Well, actually, rather than being green and thinking of the environment,
it's my pocket I'm thinking about.

In an effort to cut our gas bill I'm trying to get the family used to having
our programmer/room stat set at 20C instead of previous years where it's
been normal to have it at around 22-23C. The condensing combi boiler is up
in the loft and the guy who installed the system (which was already in when
we bought the house last year) installed the room stat in the living room.

A sort of an unintended side-effect of the desire to cut our bills is that
the living room seems to reach the required temperature of 20C quite easily
and the stat then shuts off the boiler, resulting in the rest of the house
being cold - or at least colder than son in his bedroom doing his homework,
daughter in her bedroom, and anyone wanting a shower, would like it to be.

The programmer/roomstat thingy is wireless so I can move it with minimal
disruption but the living room rad has no valves, which I know is the
correct way of doing things. I would think that the hallway would be a
better location for the stat but that rad has a TRV fitted. Am I alright in
just opening this TRV and telling everyone in the house that it must remain
permanently and fully open? I know it's a "bodge" and really, if I want to
move the stat I should drain the system, take the TRV off the hallway rad,
and install it on the living room rad, but that's such a lot of messing and
I'd rather wait until the system has to be drained for whatever reason and
do it all then.

TIA

John wrote:

I would think that the hallway would be a
better location for the stat but that rad has a TRV fitted. Am I alright
in just opening this TRV and telling everyone in the house that it must
remain permanently and fully open?

Yes.

I know it's a "bodge" and really, if I
want to move the stat I should drain the system, take the TRV off the
hallway rad, and install it on the living room rad, but that's such a lot
of messing and I'd rather wait until the system has to be drained for
whatever reason and do it all then.

It's not a bodge. What happens in a few months time if you decide that the
wireless stat would have been better in a different room instead of the
hallway? Just leave the TRV fully open, it'll be fine. If you're concerned
that somebody might turn it down then just remove the head from the top of
the TRV.

OTOH getting an extra TRV and fitting it to the living room radiator might
be worth doing when you get the chance.

--
Mike Clarke

Mike Clarke wrote:
John wrote:

I would think that the hallway would be a
better location for the stat but that rad has a TRV fitted. Am I
alright in just opening this TRV and telling everyone in the house
that it must remain permanently and fully open?

Yes.

I know it's a "bodge" and really, if I
want to move the stat I should drain the system, take the TRV off the
hallway rad, and install it on the living room rad, but that's such
a lot of messing and I'd rather wait until the system has to be
drained for whatever reason and do it all then.

It's not a bodge. What happens in a few months time if you decide
that the wireless stat would have been better in a different room
instead of the hallway? Just leave the TRV fully open, it'll be fine.
If you're concerned that somebody might turn it down then just remove
the head from the top of the TRV.

OTOH getting an extra TRV and fitting it to the living room radiator
might be worth doing when you get the chance.

Ah, brilliant. Thanks Mike.

"John" wrote in message
...
Well, actually, rather than being green and thinking of the environment,
it's my pocket I'm thinking about.

In an effort to cut our gas bill I'm trying to get the family used to
having our programmer/room stat set at 20C instead of previous years where
it's been normal to have it at around 22-23C. The condensing combi boiler
is up in the loft and the guy who installed the system (which was already
in when we bought the house last year) installed the room stat in the
living room.

A sort of an unintended side-effect of the desire to cut our bills is that
the living room seems to reach the required temperature of 20C quite
easily and the stat then shuts off the boiler, resulting in the rest of
the house being cold - or at least colder than son in his bedroom doing
his homework, daughter in her bedroom, and anyone wanting a shower, would
like it to be.

The programmer/roomstat thingy is wireless so I can move it with minimal
disruption but the living room rad has no valves, which I know is the
correct way of doing things. I would think that the hallway would be a
better location for the stat but that rad has a TRV fitted. Am I alright
in just opening this TRV and telling everyone in the house that it must
remain permanently and fully open? I know it's a "bodge" and really, if I
want to move the stat I should drain the system, take the TRV off the
hallway rad, and install it on the living room rad, but that's such a lot
of messing and I'd rather wait until the system has to be drained for
whatever reason and do it all then.

TIA

That's what i'm currently doing, trying to find the best place for the stat.
Also, being a tightarse, i'm closing off bedroom rads in the daytime and
loung rads at night.
I miss the direct heat from a gas fire in the lounge so I can see me buying
one.
The hall is no good for my stat, as you say, it warms up easily so
everywhere else is cold.
My stat moves to the lounge in daytime and to moms bedroom at night.
You can't win, when mom gets up before us she goes to the cold lounge.
I must quit being a tightarse.

