Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

John Nagelson wrote:

Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical?
Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses).

On Dec 7, 3:41*pm, Andy Burns wrote:
John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical?
Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses).

True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives
large figures for (mass) x (height).

But maybe with concrete or old cars?
Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy?
I'm only thinking about at a domestic level.

John

"John Nagelson" wrote in message
...
On Dec 7, 3:41 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical?
Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses).

True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives
large figures for (mass) x (height).

But maybe with concrete or old cars?
Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy?
I'm only thinking about at a domestic level.

John

____

Take a read of chapter 4 of Prof David Mackays fantastic book on sustainable
energy: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/s...ok/tex/cft.pdf (10
meg download)

I think actually harvesting sufficient wind energy in the first place is
problem zero.


D

John Nagelson wrote:
On Dec 7, 3:41 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.
So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?
E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?
They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical?
Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses).

True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives
large figures for (mass) x (height).

But maybe with concrete or old cars?
Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy?
I'm only thinking about at a domestic level.


When you look at energy density, for any form of storage of usable
energy, you find a scale, and the lowest on the scale is mass times
height systems.

Much better is mass times velocity squared, and heat. Both of those can
be large in small spaces and volumes. At moderate heats too.

Then comes chemical energy, liquid fuels, batteries and the like. Things
start to get pretty compact. Self contained portable power units of
sensible dimensions become possible.

At the top of the scale is nuclear energy.


John

John Nagelson wrote:
On Dec 7, 3:41 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.
So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?
E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?
They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical?
Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses).

True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives
large figures for (mass) x (height).

But maybe with concrete or old cars?
Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy?
I'm only thinking about at a domestic level.

John

Getting four tonnes of material isn't a problem.

But what mechanism have you got that would raise that four tonnes 100
metres straight up?

Or 40 tonnes 10 metres?

Or 400 tonnes one metre?

The raising and lowering has to be a) safe; b) controlled; c) connected
to some sort of generator.

And all that for a measly 1 kWh.

Maybe if you had an arrangement which used your whole house as the
weight? But the cost of making it (in financial and resources terms)
would be prohibitive.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:

But what mechanism have you got that would raise that four tonnes 100
metres straight up?

I haven't got one, I was just pointing out the scale of the problem

And all that for a measly 1 kWh.

Exactly.

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:09:00 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Rod wrote:

But what mechanism have you got that would raise that four tonnes 100
metres straight up?

I haven't got one, I was just pointing out the scale of the problem

And all that for a measly 1 kWh.

Exactly.

The only place I've seen this work is in an LED standard lamp - you
manually lift a mildly heavy weight from floor to 5' off the ground, then
it falls slowly while running a generator (through a gearbox) for a
couple of hours.

If you're seriously looking at this sort of thing you need to get your
whole house consumption down from 1kW average (what ours is while
occupied, TV on etc.) to a few hundred watts at most.

John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

a persistant myth
http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....y_construction


So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

how would you arrange gearing? Or would you have it only charge when
half max windspeed were reached, and throw away any extra energy at
higher speeds?

Have you calculated what mass and height you'd use?


NT

wrote:

Have you calculated what mass and height you'd use?

Fiddle with the numbers in google calculator

http://google.com/search?q=(3675+kg)...kilowatt+hours

On 7 Dec, 15:42, wrote:
John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

a persistant mythhttp://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lead_acid_battery_const...


This is crazy.

I am far from an elfinsafetee fan. So, OK for a few-off cells by
someone technically competent - but on a 'home-industrial" scale? That
is idiotic.

It is bulk H2SO4 you would be playing with. Have you ever had a
sulphuric acid burn? Even a small spot stings like hell and it takes
weeks for the scar to heal. Not to mention the mass of volatile ions
being spurted into the air Could you be sure you could contain it
safely? AND be sure no idiot tests the water with their finger....
Solve all those problems and you'd still have potential risks from
lead contamination of the househild environment.

Car batteries are surrounded by a rugged rubberised casing & sealed,
but even so cases have been known to split.

Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical
household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? How much
space it would take? And there is all the trouble of handling a DC
supply.

However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water
directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator
(s). That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with
all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you
need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no
cloud cover).

It might be possible to extend such a scheme to space heating and to
charging electric car batteries, but same objections apply. Even then
you'd find extensive costs when it comes to implementation,

Wind is popularly regarded as "free" energy. But it is no cheaper
than the oil and coal lying free underground. Just like for coal and
oil, spending starts when you start to build & run the infrastructure
to extract the energy.

