I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts



Chris

wrote in message
...
I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Do you need to?
If you disconnect the switch end and the fitting then the transformers
should be doing nothing.

On Nov 21, 8:39*am, wrote:
I want to change the *12v downlighters in my kitchen *for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights *and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic *activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen *( 20 ft).

Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.

Would an EMF meter help *or are they just for ghosts


What about one of those cable detectors sold by the DIY sheds? Switch
on the lights so the transformer is live of course!

Or, detect the magnetic field by using a small coil of wire connected
to the input socket of an audio amplifier. move the coil around
listening for the loudest 'hum'.

Or, see if you can hear the transformer humming. Switch the lights on
and creep around on the floor above your ear to the ground. best to
do this at night when it's quiet.

Robert

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:01:07 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

I want to use the existing switches and wiring and the power supply
that must be in the ceiling already.

Chris



wrote in message
.. .
I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Do you need to?
If you disconnect the switch end and the fitting then the transformers
should be doing nothing.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:39:08 +0000, wrote:

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights

12v wiring tends to be short or if not short very heavy due to not wanting
to lose to many volts in the wiring. Be aware that the "transformer" these
days might be a small SMPSU not a couple of coils around a gert lump of
iron.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

A radio tuned to a quiet part of the MW wave band might pick up switching
noise from a SMPSU but it won't detect the stray field from a traditional
transformer. The coil of wire and audio amp should detect the stray 50Hz
field from a traditional transformer but 50Hz is quite low for a small low
power speaker to reproduce.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
wrote:
I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

*If* you're lucky the transformers will have been inserted afterwards, so
remove each fitting and see if you can pull them out of the hole. They
could drive more than one lamp so you'd need to check them all.
But an older installation could use transformers too large for this trick
so has been wired from above.

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

RobertL wrote:

On Nov 21, 8:39*am, wrote:
I want to change the *12v downlighters in my kitchen *for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights *and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic *activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen *( 20 ft).

Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.

Do the downlights pull out of the ceiling? Each one should then
provide a hole you can, with the aid of a mirror, peer through.
If this is what you have already done, then you should at least
be able to get an idea of the cable run, and rule out some
potential locations. A compact digital camera is also very handy
for seeing where you cannot get your eyes.

What is in the room above? Are these lights original, or a later
addition? If the latter, have you looked at the floorboards in
the room above? There may (indeed should if they cannot be
reached from below) be an access point.

What about one of those cable detectors sold by the DIY sheds? Switch
on the lights so the transformer is live of course!

If the detector can tell the difference between ac and dc, you
might be on a winner there. Otherwise how can you determine
which bit of the circuit contains the "transformer".

Or, detect the magnetic field by using a small coil of wire connected
to the input socket of an audio amplifier. move the coil around
listening for the loudest 'hum'.

Or, see if you can hear the transformer humming. Switch the lights on
and creep around on the floor above your ear to the ground. best to
do this at night when it's quiet.

The "transformer" could actually be an electronic device rather
than a traditional core and windings, so neither the hum nor the
external field may be detectable.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

thanks so far.

Lights are from when house built 18 years ago have already taken out
to look

Transformers in roof for upstairs room lights are traditional so
assume these are same vintage

Access from above very difficult fitted carpet and large sheets of
chipboard.



Small coil ? could do with more info .



Chris

wrote:

thanks so far.

Lights are from when house built 18 years ago have already taken out
to look

Transformers in roof for upstairs room lights are traditional so
assume these are same vintage

if you mean the heavy iron types then youre looking for 50Hz


Access from above very difficult fitted carpet and large sheets of
chipboard.



Small coil ? could do with more info .

100 turns of enamelled copper wire round a pencil should do it.
Connect to the mic input of any pocket audio device and listen. The
coil picks up the 50Hz field near it.

If you've got a scrap electronic item, many have a suitable coil in
them. A plastic cased earphone or headphones may also work.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
Transformers in roof for upstairs room lights are traditional so
assume these are same vintage

Access from above very difficult fitted carpet and large sheets of
chipboard.

I'd still say it's easier to lift the carpet and cut some traps in the
chipboard. Well it would be for me over making good holes in a ceiling.;-)

--
*If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
...
I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Chris


When the lights were fitted, did the electrician leave access from the floor
above? Look for a hatch in the floor, probably with screws holding it down.

Pull one of the lights to see if it pulls the transformer toward you.

Pull all the lights out of the ceiling and tug them toward you. You should
hear the larger transformer banging around in the ceiling.

Are the lights actually Low Voltage? Mains voltage version of these
downlighters are also available. Make sure yours aren't mains voltage and
that there is no transformer.

BigWallop wrote:
wrote in message
...

I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Chris


When the lights were fitted, did the electrician leave access from the floor
above? Look for a hatch in the floor, probably with screws holding it down.

Pull one of the lights to see if it pulls the transformer toward you.

Pull all the lights out of the ceiling and tug them toward you. You should
hear the larger transformer banging around in the ceiling.

Are the lights actually Low Voltage? Mains voltage version of these
downlighters are also available. Make sure yours aren't mains voltage and
that there is no transformer.

Somehow I dont think a 100w 50Hz transformer is going to do any
banging about.


NT

wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
wrote in message
...

I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Chris


When the lights were fitted, did the electrician leave access from the
floor
above? Look for a hatch in the floor, probably with screws holding it
down.

Pull one of the lights to see if it pulls the transformer toward you.

Pull all the lights out of the ceiling and tug them toward you. You
should
hear the larger transformer banging around in the ceiling.