John wrote:



Mike Clarke wrote:

If you're concerned that somebody might turn it down



Mike Clarke wrote:

John wrote:

In an effort to cut our gas bill I'm trying to get the family used
to having our programmer/room stat set at 20C instead of previous
years where it's been normal to have it at around 22-23C.

Well good luck with that...

I know it's a "bodge" and really, if I want to move the stat I
should drain the system, take the TRV off the hallway rad, and

It's not a bodge. What happens in a few months time if you decide
that the wireless stat would have been better in a different room
instead of the hallway? Just leave the TRV fully open, it'll be fine.
If you're concerned that somebody might turn it down

Hah! Like there's any risk of that happening...

David
Sorry, just a cynical 'family man'... ;-)

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:32:33 -0000, John wrote:

In an effort to cut our gas bill I'm trying to get the family used to
having our programmer/room stat set at 20C instead of previous years
where it's been normal to have it at around 22-23C.

That's a big drop to do in one go, you'll get complaints. B-))

Drop it by 0.5C every 2 or 3 weeks and they might not notice as they'll
get used to it.

A sort of an unintended side-effect of the desire to cut our bills is
that the living room seems to reach the required temperature of 20C
quite easily and the stat then shuts off the boiler, resulting in the
rest of the house being cold - or at least colder than son in his
bedroom doing his homework, daughter in her bedroom, and anyone wanting
a shower, would like it to be.

Is the system balanced and the radiators properly sized for the rooms they
are in? With both of those correct the house should heat up evenly, but if
there are lot of people in the living room all chucking out heat that room
will stay warm as the rest of the house cools. So shifting the stat to the
hall might be a good idea, simply remove the head from the TRV in there.

--
Cheers
Dave.

John wrote:


better location for the stat but that rad has a TRV fitted. Am I alright in
just opening this TRV and telling everyone in the house that it must remain
permanently and fully open? I know it's a "bodge" and really, if I want to

Just unscrew the thermostatic head from the valve body (no water will
escape - its just taking the knob off in effect). That will leave it
like a manual valve that is permanently open.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
"John" writes:
Well, actually, rather than being green and thinking of the environment,
it's my pocket I'm thinking about.

In an effort to cut our gas bill I'm trying to get the family used to having
our programmer/room stat set at 20C instead of previous years where it's
been normal to have it at around 22-23C. The condensing combi boiler is up
in the loft and the guy who installed the system (which was already in when
we bought the house last year) installed the room stat in the living room.

A sort of an unintended side-effect of the desire to cut our bills is that
the living room seems to reach the required temperature of 20C quite easily
and the stat then shuts off the boiler, resulting in the rest of the house
being cold - or at least colder than son in his bedroom doing his homework,
daughter in her bedroom, and anyone wanting a shower, would like it to be.

The programmer/roomstat thingy is wireless so I can move it with minimal
disruption but the living room rad has no valves, which I know is the
correct way of doing things. I would think that the hallway would be a
better location for the stat but that rad has a TRV fitted. Am I alright in

I suspect the living room is the right location -- it's just that
its radiator is relatively too big. You can shrink it by draping
something over it to reduce the heat it gives off.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:32:33 +0000, John wrote:

A sort of an unintended side-effect of the desire to cut our bills is
that the living room seems to reach the required temperature of 20C
quite easily and the stat then shuts off the boiler, resulting in the
rest of the house being cold - or at least colder than son in his
bedroom doing his homework, daughter in her bedroom, and anyone wanting
a shower, would like it to be.

The programmer/roomstat thingy is wireless so I can move it with minimal
disruption but the living room rad has no valves

It should have lockshield valves on the rad(s) - just that they shouldn't
have control knobs you can operate by hand. instead they'll either have
blank plastic covers over a shaft with flats on it you can turn with a
small spanner, wrench or the knob of an equivalent adjustable valve, or
some have a brass hexagonal head cap which unscrews to reveal an
Allen-head adjuster for the valve. Either way if you close one of these
all the way then back it open a fraction you should find a point where the
radiator heats up fully, but a bit slower, giving the other rads in the
house a chance to heat up fully. You should also have TRVs on most if not
all of the other rads if you're serious about being 'green'.



--
YAPH http://yaph.co.uk

Never believe anyone who claims to be a liar

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:26:10 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

Is the system balanced and the radiators properly sized for the rooms they
are in? With both of those correct the house should heat up evenly, but if
there are lot of people in the living room all chucking out heat that room
will stay warm as the rest of the house cools.