Alas, an idiot's "don't try this at home" message needs appending to
the wiki article: as if anyone could be so stupid...

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember jim
saying something like:

a persistant mythhttp://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lead_acid_battery_const...


This is crazy.

I am far from an elfinsafetee fan. So, OK for a few-off cells by
someone technically competent - but on a 'home-industrial" scale? That
is idiotic.

It is bulk H2SO4 you would be playing with. Have you ever had a
sulphuric acid burn? Even a small spot stings like hell and it takes
weeks for the scar to heal. Not to mention the mass of volatile ions
being spurted into the air Could you be sure you could contain it
safely? AND be sure no idiot tests the water with their finger....
Solve all those problems and you'd still have potential risks from
lead contamination of the househild environment.

Car batteries are surrounded by a rugged rubberised casing & sealed,
but even so cases have been known to split.

Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical
household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? How much
space it would take? And there is all the trouble of handling a DC
supply.

However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water
directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator
(s). That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with
all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you
need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no
cloud cover).

It might be possible to extend such a scheme to space heating and to
charging electric car batteries, but same objections apply. Even then
you'd find extensive costs when it comes to implementation,

Wind is popularly regarded as "free" energy. But it is no cheaper
than the oil and coal lying free underground. Just like for coal and
oil, spending starts when you start to build & run the infrastructure
to extract the energy.

Alas, an idiot's "don't try this at home" message needs appending to
the wiki article: as if anyone could be so stupid...


Ah right; those thousands of people who are living off-grid with medium
to large battery banks must all be living in fear and trembling of
getting burnt or blowing up.
Hint: we're not all as stupid as you think we are.

On 7 Dec, 19:05, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember jim
saying something like:





a persistant mythhttp://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lead_acid_battery_const...

This is crazy.

I am far from an elfinsafetee fan. *So, OK *for a few-off cells by
someone technically competent - but on a 'home-industrial" scale? That
is idiotic.

It is bulk H2SO4 you would be playing with. *Have you ever had a
sulphuric acid burn? *Even a small spot stings like hell and it takes
weeks for the scar to heal. *Not to mention the mass of volatile ions
being spurted into the air * Could you be sure you could contain it
safely? *AND be sure no idiot tests the water with their finger....
Solve all those problems and you'd still have potential risks from
lead contamination of the househild environment.

Car batteries are surrounded by a rugged rubberised casing & sealed,
but even so cases have been known to split.

Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical
household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? *How much
space it would take? *And there is all the trouble of handling *a DC
supply.

However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water
directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator
(s). *That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with
all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you
need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no
cloud cover).

It might be possible to extend such a scheme to space heating and to
charging electric car batteries, but same objections apply. *Even then
you'd find extensive costs when it comes to implementation,

Wind is popularly regarded as "free" energy. *But it is no cheaper
than the oil and coal lying free underground. *Just like for coal and
oil, spending starts when you start to build & run the infrastructure
to extract the energy.

Alas, an idiot's "don't try this at home" message needs appending to
the wiki article: as if anyone could be so stupid...

Ah right; those thousands of people who are living off-grid with medium
to large battery banks

what constructed as shown in the wiki article?

If you mean properly a constructed robust and sealed lead acid battery
bank (as used in telephone exchanges) then no problem: but the poster
pointed at the wiki article as the way to do it. He is welcome to the
experience - for as long as he can drag it out..

//

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST), jim
wrote:

(Can't believe I'm actually replying to this...)

Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical
household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? How much
space it would take? And there is all the trouble of handling a DC
supply.

Well, in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours. I got
the 20 AGMs as a matched but used set as scrap from an AVS electric bus
battery pack.

A good alternative is a 48 volt, 500 amp-hour fork-lift battery. They're
recycled when they fail to run a whole shift. That is, with most of their
life remaining. Again, easily purchased for scrap value which is currently
about 5 cents a pound.


However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water
directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator
(s). That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with
all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you
need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no
cloud cover).

Well, this whole thread is silly and those of us who can do simple math are
just funning around. Anyone who thinks that they're going to supply their
house with 20kWh of wind power on a daily basis cheaper than the utility power
is smoking something MIGHTY FINE!

