Hello,

My downstairs radiator pipes go into the concrete floor and run
along three of the four walls in the room. This means that they must
be running back and forth the length and width of the house. I am
concerned that these unlagged pipes must be losing a lot of heat into
the concrete floor.

Since we are decorating, I wondered about re-doing the plumbing at the
same time. The only way I could see was to drop pipes from upstairs.
However this would mean that each drop would require its own drain and
I worried that lagged pipes would be too thick to chase into a wall.

I read some old posts (2006) that were still on the newsserver in
which someone was recommended to bury his pipes in a concrete floor
after lagging them. Is this the best approach?

Would lagged pipes loose more heat when surrounded by concrete
compared to air? Is it best to keep them above the floor?

What other options are there? Hid the pipes behind the skirting board,
or aren't I allowed to do that in case someone puts a nail through?

Thanks,
Stephen.

Stephen wrote:
Hello,

My downstairs radiator pipes go into the concrete floor and run
along three of the four walls in the room. This means that they must
be running back and forth the length and width of the house. I am
concerned that these unlagged pipes must be losing a lot of heat into
the concrete floor.

Presuming that the pipework is copper:

I would be more worried about leaks in the pipework due the chemical
reaction between the concrete and copper - than heat loss!

Since we are decorating, I wondered about re-doing the plumbing at the
same time. The only way I could see was to drop pipes from upstairs.
However this would mean that each drop would require its own drain and
I worried that lagged pipes would be too thick to chase into a wall.

You don't lag the 'dropped' pipework (ugly) or 'bury' it in the walls (you
are just storing trouble)!

I read some old posts (2006) that were still on the newsserver in
which someone was recommended to bury his pipes in a concrete floor
after lagging them. Is this the best approach?

If you *MUST* bury copper pipes in concrete, then use the plastic coated
pipe and ensure that any joints are also protected by taping them.

Would lagged pipes loose more heat when surrounded by concrete
compared to air? Is it best to keep them above the floor?

Always best to keep things above a concrete floor - as for heat loss, heat
rises into the room.

What other options are there? Hid the pipes behind the skirting board,
or aren't I allowed to do that in case someone puts a nail through?

Unless you are using microbore, then you will have many problems in hiding
pipes behind the skirting - what about crossing door openings for starters.
You will also have problems hiding microbore as well!

On any exposed pipe-drops, simply box them in - or buy pipework trunking
(plastic)

Unbeliever.

Unbeliever wrote:
Stephen wrote:
Hello,

My downstairs radiator pipes go into the concrete floor and run
along three of the four walls in the room. This means that they must
be running back and forth the length and width of the house. I am
concerned that these unlagged pipes must be losing a lot of heat into
the concrete floor.

Presuming that the pipework is copper:

I would be more worried about leaks in the pipework due the chemical
reaction between the concrete and copper - than heat loss!

Since we are decorating, I wondered about re-doing the plumbing at the
same time. The only way I could see was to drop pipes from upstairs.
However this would mean that each drop would require its own drain and
I worried that lagged pipes would be too thick to chase into a wall.

You don't lag the 'dropped' pipework (ugly) or 'bury' it in the walls (you
are just storing trouble)!

I read some old posts (2006) that were still on the newsserver in
which someone was recommended to bury his pipes in a concrete floor
after lagging them. Is this the best approach?

If you *MUST* bury copper pipes in concrete, then use the plastic coated
pipe and ensure that any joints are also protected by taping them.

Would lagged pipes loose more heat when surrounded by concrete
compared to air? Is it best to keep them above the floor?

Always best to keep things above a concrete floor - as for heat loss, heat
rises into the room.

What other options are there? Hid the pipes behind the skirting board,
or aren't I allowed to do that in case someone puts a nail through?

Unless you are using microbore, then you will have many problems in hiding
pipes behind the skirting - what about crossing door openings for starters.
You will also have problems hiding microbore as well!

On any exposed pipe-drops, simply box them in - or buy pipework trunking
(plastic)

Unbeliever.


My pipes (I live in a bungalow) simply drop from the attic to the
radiators. In some cases they are hidden behind the curtains, where not
as we have emulsioned walls, no wallpaper) they are emulsioned as the
walls, so are hardly noticeable. Though, if money is no problem, perhaps
you could use the skirting board heating as seen on Dragon's Den.

On Sep 10, 10:42*am, Broadback wrote:
Unbeliever wrote:
Stephen wrote:
Hello,

My downstairs radiator pipes go into the concrete floor and run
along three of the four walls in the room. This means that they must
be running back and forth the length and width of the house. I am
concerned that these unlagged pipes must be losing a lot of heat into
the concrete floor.

Presuming that the pipework is copper:

I would be more worried about leaks in the pipework due the chemical
reaction between the concrete and copper - than heat loss!