Are the lights actually Low Voltage? Mains voltage version of these
downlighters are also available. Make sure yours aren't mains voltage
and
that there is no transformer.

Somehow I dont think a 100w 50Hz transformer is going to do any
banging about.

NT


Didn't word that bit quite right. What I meant was the cables going to the
transformer banging about. At least you'd get the right direction to hunt
in.

Anywhoooo. :-) Can just imagine yanking a 250VA Iron Core out the loft
space. That would bang about a bit. LOL

wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
wrote in message
...

I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Chris


When the lights were fitted, did the electrician leave access from the
floor
above? Look for a hatch in the floor, probably with screws holding it
down.

Pull one of the lights to see if it pulls the transformer toward you.

Pull all the lights out of the ceiling and tug them toward you. You
should
hear the larger transformer banging around in the ceiling.

Are the lights actually Low Voltage? Mains voltage version of these
downlighters are also available. Make sure yours aren't mains voltage
and
that there is no transformer.

Somehow I dont think a 100w 50Hz transformer is going to do any
banging about.



No but you just might be able to hear it with a home made stethoscope
(plastic tubing pressed to ceiling)


--
Michael Chare

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
wrote in message
...

I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Chris


When the lights were fitted, did the electrician leave access from the
floor
above? Look for a hatch in the floor, probably with screws holding it
down.

Pull one of the lights to see if it pulls the transformer toward you.

Pull all the lights out of the ceiling and tug them toward you. You
should
hear the larger transformer banging around in the ceiling.

Are the lights actually Low Voltage? Mains voltage version of these
downlighters are also available. Make sure yours aren't mains voltage
and
that there is no transformer.

Somehow I dont think a 100w 50Hz transformer is going to do any
banging about.


No but you just might be able to hear it with a home made stethoscope
(plastic tubing pressed to ceiling)


They also sometime give a kick when turned on which you might be able to
hear.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:25:47 +0000,

wrote:




More thanks - better particulars

I have plasterer coming in to do the walls so a few holes in the
ceiling no problems New ceiling a NO NO

I can see inside the ceiling void between the joists and there are no
transformers.

Definatley 12v Ive checked the bulbs. Switches are 240v



Chris


thanks so far.

Lights are from when house built 18 years ago have already taken out
to look

Transformers in roof for upstairs room lights are traditional so
assume these are same vintage

Access from above very difficult fitted carpet and large sheets of
chipboard.



Small coil ? could do with more info .



Chris

explained :
I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

No good for this :-)

You could take out the lights and use a light and mirror to see if you
can see where the cable goes, that should lead you back to the
transformer.

A loop of several turns of small wire, connected to an old crystal
earpiece would produce a 50Hz hum, when brought near a transformer (if
it is a proper transformer and turned on.

A metal detector would also find the above, if its sat on the ceiling
plaster.

A medium wave portable radio should pick up the hash from a more modern
switch mode type 'transformer'.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

BigWallop wrote:
wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
wrote in message
...

I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts

Chris


When the lights were fitted, did the electrician leave access from the
floor
above? Look for a hatch in the floor, probably with screws holding it
down.

Pull one of the lights to see if it pulls the transformer toward you.

Pull all the lights out of the ceiling and tug them toward you. You
should
hear the larger transformer banging around in the ceiling.

Are the lights actually Low Voltage? Mains voltage version of these
downlighters are also available. Make sure yours aren't mains voltage
and
that there is no transformer.

Somehow I dont think a 100w 50Hz transformer is going to do any
banging about.

NT


Didn't word that bit quite right. What I meant was the cables going to the
transformer banging about. At least you'd get the right direction to hunt
in.

ah, good idea

Yanking the wire from each light fitting might help locate it further
if need be, since they'll all point vaguely towards the transformer.


Anywhoooo. :-) Can just imagine yanking a 250VA Iron Core out the loft
space. That would bang about a bit. LOL

ha


NT

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:39:08 +0000,

wrote:

Thanks to all. I salvaged a coil from and old transformer and
connected it to the mike socket of a Laptop. As i test i went to a
place where a transformer lurked and bingo mains hum turned off the
light and it disappeared. However a scan of the ceiling in question
and no sight of transformers. I did pick up the route of some mains
cables though.


thanks for all your help



Chris


I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts



Chris

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:04:27 +0000,


YIPPEE

Modified the rig to put it on the end of a stick with a wheel to make
scanning the ceiling easier and found both transformers side by side
in the ceiling of the adjacent hall. Access was via a trapdoor in the
hall floor above.

Result !!!!

wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:39:08 +0000,

wrote:

Thanks to all. I salvaged a coil from and old transformer and
connected it to the mike socket of a Laptop. As i test i went to a
place where a transformer lurked and bingo mains hum turned off the
light and it disappeared. However a scan of the ceiling in question
and no sight of transformers. I did pick up the route of some mains
cables though.


thanks for all your help



Chris


I want to change the 12v downlighters in my kitchen for mains
tracklighting using low energy bulbs.I want to use the existing
switches.

Ive looked in the ceiling space near the lights and in a couple of
speculative test holes in the ceiling and there is no sign.

Ive tried a radio to pick up the mains electomagnetic activity,
nothing .

I can see the wires from the switches ( mains ) disapearing into a
bunch of wires heading for the far end of the kitchen ( 20 ft).


Can anyone suggest a teqnique for locating the transformers without
pulling half the ceiling down. If in fact they are in the ceiling.


Would an EMF meter help or are they just for ghosts



Chris