My UPS is grid-charged and is here for the week-long outages we frequently
have in the winter up here in the mountains. As far as hassles, there are
none. The main UPS is over 15 years old and has never needed even its ears
scratched, much less any attention. AGMs don't need attention and don't leak
acid so no corroded connectors to deal with. I do look at it every so often
just to make sure all the lights that should be green ARE green but other than
that, it simply occupies some floor space in the basement. BFD.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

Neon John wrote in
:



A good alternative is a 48 volt, 500 amp-hour fork-lift battery.
They're recycled when they fail to run a whole shift. That is, with
most of their life remaining. Again, easily purchased for scrap value
which is currently about 5 cents a pound.

Those forklift batteries are so freaking heavy you may as well use them as
the mass for the gravitational potential energy storage

You could charge the batteries till they were full and then use the lifting
on them as the diversion load

ha hah ha

On 7 Dec, 19:29, Neon John wrote:
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST), jim
//


Well, in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours.

that is (assuming you can drain the last drop out of the battery)
2.4KWhr - a perfectly valid emergency supply
*I got
the 20 AGMs as a matched but used set as scrap from an AVS electric bus
battery pack.

and you have it bunded - ie it is in your cellar.

& it is NOT the Heath Robinson brew suggested by the wiki article.

//


Well, this whole thread is silly and those of us who can do simple math are
just funning around. *Anyone who thinks that they're going to supply their
house with 20kWh of wind power on a daily basis cheaper than the utility power
is smoking something MIGHTY FINE!

Oh yes? There's loads of idiots out there, including govt ministers
and advisers and civil servants, who obviously cannot do the simple
sums & do not think it is a silly idea. And they are right there in
the middle of govt putting up all of our elec bills.

The daft idea has got out that wind energy is 'free' and all you do is
put up a fan, plug it into the mains and lie back whilst the cheques
roll in. It is perhaps inexhaustable, but is it truly renewable? The
expected life of a wind turbine is c.30years. Not very long as
electrical generation infrastructure goes. Plus there is a large plug
of expensive-energy-consumed concrete under it.

jim wrote:

On 7 Dec, 19:29, Neon John wrote:

in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours.

that is (assuming you can drain the last drop out of the battery)
2.4KWhr - a perfectly valid emergency supply

24kWh, more than a days worth for most homes, especially if you realise
it's an emergency and can cut down on usage to make it last.

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:10:35 -0800 (PST), jim
wrote:

On 7 Dec, 19:29, Neon John wrote:
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST), jim
//


Well, in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours.

that is (assuming you can drain the last drop out of the battery)
2.4KWhr - a perfectly valid emergency supply

You might want to check your decimal. It slipped a notch. Last time I
checked, 24 volts times 1 kilo-amp-hour is 24 kWh.

*I got
the 20 AGMs as a matched but used set as scrap from an AVS electric bus
battery pack.

and you have it bunded - ie it is in your cellar.

WTF is bunded. Yep, in my basement, sitting on concrete in two rows of 10
batteries in a series/parallel string. The manufacturer recommends regularly
discharging them to 80%. That's not a limit but a recommended DOD. Yes, these
are traction batteries and no, they're not standby batteries. I do take them
down that far every so often because that is the recommended treatment. In
normal use, I'd be hard pressed to take 'em down 25% before I need to run the
generator for cooking or water heating and thus power the 200 amp charger.

& it is NOT the Heath Robinson brew suggested by the wiki article.

That guy was a total knucklehead, which is why I clipped his URL.

BTW, I have a book here dating from the 20s that instructs one on building
"pasteless batteries" using a process a bit more sophisticated but similar to
that guy's. this one involves several plates, separated by cedar wood spacers
and formed into battery plates by hooking an Edison lamp in series with the
110 volt DC lighting service. the Edison lamps were what? 4 watts or
something like that? Forming took several weeks according to the book.

Well, this whole thread is silly and those of us who can do simple math are
just funning around. *Anyone who thinks that they're going to supply their
house with 20kWh of wind power on a daily basis cheaper than the utility power
is smoking something MIGHTY FINE!

Oh yes? There's loads of idiots out there, including govt ministers
and advisers and civil servants, who obviously cannot do the simple
sums & do not think it is a silly idea. And they are right there in
the middle of govt putting up all of our elec bills.

The daft idea has got out that wind energy is 'free' and all you do is
put up a fan, plug it into the mains and lie back whilst the cheques
roll in. It is perhaps inexhaustable, but is it truly renewable? The
expected life of a wind turbine is c.30years. Not very long as
electrical generation infrastructure goes. Plus there is a large plug
of expensive-energy-consumed concrete under it.

No energy source is actually renewable in the traditional meaning of the word.
Of course, this has become a religion and like in all religions, common
everyday words get twisted and distorted.

