exceeding 100º
C and other applicable operating devices to control primary flow, prevent
backflow, control working pressure and accommodate expansion. "
_____________

So, b)

b. heating domestic water that passes through an integral pipe or coil (eg
water jacketed tube heater/combi boiler)

So, an unvented vessel that heats DHW passing through an integral pipe or
coil, which can be either a water jacketed tube heater (a normal integral
DHW coil) or combi boiler.

I think the "combi boiler" means the plate heat exchanger needs an unvented
ticket. But says "integral". A combi cannot be integral.

Combi boilers and multi-points can be used to heat DHW in unvented cylinders
using a brass pump for circulation.

It omits immersion heaters - they don't have water passing through coils.

Nu-Heat
Look at the presurised thermal store (heat bank really):
http://www.nu-heat.co.uk/core/media/...817&_ xt=.pdf

It says:
"No G3 building regulations approval required, the unit can be fitted by any
competent installer". So, it can be DIYed.

a) If a pressurised thermal store (integral DHW coil), then G3 applies
b) If a pressurised hrat bank (using aplate heat exchnager), then G3 does
not apply.

Nu-Heat use a plate heat exchanger, not an ingeral coil, so no G3.

Have a look here -
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm

It states this -

Requirement G3 does not apply to -

(a) a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a capacity of
15 litres or less;

(b) a system providing space heating only;

(c) a system which heats or stores water for the purposes only of an
industrial process.

Now....

Nu-heat, the makers of the thermal store say a pressurised thermal store
does not require an unvented ticket to install, as the DHW content in the
plate heat exchanger is not an integral coil. That is correct. The boiler,
cylinder and heating circuit are all the same water pressurised to 1 bar
(cold) - heated from cold the pressure never gets above 2 bar inside the
cylinder. They operate on far less pressures than the vast majority of
unvented cylinders. An unvented cylinder requires a pressure relief valve on
the cylinder and a high temperature relief valve off the cylinder too.

A pressurised thermal store requires only one pressure relief valve between
the boiler and cylinder, as per normal sealed systems - they are set to 3.5
bar. In effect the pressurised cylinder is regarded as a bigger pipe in the
system. The cylidners come with one and there is one on the boiler, so two
on the system. I personally would put two pressure relief valves on or near
the cylinder with two separate pipes as one pipe might get blocked for some
reason - just in case, so three in all. They are cheap. No tundish is
needed. A high-limt temperature cut off stat on the cylidner would be a
good idea too.

The 210 litre pressurised store takes a 24 litre expansion vessel which
copes with the boiler, cylinder and CH circuit.

Got it? If I was you, I would put an extra pressure relief valve on a pipe
very near to the top of your cylinder - just to be sure.

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message

You've said it's possible with BCO checking in another post. You
seem a bit confused.

That is not DIY as such.

Is that the sound of backpedalling I hear?

Not at all. You can install it with BCO approval, if he decides he
wants to take it on.

I think you're the only one who can't hear it.

You can install it all and leave it dry and
have an approved man check, fill, test and sign off. Either way it
is not DIY as in installing a gas boiler, as a professional is
involved with the unvented cylinder installation.

You clearly cannot service any part of the cylinder as a DIYer and
they need one every year.

So you keep saying but won't provide any evidence that this has to be
done by a professional

It is there so look!!!!! Find it yourself - cheeky sod!. You brought up
the topic. You have been gioven some linsk so get the rest.

I've not seen any info pertaining to a legal requirement for an annual
professional inspection so far. If you can't point to them or find them
just say so.


They are a waste of expensive time, use a
vented heat bank, far, far better and does the CH too and can be
DIYed and no expensive annual service.

Vented heat bank may not be suitable if your boiler is in your loft.

Then stick that in the loft too. Or you can also heat the heat bank via a
coil or preferably a plate heat exchanger to heat the cylinder top-down,
solving that problem.

I know I could use an indirect thermal store or other system but the
thread was about DIYing unvented cylinders, not a platform for you to
parrot on about thermal stores & heat banks.

Heat banks a near zero-risk and superior all around. Only fools fit unvented
cylidners. I see which one you are.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Tim Downie" wrote in message
I know I could use an indirect thermal store or other system but the
thread was about DIYing unvented cylinders, not a platform for you to
parrot on about thermal stores & heat banks.

Heat banks a near zero-risk and superior all around. Only fools fit
unvented cylidners. I see which one you are.

*yawn*

Still can't answer the question about annual certification I see.

TIm

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

????? Fit 300 litre and is less than 15 litre?

No, 15 litres is 15 litres or less.


But tell me more about the servicing requirements. When Nu-Heat replaced
my failed vented heat bank with an unvented one because they didn't do
vented ones any more, no servicing requirement was mentioned.

Nu-Heat
Look at the presurised thermal store (heat bank really):
[...]
Nu-Heat use a plate heat exchanger, not an ingeral coil, so no G3.

That's not true of all Nu-Heat supplied stores. Mine has a coil.
(In fact two, one DHW, one underfloor heating.)

"Alan Braggins" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

????? Fit 300 litre and is less than 15 litre?

No, 15 litres is 15 litres or less.


But tell me more about the servicing requirements. When Nu-Heat replaced
my failed vented heat bank with an unvented one because they didn't do
vented ones any more, no servicing requirement was mentioned.

Nu-Heat
Look at the presurised thermal store (heat bank really):
[...]
Nu-Heat use a plate heat exchanger, not
an ingeral coil, so no G3.

That's not true of all Nu-Heat supplied stores.
Mine has a coil. (In fact two, one DHW, one
underfloor heating.)

The one with the plate heat exchanger does not come under G3. If you have
an internal DHW take off coil and it is pressurised, it comes under G3.
That is pretty clear.

Blah Blah G3. If you have Blah Blah , it comes under G3. That is pretty
clear.


As the OP originally asked, do the G3 regs apply to Scotland at all?

Your link ( http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2000/20002531.htm ) is a link to:

2000 No. 2531
BUILDING AND BUILDINGS ***ENGLAND AND WALES***
The Building Regulations 2000

( My emphasis. )

Building regs in Scotland are different, hence no Part-P etc.
( despite B&Q posting part-P warnings at the electrical shelves, even in
Scotland . ).


So the OP's question remains un-answered.

To the OP: is it possible: cough yes.
Is it legal?
Don't know. The plumbers doing the extension here at Lowe Towers didn't
bat an eyelid or ask anything, nor did the the council bod who has popped
in from time to time. Of course, it was a pre-existing installation in
regards to our current building work, and so is not in the current scope of
work, nor in anyone's spotlight.

"Dunno mate. I guess it must have been like that when we moved in."

--
Ron

"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message
...

Blah Blah G3. If you have Blah Blah , it comes under G3. That is pretty
clear.


As the OP originally asked, do the G3 regs apply to Scotland at all?

Scotland is a colony and should do what we say.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Scotland is a colony and should do what we say.


Actually, England is a colony of Scotland. That is why Scotland has its
own Government, but England is ruled by a government led by a Scot.

Andy

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Scotland is a colony and should do what we say.


Actually, England is a colony of Scotland. That is why Scotland has its
own Government, but England is ruled by a government led by a Scot.

Andy

The capital of the UK is in ENGLAND!!!!

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Scotland is a colony and should do what we say.


Actually, England is a colony of Scotland. That is why Scotland has its
own Government, but England is ruled by a government led by a Scot.

Andy

Yes we know. thats why we are in such a mess. Send them all back and let
only English MPs vote on English matters

Robbie