Since we are decorating, I wondered about re-doing the plumbing at the
same time. The only way I could see was to drop pipes from upstairs.
However this would mean that each drop would require its own drain and
I worried that lagged pipes would be too thick to chase into a wall.

You don't lag the 'dropped' pipework (ugly) or 'bury' it in the walls (you
are just storing trouble)!

I read some old posts (2006) that were still on the newsserver in
which someone was recommended to bury his pipes in a concrete floor
after lagging them. Is this the best approach?

If you *MUST* bury copper pipes in concrete, then use the plastic coated
pipe and ensure that any joints are also protected by taping them.

Would lagged pipes loose more heat when surrounded by concrete
compared to air? Is it best to keep them above the floor?

Always best to keep things above a concrete floor - as for heat loss, heat
rises into the room.

What other options are there? Hid the pipes behind theskirtingboard,
or aren't I allowed to do that in case someone puts a nail through?

Unless you are using microbore, then you will have many problems in hiding
pipes behind theskirting- what about crossing door openings for starters.
You will also have problems hiding microbore as well!

On any exposed pipe-drops, simply box them in - or buy pipework trunking
(plastic)

Unbeliever.

My pipes (I live in a bungalow) simply drop from the attic to the
radiators. In some cases they are hidden behind the curtains, where not
as we have emulsioned walls, no wallpaper) they are emulsioned as the
walls, so are hardly noticeable. Though, if money is no problem, perhaps
you could use theskirtingboardheatingas seen on Dragon's Den.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or maybe one of the other skirting board heating systems now available
in the UK? Enter "skirting board heating" into Google, you should get
quite a choice ... Declared interest - I distribute one of them but
I'm not going to say which one!

On Sep 9, 10:35*pm, Stephen
wrote:
Hello,

My downstairs radiator pipes go into the concrete floor and run
along three of the four walls in the room. This means that they must
be running back and forth the length and width of the house. I am
concerned that these unlagged pipes must be losing a lot of heat into
the concrete floor.

Since we are decorating, I wondered about re-doing the plumbing at the
same time. The only way I could see was to drop pipes from upstairs.
However this would mean that each drop would require its own drain and
I worried that lagged pipes would be too thick to chase into a wall.

I read some old posts (2006) that were still on the newsserver in
which someone was recommended to bury his pipes in a concrete floor
after lagging them. Is this the best approach?

Would lagged pipes loose more heat when surrounded by concrete
compared to air? Is it best to keep them above the floor?

What other options are there? Hid the pipes behind the skirting board,
or aren't I allowed to do that in case someone puts a nail through?

Thanks,
Stephen.


Corrosion is only a problem when the concrete contains flyash.

Pipes losing heat: radiators are designed to lose heat from the pipe
to the air, and pipe heat does much the same, so is not normally a
problem.


NT

wrote:
On Sep 9, 10:35 pm, Stephen
wrote:
Hello,

My downstairs radiator pipes go into the concrete floor and run
along three of the four walls in the room. This means that they must
be running back and forth the length and width of the house. I am
concerned that these unlagged pipes must be losing a lot of heat into
the concrete floor.

Since we are decorating, I wondered about re-doing the plumbing at the
same time. The only way I could see was to drop pipes from upstairs.
However this would mean that each drop would require its own drain and
I worried that lagged pipes would be too thick to chase into a wall.

I read some old posts (2006) that were still on the newsserver in
which someone was recommended to bury his pipes in a concrete floor
after lagging them. Is this the best approach?

Would lagged pipes loose more heat when surrounded by concrete
compared to air? Is it best to keep them above the floor?

What other options are there? Hid the pipes behind the skirting board,
or aren't I allowed to do that in case someone puts a nail through?

Thanks,
Stephen.


Corrosion is only a problem when the concrete contains flyash.


Total ********. All pip[es corode when there is a mixture of air and
water, and any acid makes things worse. Fortunately screed sis fairly
alkaline, so tats on there, but there is still a possibility of dampness
due to absorbed moisture.

Pipes losing heat: radiators are designed to lose heat from the pipe
to the air, and pipe heat does much the same, so is not normally a
problem.


More ********. especially if the pipe is buried in uninsulated floor
covered in carpeting, which provides the main thermal barrier to the
cold ground.

All pipes buried in concrete should ideally be wrapped in some form of
mechanical and chemical and thermal barrier. Typically split foam is
good - before being buried in concrete. Otherwise thermal differential
expansion may rip the pipes apart, and heat loss will be quite bad.

The corrosion aspect is probably the lesser problem, but its still not
good to leave pipes in contact with anything whose chemical composition
and humidity content is unknown and variable.