By any rational definition of "renewable", a breeder reactor is the MOST
renewable since it makes more fuel than it consumes. OH, did I use the word
"rational"? My bad.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Serenity: That feeling of knowing that your secretary will never tell either of your wives.

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:10:35 -0800 (PST) someone who may be jim
wrote this:-

Oh yes? There's loads of idiots out there, including govt ministers
and advisers and civil servants, who obviously cannot do the simple
sums & do not think it is a silly idea. And they are right there in
the middle of govt putting up all of our elec bills.

The RO scheme was costing each household £9 a year in 2007. £2.25 a
quarter, somewhat less than the price of a pint of beer.

To this one should add the various energy efficiency schemes, around
£10 per quarter and around £12 for the EU emissions trading scheme.

The estimate was that in 2008 all these measures would increase
bills by £9 per year.

http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/publications/downloads/DomesticEnergyPriceAnalysis.pdf

I'm not a fan of the emissions trading debacle, but I think the rest
is money well spent.

The daft idea has got out that wind energy is 'free' and all you do is
put up a fan, plug it into the mains and lie back whilst the cheques
roll in.

I think that this idea is only a feature of straw man arguments.

It is perhaps inexhaustable, but is it truly renewable? The
expected life of a wind turbine is c.30years. Not very long as
electrical generation infrastructure goes.

What we are beginning to see often happens is that the original wind
farm is repowered after a decade or so and the old wind turbines
re-used elsewhere. The Dancing Ladies of Gigha are an example of
re-used turbines
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/SustainableDevelopment/CaseStudies/DancingLadiesofGigha.

Plus there is a large plug of expensive-energy-consumed concrete under it.

Vestas included the "large" amount of concrete in their studies
http://www.vestas.com/en/about-vestas/sustainability/wind-turbines-and-the-environment/life-cycle-assessment-(lca).aspx.
I will be interested in seeing your rebuttals.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Neon John wrote:

My UPS is grid-charged and is here for the week-long outages we frequently
have in the winter up here in the mountains. As far as hassles, there are
none. The main UPS is over 15 years old and has never needed even its ears
scratched, much less any attention. AGMs don't need attention and don't leak
acid so no corroded connectors to deal with. I do look at it every so often
just to make sure all the lights that should be green ARE green but other than
that, it simply occupies some floor space in the basement. BFD.

What whole house UPS system do you have John?

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:30:31 -0600, wrote:

Neon John wrote:

My UPS is grid-charged and is here for the week-long outages we frequently
have in the winter up here in the mountains. As far as hassles, there are
none. The main UPS is over 15 years old and has never needed even its ears
scratched, much less any attention. AGMs don't need attention and don't leak
acid so no corroded connectors to deal with. I do look at it every so often
just to make sure all the lights that should be green ARE green but other than
that, it simply occupies some floor space in the basement. BFD.

What whole house UPS system do you have John?

A neon-john junk-box special. :-) There is an old APS 2kW (I think, the
nameplate is long gone) computer UPS that is over 15 years old. That runs
most of my "vital bus" which consists of lighting, a refrigerator and my
computers. The rest of the system is a series of cheap inverters that power
either individual loads like freezers or clusters of loads that are likely to
be operated at the same time. I'm currently saving my nickels to get a 3.5kw
ChiCom special, 24 volt input inverter for my wellpump. My 2.5kw inverter
just barely won't start the pump. It tries but the over current trips before
the pump is fully up to speed. It would probably start the pump if I let it
start unloaded of pressure.

Just about everything is junk that I've picked up here and there. I bought
the batteries when lead was high and paid 10 cents a pound for a ton of lead
or $200. Cheaper'n dirt in my book.

My ultimate goal is to have a bank of cheap inverters under the vital bus
breaker panel, each branch having its own inverter. The light switch in my
bedroom, for example, sends 24 volts through a contactor to a 200 watt
inverter that is sufficient for all the CF lights in the room. (actually 100
watts would do it but I picked up a bunch of no-name 200 watt unit for $5 ea).
This gives me multi-way redudancy in my power supply (multiple inverters),
minimizes inverter standby losses and minimizes what I spend on things. I've
probably spent more money on welding cable than anything else.