The house should heat up evenly, provided solar gains are even. This
can be nearly the case in some locations, but in others solar gains
are an important factor.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:14:57 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

The house should heat up evenly, provided solar gains are even. This
can be nearly the case in some locations, but in others solar gains
are an important factor.

More important is the weather that day and it's not just gains but losses
as well. So pick an overcast day that isn't particulary cold or windy to
check the balance of the CH system.

--
Cheers
Dave.

YAPH wrote:
On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:32:33 +0000, John wrote:

about lockshield valves on radiators

Either way if you close one of these
all the way then back it open a fraction you should find a point where the
radiator heats up fully, but a bit slower, giving the other rads in the
house a chance to heat up fully.

Isn't that oversimplifying things to the point where it's misleading?
Surely the purpose of balancing radiators is to ensure that the flow
rate, and thus the average temperature of the radiator, is correct under
steady state conditions - not some arbitrary transitional ones.
"Correct" may mean "original design value", or it may be a modified
value if the design was wrong.

If the original design called for rooms to be maintained at different
temperatures, it is, of course, impossible to achieve if the outside
temperature changes from the design value unless the master thermostat
is in the room with the highest design temperature. For example, a
system designed for 20C in the lounge and 15C in a hall with 0C outside
will still need a quarter of the maximum output in the lounge when the
outside is at 15C, but the hall will need none. So if the thermostat is
in the hall, the trv in the lounge can open as far as it likes, but the
boiler will still be resolutely off.



--
Kevin Poole
****Use current date to reply (e.g. )****

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:09:49 +0000, Kevin Poole wrote:

Isn't that oversimplifying things to the point where it's misleading?

Er, no :-)

Surely the purpose of balancing radiators is to ensure that the flow
rate, and thus the average temperature of the radiator, is correct under
steady state conditions - not some arbitrary transitional ones.
"Correct" may mean "original design value", or it may be a modified
value if the design was wrong.

Surely the aim is to get the rooms to correct (i.e. desired)
temperatures. If it means the living room (with the 'stat in) taking longer
to get up to temperature that may be better than having some rooms being
too cold all the time.

If the original design called for rooms to be maintained at different
temperatures, it is, of course, impossible to achieve if the outside
temperature changes from the design value unless the master thermostat
is in the room with the highest design temperature. For example, a
system designed for 20C in the lounge and 15C in a hall with 0C outside
will still need a quarter of the maximum output in the lounge when the
outside is at 15C, but the hall will need none. So if the thermostat is
in the hall, the trv in the lounge can open as far as it likes, but the
boiler will still be resolutely off.

Indeed.

On the other hand if there's an additional source of heat (e.g.
open fire) in the lounge then if the stat's in the lounge the rest of the
house will go cold when the fire's on. Sometimes you just can't win!

Basically the typical system is a crude approximation to an ideal system,
so will end up as some sort of compromise. The question then is what sort
of compromise is the least worst for the inhabitants.

--
YAPH http://yaph.co.uk

Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
and Pop Psychologists are from Uranus

YAPH wrote:

8------

On the other hand if there's an additional source of heat (e.g.
open fire) in the lounge then if the stat's in the lounge the rest of
the house will go cold when the fire's on. Sometimes you just can't
win!

8------

What about two 'stats wired in parallel? One in sitting room (with open
fire) and one in, say, the dining room. This way both rooms have to be
at temperature before heating shuts down and either room can start it
up again. (Assuming radiator 'stats fitted all round.)

Is there anything wrong with this?

Edgar

"Edgar" wrote in message
...
YAPH wrote:

8------

On the other hand if there's an additional source of heat (e.g.
open fire) in the lounge then if the stat's in the lounge the rest of
the house will go cold when the fire's on. Sometimes you just can't
win!

8------

What about two 'stats wired in parallel? One in sitting room (with open
fire) and one in, say, the dining room. This way both rooms have to be
at temperature before heating shuts down and either room can start it
up again. (Assuming radiator 'stats fitted all round.)

Is there anything wrong with this?

No and you can get twin channel wireless stats just for that purpose.
It will not save fuel of course as the heating will be on more often.



Edgar

dennis@home wrote:

"Edgar" wrote in message
...
YAPH wrote:

8------

On the other hand if there's an additional source of heat (e.g.
open fire) in the lounge then if the stat's in the lounge the rest
of the house will go cold when the fire's on. Sometimes you just
can't win!