NT

On Sep 12, 11:27*am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 9, 10:35 pm, Stephen
wrote:
Hello,

My downstairs radiator pipes go into the concrete floor and run
along three of the four walls in the room. This means that they must
be running back and forth the length and width of the house. I am
concerned that these unlagged pipes must be losing a lot of heat into
the concrete floor.

Since we are decorating, I wondered about re-doing the plumbing at the
same time. The only way I could see was to drop pipes from upstairs.
However this would mean that each drop would require its own drain and
I worried that lagged pipes would be too thick to chase into a wall.

I read some old posts (2006) that were still on the newsserver in
which someone was recommended to bury his pipes in a concrete floor
after lagging them. Is this the best approach?

Would lagged pipes loose more heat when surrounded by concrete
compared to air? Is it best to keep them above the floor?

What other options are there? Hid the pipes behind the skirting board,
or aren't I allowed to do that in case someone puts a nail through?

Thanks,
Stephen.

Corrosion is only a problem when the concrete contains flyash.

Total ********. All pip[es corode when there is a mixture of air and
water,

but not to a problematic extent

and any acid makes things worse.

concrete of course is alkaline


Fortunately screed sis fairly
alkaline, so tats on there, but there is still a possibility of dampness
due to absorbed moisture.

yes, which doesnt lead to corrosion in plain mixes without flyash.
We've been thru all this before.


Pipes losing heat: radiators are designed to lose heat from the pipe
to the air, and pipe heat does much the same, so is not normally a
problem.

More ********.

Really? I didnt know there was some fundamental difference between the
rad giving off heat to the room and the tails doing the same

especially if the pipe is buried in uninsulated floor
covered in carpeting, which provides the main thermal barrier to the
cold ground.

in this case the heat output from pipe to room will be very much
smaller, and time delayed a little. To regard it as 'lost' heat is
incorrect.


All pipes buried in concrete should ideally be wrapped in some form of
mechanical and chemical and thermal barrier. Typically split foam is
good - before being buried in concrete.

ideally yes, but IRL lots arent

Otherwise thermal differential
expansion may rip the pipes apart,

true for very long runs, but not for your average house.

and heat loss will be quite bad.

no


The corrosion aspect is probably the lesser problem, but its still not
good to leave pipes in contact with anything whose chemical composition
and humidity content is unknown and variable.

concrete is no mystery. There are millions of houses with copper pipes
in contact with concrete on the exterior, where they get wet every
week. Safety inspectors are entirely unconcerned.


NT

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:42:57 -0700, meow2222 wrote:

On Sep 12, 11:27Â*am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
wrote:

Corrosion is only a problem when the concrete contains flyash.

Total ********. All pip[es corode when there is a mixture of air and
water,

but not to a problematic extent

and any acid makes things worse.

concrete of course is alkaline


Fortunately screed sis fairly
alkaline, so tats on there, but there is still a possibility of dampness
due to absorbed moisture.

yes, which doesnt lead to corrosion in plain mixes without flyash.
We've been thru all this before.

So if you've got pipes already embedded in concrete how do you know
whether it contains flyash or not?

There was a photo in CORGI's Gas Installer magazine this month showing a
length of copper pipe which had been installed running along an external
wall. One secrion of the pipe was in contact with mortar and had corroded
right through.


--
John Stumbles

Seagull Management
Management technique characterised by flying in, making a lot of noise,
crapping on everything, and then leaving.

On Sep 12, 9:56*pm, John Stumbles wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:42:57 -0700, meow2222 wrote:
On Sep 12, 11:27*am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
wrote:

Corrosion is only a problem when the concrete contains flyash.

Total ********. All pip[es corode when there is a mixture of air and
water,

but not to a problematic extent

and any acid makes things worse.

concrete of course is alkaline

Fortunately screed sis fairly
alkaline, so tats on there, but there is still a possibility of dampness
due to absorbed moisture.

yes, which doesnt lead to corrosion in plain mixes without flyash.
We've been thru all this before.

So if you've got pipes already embedded in concrete how do you know
whether it contains flyash or not?

If you come up with a clever answer, let us know.


There was a photo in CORGI's Gas Installer magazine this month showing a
length of copper pipe which had been installed running along an external
wall. One secrion of the pipe was in contact with mortar and had corroded
right through.

If this were genuinely a big problem from a safety point of view, why
are the resulting incidents so rare?

I'm sure we all realise that financially interested parties love to
tell people how dangerous old equipment is, and how we collectively
need to spend a small fortune with their trade members to get it all
put right. So as grown ups we can hardly take one picture as evidence
that this is some big problem waiting to blow thousands of us up.

In fact, as far as corgi regd gas safety inspectors are concerned its
a non issue. There's a clue.

If laying new, yes, wrap it, but I've seen no evidence that existing
concreted pipes have any more injury rate than at the rarity level.
OTOH there are other common caues of regular injury and death in
houses that do deserve a little time and money spending on them.


NT