I had the opportunity last summer to strip out 10 of the AVS electric buses
that were built in nearby Chattanooga, TN. that got me such nicities as a box
full of KiloVac Czonka contactors, disconnect switches and so on. Everything
I need to handle the low voltage side of my inverter-per-load scheme.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that I have under $500 in the system, most of
that being for the lead and for welding cable. the 3.5kw inverter is going to
almost double that, which is why I've held off. I need to figure out if it's
worth $350 being able to flush the toilet after every use, which is about all
putting the well on the UPS will do. And enhanced fire protection, of course.

It'd be just my luck to have a flue fire or something and the generator
choose that time not to start. Having the fire hose on the UPS will be very
nice.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
What do you call a blonde's cranial cavity? Vacuum chamber?

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 07:42:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:

John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

a persistant myth
http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....y_construction


So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

how would you arrange gearing? Or would you have it only charge when
half max windspeed were reached, and throw away any extra energy at
higher speeds?

Have you calculated what mass and height you'd use?


http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm

Pump it up and use it when you need it

Alang wrote:

http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm

If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of
flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good
at maths...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
et...
Alang wrote:

http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm

If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of
flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good
at maths...


My other half is also an engineer and she admires Carol Vorderman. I asked
her if it was because Carol was a good engineer? No. Is it because she
trained in an almost all male environment and still made it through? No.
OK, I give in. Why is it you admire Carol Vorderman? She married a good
looking guy and got a job on the TV.

Sheesh!!! Women.

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:51:39 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Alang wrote:

http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm

If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of
flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good
at maths...

Jeremy Clarkson can drive too

Alang wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:51:39 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Alang wrote:

http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm
If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of
flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good
at maths...

Jeremy Clarkson can drive too

Thats a matter of opinion.;-)

"John Nagelson" wrote in message
...
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

Umm do you have any idea on the weight required.

I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW.

Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply.

Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m.

PE = mgh

2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr

48kWhr = 173MJ

Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes 100%
efficiency in recovering the energy.

Yep, sounds practical to me!

"Richard Head" wrote in message
...

"John Nagelson" wrote in message
...
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

Umm do you have any idea on the weight required.

I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW.

Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply.

Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m.

PE = mgh

2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr

48kWhr = 173MJ

Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes
100% efficiency in recovering the energy.

Yep, sounds practical to me!

I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back
in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy
when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start
vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve
the necessary power transfers.
Interesting though!!
Don

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back
in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy
when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start
vehicle

I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which
explored the idea.

The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would
have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped
it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across
the city.

That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus
could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a
gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis
once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings
/ mountings of the flywheel.

but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve
the necessary power transfers.

Intuitively I feel sure that could be done magnetically / electrically

Derek

Derek Geldard wrote:
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back
in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy
when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start
vehicle

I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which
explored the idea.

The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would
have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped
it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across
the city.

That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus
could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a
gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis
once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings
/ mountings of the flywheel.

but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve
the necessary power transfers.

Intuitively I feel sure that could be done magnetically / electrically

Derek



I met Laithwaite around that time and was somewhat caught up in his
obsession with gyros for a while.

The gyro effect in this case is quite easily overcome if you are using
electric transmission, the flywheel assembly can be mounted on gimbals
and the axis remain vertical regardless of the incline. Otherwise the
front wheels will come off the ground when you go downhill!

I don't have a reference, but I remember reading about steam-era
shunting locomotives (used as I recall in quarries), that used flywheel
power storage, recharged periodically from a stationary boiler.

One set-up that intrigued me was a pair of counter-rotating flywheels on
a common axis in an evacuated chamber. I felt it had to be good for
something, but apart from land mines I don't know what.


Tim Jackson

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:14:18 +0000, Tim Jackson wrote:


I don't have a reference, but I remember reading about steam-era
shunting locomotives (used as I recall in quarries), that used flywheel
power storage, recharged periodically from a stationary boiler.

I'm somewhat of a railroad buff, and at least in America, I've never heard of
a flywheel powered locomotive. There WERE stored energy locomotives however.
Commonly known as "thermos bottle" locomotives, they were charged with
superheated water from a stationary boiler and subsequently operated for
several hours on the stored heat. They were very popular in powerhouses and
coal yards for obvious reasons (no fire hazard) and in places like steel mills
were they had to operate indoors.

here are some photos of thermos locomotives, on display at the Railroad Museum
of Pennsylvania. I especially like the Pennsylvania Power one which looks
most like a conventional locomotive.

http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/Thermos_01.jpg
http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/Thermos_02.jpg
http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/Thermos_03.jpg

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. -Marie Curie

Derek Geldard wrote:
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back
in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy
when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start
vehicle

I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which
explored the idea.

The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would
have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped
it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across
the city.