8------

What about two 'stats wired in parallel? One in sitting room (with
open fire) and one in, say, the dining room. This way both rooms have
to be at temperature before heating shuts down and either room can
start it up again. (Assuming radiator 'stats fitted all round.)

Is there anything wrong with this?

No and you can get twin channel wireless stats just for that purpose.
It will not save fuel of course as the heating will be on more often.


Thank you. I'll consider those wireless thermostats, but I was thinking
of using ordinary cheap wired ones - in this bungalow wiring isn't
difficult and I think this is going to be a bit of an experiment.

I'm not trying to save fuel but to maintain all rooms at reasonable
temperatures automatically (19C in sitting room, dining room and hall
and 17C in bedrooms - which may turn out too low but seems a good
starting point and satisfactory at present).

In fact I think it may save fuel too because when both main rooms are
satisfied the boiler and pump will go right off instead of cycling and
overheating the kitchen, hall and bathroom as at present.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the main rooms, as the rads
have TRVs. If I open them fully and rely on the room thermostat one
room could overheat while the other is still trying to get there. So it
seems I need to set the TRVs to switch off at a slightly higher
temperature than the room 'stats to limit the rise.

Zoning the bungalow might be a better solution but that would mean
lifting floor boards and disruptive things like that and it's just not
going to happen at present.

Edgar

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:44:03 +0000 someone who may be Edgar
wrote this:-

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the main rooms, as the rads
have TRVs. If I open them fully and rely on the room thermostat one
room could overheat while the other is still trying to get there. So it
seems I need to set the TRVs to switch off at a slightly higher
temperature than the room 'stats to limit the rise.

There would presumably be relatively little disruption in fitting a
motorised valve near each radiator, controlled by a thermostat in
that room. If the auxiliary contact on either valve, or both of
them, is calling for heat that activates the system. These two rooms
are then controlled and the other rooms will be offered heat
whenever one or both of these rooms is being heated.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:44:03 +0000 someone who may be Edgar
wrote this:-

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the main rooms, as the rads
have TRVs. If I open them fully and rely on the room thermostat one
room could overheat while the other is still trying to get there. So it
seems I need to set the TRVs to switch off at a slightly higher
temperature than the room 'stats to limit the rise.

There would presumably be relatively little disruption in fitting a
motorised valve near each radiator, controlled by a thermostat in
that room. If the auxiliary contact on either valve, or both of
them, is calling for heat that activates the system. These two rooms
are then controlled and the other rooms will be offered heat
whenever one or both of these rooms is being heated.

Another option to consider might be the Honewell CM-zone system
http://www.cm-zone.com/application.php?language=en. It's a combination of
a CM67z wireless programmer and HR80 TRV's with radio transmitters. I've no
experience of it, we did think about it as an option a while ago and
eliminated for various reasons including cost but it is quite an ingenious
system.

--
Mike Clarke

David Hansen wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:44:03 +0000 someone who may be Edgar
wrote this:-

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the main rooms, as the
rads have TRVs. If I open them fully and rely on the room thermostat
one room could overheat while the other is still trying to get there.
So it seems I need to set the TRVs to switch off at a slightly higher
temperature than the room 'stats to limit the rise.

There would presumably be relatively little disruption in fitting a
motorised valve near each radiator, controlled by a thermostat in
that room. If the auxiliary contact on either valve, or both of
them, is calling for heat that activates the system. These two rooms
are then controlled and the other rooms will be offered heat
whenever one or both of these rooms is being heated.



Thanks David.

I didn't think I could get acceptable looking cheap motorised valves
small enough to fit within the existing pipework constraints (pipes
come straight up from under the floor into the rad valves). I should
have thought of this before we had new carpets.

I'd need four because the sitting room has three radiators. So cost is
also a factor.

Edgar

The message
from Edgar contains these words:

YAPH wrote:

8------

On the other hand if there's an additional source of heat (e.g.
open fire) in the lounge then if the stat's in the lounge the rest of
the house will go cold when the fire's on. Sometimes you just can't
win!

8------

What about two 'stats wired in parallel? One in sitting room (with open
fire) and one in, say, the dining room. This way both rooms have to be
at temperature before heating shuts down and either room can start it
up again. (Assuming radiator 'stats fitted all round.)

Is there anything wrong with this?

The usual caveats about setting up TRVs in opposition to room stats
apply so when the additional source of heating in the sitting room isn't
on the sitting room thermostat should control the boiler with the TRVs
in the sitting room turned to maximum and in the dining room the room
stat should be turned down and the TRVs set. With the additional heating
on the conditions for each room need to be reversed.

--
Roger Chapman