That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus
could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a
gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis
once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings
/ mountings of the flywheel.

but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve
the necessary power transfers.

Intuitively I feel sure that could be done magnetically / electrically

Derek

Next years F1 cars are using a system of this sort I think.

In article ,
wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:47:06 +0000, Derek Geldard
wrote:

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back
in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy
when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start
vehicle

I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which
explored the idea.

The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would
have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped
it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across
the city.

That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus
could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a
gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis
once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings
/ mountings of the flywheel.


The effect on the handling of a gyroscope is mentioned in this article
http://photo.proaktiva.eu/digest/2008_gyrobus.html

Not the same as mentioned by Donwill, these were an attempt to have
electrically powered buses without the overhead wires required by a
Trolleybus. Not too successfully as it turned out but they did run
and did not manage to destroy their surroundings.


Here in the UK this company seems to have been around promoting
Flywheel storage for ages.
http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/ but I don't think any commercial
operation has started yet.

They tried it in Bistol for a while, but I think it's now closed. A
quick google found:

http://www.tramdev.clara.net/parrypic.htm

Gordon

In article ,
wrote:

The effect on the handling of a gyroscope is mentioned in this article
http://photo.proaktiva.eu/digest/2008_gyrobus.html


Heh, having read that, I find I've lost an hour of my life to searching for
wierd gyroscope vehicles on the internet Damn wikipedia...

Mind you, how cool/terrifying does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail
look!?

Darren

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote:


"Richard Head" wrote in message
...

"John Nagelson" wrote in message
...
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

Umm do you have any idea on the weight required.

I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW.

Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply.

Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m.

PE = mgh

2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr

48kWhr = 173MJ

Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes
100% efficiency in recovering the energy.

Yep, sounds practical to me!

I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back
in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy
when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start
vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve
the necessary power transfers.
Interesting though!!
Don

Swiss
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l-firsts-.html

Alang wrote:

I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses
back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed
energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop
and start vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train
to achieve the necessary power transfers.
Interesting though!!
Don

Swiss
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ywheel-firsts-
.html

British.

Double deckers buses featuring flywheels were manufactured in the 1930s.
They featured in the "Modern Wonder" magazine.

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:03:29 +0000, (Steve Firth)
wrote:

Alang wrote:

I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses
back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed
energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop
and start vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train
to achieve the necessary power transfers.
Interesting though!!
Don

Swiss
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ywheel-firsts-
.html

British.

Double deckers buses featuring flywheels were manufactured in the 1930s.
They featured in the "Modern Wonder" magazine.

Always thought it was the Swiss. They were the only ones I ever heard
of actually running a service.

Any links to the British buses on line?

Richard Head wrote:
"John Nagelson" wrote in message
...
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in
such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the
amount of electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

Umm do you have any idea on the weight required.

I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW.

Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply.

Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m.

PE = mgh

2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr

48kWhr = 173MJ

Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that
assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy.

Yep, sounds practical to me!

Tsk! How are we going to achieve anything if people are so negative. Thats
only 1.6 million 1 kg bags bags of flour. All you need to do is build such
systems next to large bakeries and you have solved two problems in one e.g.
energy & storage.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 7 Dec, 16:33, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Richard Head wrote:
"John Nagelson" wrote in message
....
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in
such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the
amount of electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John

Umm do you have any idea on the weight required.

I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW.

Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply.

Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m.

PE = mgh

2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr

48kWhr = 173MJ

Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that
assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy.

Yep, sounds practical to me!

Tsk! *How are we going to achieve anything if people are so negative. *Thats
only 1.6 million 1 kg bags bags of flour. *All you need to do is build such
systems next to large bakeries and you have solved two problems in one e.g.
energy & storage.

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Hmm - that 'll be same flour as in your 'flour essence' lights then;
seems then that bags of milled wheat might be the solution to our
lighting then !

Rob

"John Nagelson" wrote in message
...
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive.

So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy?

E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such
a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of
electrical power you need?

??

Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries.

John


OK lets run with it.

Suppose you could build a machine that could lift a 100 ton weight 10 metres
with 100% efficiency.

Suppose you could then recover that energy with 100% efficiency.

The "potential energy" once it is fully lifted would be:

m * g * h = approx 10 Megajoules = under 3 kilowatt hours.

A typical home probably uses at least 3000 kwh per year.

A 100 ton weight would mean about a 4.7 metre cube of concrete.

Something in the back of my head says this is not practical.


D